RE: Difference between submissive and bottom

RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (Full Version)

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GrandpaLash -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/13/2005 12:57:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadameBette Submission is a state of mind. The submissive freely gives over control to the Dominant. Wants to care for him/her and meet that person’s needs without thought of whether theirs will be met. You don’t have to ‘love’ the Dom/me but you do have to want to surrender yourself to them and accept whatever it is he/she requires of you without reservation. (I’m talking within the framework of any limits that were agreed to before entering into the D/s relationship before anybody gets a hair up the butt.) ~ Bette It probably won't satisfy everyone, or even most, but this, IMNSHO, covers it beautifully. Grandpa Lash

nella -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/13/2005 7:13:56 AM)
The only thing i disagree whit is that i do not think that it is nessesary to have to not care if your needs are met in return. To surender yes, to be totaly slefless, no.

littlebuttercup -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/13/2005 8:01:23 AM)
i'd like to add another perspective to this debate. that of a daughter. i currently have a Daddy and i submit to him 24/7, mind , body and soul. so, while i am submissive to him in the usual sense (ie: housework etc), our relationship has another dynamic to it. he is in charge of me the way a father is his child, i am directed and nurtured. i have a certain amount of independance, which is essential for my emotional growth, but ultimately he is in charge. sexually, he is somewhat sadistic and takes from me what he wishes and i am available to him sexually at all times. (meaning i cannot refuse) although sometimes in a sexual sense i am extremely vulnerable in a childlike way and he senses that and knows that i am not in a headspace for physical pain. to me, there is only one Daddy. if he were to offer me to another Dom/me for service i would submit to them, but it would not have the same Daddy/little girl quality. i would never feel comfortable calling someone else Daddy.

MidnightWriter -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/13/2005 8:09:49 AM)
Intriguing topic - thanks, BeachMystress and subgreg for bringing it up here. To me, there's a clear difference between submissive and bottom, and they don't always match. A bottom is one who enjoys painplay for the sake of that painplay - a masochist. A submissive is one who wishes to give control, to some degree or other, to another - who wishes to be dominated. I've known many non-submissive bottoms, and several dominant bottoms; there is no conflict, they're entirely different axiis (or whatever the plural for axis is - I'm still on first cuppa this morning). I've bottomed myself, and while a good top can take me to endorphin heaven, I still prefer the top end of things too much to consider myself a switch. There's some range in being bottom, about how much sensation is wished for, or can be handled. There's also some variety in what type of sensations are enjoyed - some like singletails, some like canes, some like thuddy, others prefer OTK spankings, but when all is said and done, they're pretty much all bottoms. There is some feeling of competition, with extra respect given to the heavier bottoms, but I feel that this is really a mistake. I've played heavy, and I've played light, and as a top, my thrill is in getting them to that point - not necessarily in how much work it takes to get them there. As a top, it's the reaction I feed off of, not whether I got them there with 10 swats with a paddle or 30 minutes with a singletail. Hmm... lemme think this through. I'm functional with a cane or a paddle, but I really shine with a flogger or a singletail. I'm not sure which came first here, but upon reflection, I really prefer using the tools I'm really good with - is that because I'm good with what I love, or because I love what I'm good with? I've no particular interest in getting better with a cane, but increasing my skill with a flogger or singletail is a constant goal, and I couldn't really say why. This'll require some deeper thought on my part. A submissive can be someone who cedes control for 2 one-hour sessions a year, or who cedes control frequently - and, rarely, who cedes control 24/7. It's easy to marginalize or forget about the session players when everyone's talking about 24/7, but it's a mistake to do so - I came up as a session player, and would not consider collaring someone I'd not done several sessions with. I've known a few who tried the meet, negotiate, 24/7 route, foregoing the sessions, but I've never known anyone for whom it worked out well. I'll concede that it's possible, but I believe that for most, it's a fantasy. Nor do all truly desire 24/7, as hot a fantasy as that is. Many are perfectly fulfilled with d/s several times a week, while most of life is lived in an egalitarian partnership. I've seen that sneered at recently (in another venue), but I believe that the majority of people who experience d/s actually live here - and there's not a damn thing wrong with that. 24/7 takes a lot of energy and attention that has to come from something else - and to those who do not crave it, it's a poor bargain. IME, at the extreme end of submission lives the slave - someone who has ceded all control of their lives, in all aspects. Again, a much better fantasy than reality for most, and many who crave the experience will find that it's not as much to their liking as they'd thought. Most who crave this cannot live it for long if they find it - and there are far too many seeking it for a sense of competition or one-upmanship instead of because they are driven toward it from within. Submission is much more difficult to categorize than bottoming is; perhaps that's part of it's mystique. It's likely also part of the reason it can seem so competitive within the community, which is a pitfall best avoided - there is no more pleasure in trying to live up to more submission than one is really happy with than there is in accepting more pain than one is happy with. Good luck with your soul-searching, subgreg. As I'm sure BeachMystress is well aware, nobody else's answer will fit you - you'll have to find your own answer to her question. Only your answer will work - another's answer will be a poor fit to your soul. nella - d/s is not, at its best, a quic pro quo situation. You should submit because that submission itself meets your needs - not in exchange for something else that meets your needs. Look for a situation in which you happily give what another wants to take, and happily take what they wish to give, and you'll find that this works better for both of you than "I'll do this, but only if you do that". Explore and find out what you desire, what you're okay with, and what you seek to avoid. Once you understand your own desires, you'll be able to negotiate for those desires to be met in a relationship with someone whose desires compliment your own.

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/13/2005 9:12:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stickler Master - The person who is served. The person guiding the spiritual journey of the relationship. Slave - The person providing service. The person opening their spirit to guidance. Except for the fact that Masters/Mistresses can and do often provide services AND open their spirit to guidance. Many slaves make excellent spiritual guides.

ProtagonistLily -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/13/2005 9:39:23 AM)
quote: Except for the fact that Masters/Mistresses can and do often provide services AND open their spirit to guidance. Many slaves make excellent spiritual guides. Could you please expand on this. I'm not really quite sure what you mean. Lily

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/14/2005 7:12:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily quote: Except for the fact that Masters/Mistresses can and do often provide services AND open their spirit to guidance. Many slaves make excellent spiritual guides. Could you please expand on this. I'm not really quite sure what you mean. Lily Opening your spirit to being guided/being a spirit guide is independent of being oriented as a sub/dom or whatever. Many dominants open themselves up to being guided and growing in Ds relationships, they don't start out fully aware and spiritually grown and it's one of those constant processes thing. As far as service, lots of doms do service for their subs. Service does not equal submission. Service is just doing something that needs to get done, which lightens the load for someone else. Doms can/do do this, even for their subs sometimes.

nella -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/14/2005 9:23:28 AM)
what i mean is not a if i do this you do this kind of thing. What i mean is that for me a totaly one sided relationship would not work. If i give my love to somone, i would only do that to somone that would love me in return, and i consider me and my needs inportant as well, that means that a situation where the Dom deside what we shall watch on TV, what we shall do, what we shall eat and so on always, that is not for me. That do not mean that i think a relationship like that is wrong, only that it is not what i want. But that do notmean that i am not submissive.

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/14/2005 10:15:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2 Opening your spirit to being guided/being a spirit guide is independent of being oriented as a sub/dom or whatever. Many dominants open themselves up to being guided and growing in Ds relationships, they don't start out fully aware and spiritually grown and it's one of those constant processes thing. Oh hell yes... Doms are not be alls and end alls of anything. They have as much growing and learning and experiencing to do as any one. I have learned so much in even my short time with my slave. She has taught me a patience and a grace and a style that is simply amazing. I take much from our time together. quote: As far as service, lots of doms do service for their subs. Service does not equal submission. Service is just doing something that needs to get done, which lightens the load for someone else. Doms can/do do this, even for their subs sometimes. Again, hell yes! I describe myself as a "service top." When E bats her lashes and says, "I would simply melt if someone would rub a bit of lotion on my back," I hop up and down like an excited puppy. Yet were she to request such a thing with even the slightest hint of command in her voice, I would buck like a wild bronco. The same goes for when I carry my slave's heavy bag out to her car. I smile and tell her that her service is not heavy lifting... Taggard

BeachMystress -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/15/2005 11:29:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MidnightWriter Hmm... lemme think this through. I'm functional with a cane or a paddle, but I really shine with a flogger or a singletail. I'm not sure which came first here, but upon reflection, I really prefer using the tools I'm really good with - is that because I'm good with what I love, or because I love what I'm good with? I've no particular interest in getting better with a cane, but increasing my skill with a flogger or singletail is a constant goal, and I couldn't really say why. This'll require some deeper thought on my part. I think you end up being good at the things you like.. so I think you're good with floggers/singletail because you love them. When we are interested in something, we tend to have more patience and seek out knowledge. CBT is one of my areas of fascination. I spent a lot of time learning about the penis and how to safely manipulate it after the first CBT experience I had. Until I tried it, I had no clue that it was something I was going to absolutely love. I left my first real CBT experience feeling lightheaded with the desire to do it again. It had been surface scratching and some light squeezing. I'd wanted to do more, but wasn't sure how much the balls could take. I came home and started researching.

FangsNfeet -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/16/2005 4:05:44 PM)
I'm a Dom who likes pain almost as much as I like giving it. It dosen't make me a sub nor a switch. I still stay in controll and direct what I want and how to do it. I may have you in a collar, chain, blind folded and bound by suspension ropes/pully system, but still have you biteing me hard and or having your nails claw down my skin. I'm a little massochistic myself but I'm not all that good at taking orders. [image]local://upfiles/68772/E8998CCC5DE647E187485D08B0FDBF32.jpg[/image]

stormsfate -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/16/2005 5:48:56 PM)
quote: A slave is submissive but in that case i believe a slave is only a slave when they are owned. Otherwise they are submissives with slave tendencies. Hmmm...I would beg to differ on this point. There are any number of slaves who aren't submissive in the least, although they do submit to their owner. Its a different need, although having a need to serve and and a need to submit certainly can go hand in hand. best regards, fate

onceburned -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/17/2005 7:55:26 AM)
quote: There are any number of slaves who aren't submissive in the least, although they do submit to their owner. Its a different need, I think there are many submissives who are not submissive in the least, except in that they submit to their dominant. As some of the more feisty subs point out - just because they are submissive doesn't mean they are submissive to everyone or even to any dominant.... just to their dominant. I am inclined to agree with SubGreg that submissive and slave are part of a continuum and that a slave submits (surrenders) totally. I would even go so far as to say that just as a person cannot be a slave without a master, a person cannot be a submissive without a dominant. A sub without a partner is either a bottom, or is someone with 'submissive tendencies' waiting to bloom.

stormsfate -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/17/2005 8:16:09 AM)
quote: I think there are many submissives who are not submissive in the least, except in that they submit to their dominant. As some of the more feisty subs point out - just because they are submissive doesn't mean they are submissive to everyone or even to any dominant.... just to their dominant. It was not my intent to imply that submissives will submit to just anyone, but rather to point out that generally the need inside is to submit...a slave very well may not have any need to submit whatsoever. The need there might be to serve or to be owned. Very differing needs. best regards, fate

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/17/2005 8:20:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stormsfate Hmmm...I would beg to differ on this point. There are any number of slaves who aren't submissive in the least, although they do submit to their owner. Its a different need, although having a need to serve and and a need to submit certainly can go hand in hand. I would take that even one step further and say that the needs to be owned, submit, and/or serve are actually three seperate needs that often, though not always, go hand in hand (in hand). Taggard

BeachMystress -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/17/2005 10:28:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: onceburned I would even go so far as to say that just as a person cannot be a slave without a master, a person cannot be a submissive without a dominant. A sub without a partner is either a bottom, or is someone with 'submissive tendencies' waiting to bloom. You've just hit one of my.. not quite peeves, but one of the things I am always pointing out to people. If they have never submitted to someone, even if they feel very very submissive, they are not a sub. They are a person with submissive fantasy who think it would translate well to real life. A lot of these "subs" are just horrified by their first real experience, and go back to that fantasy life, never to submit to other than their dreamed up scenarios again. They want to be sub, they long to try it, but they are NOT sub until they've done it and found it fits them. It is like someone claiming to be a pilot without ever flying. You have to perform the act to be given the title. I very strongly believe that a slave without a Mistress/Master/Owner is not a slave. They may be someone who has been a slave in the past and would like to again or someone who has slave like tendencies, but without someone they slave to, they are not currently a slave. I never take someone who calls themselves a slave seriously unless they are in a relationship. The ones I believe are the ones who say they were a slave at one time and would like to repeat that experience or who have already been submissive and say they want to find someone who can bring out a greater commitment in them. If you tell me you're a slave, point me to your owner. Otherwise use the phrasing that you wish to be a slave. If you feel you're currently a slave but don't have an owner.. great.. send all of your spare cash to the American Cancer Society. That's an order. Oh gee.. not doing it? Not very slave like. Oh wait.. you say you're not MY slave? Whose are you? No ones? Then how are you a slave? sigh Slave implies ownership and total obedience. You're not a slave without those, no matter how much you like the idea. Reading your statement, and considering what my boy has expressed to me, I do find myself agreeing that someone who submits without being in some sort of continuing relationship is a bottom. They do not care about the person they are with or who is doing the action to them. They just want to submit. While they may be giving the person they are with temporary submission, it is to fulfil their own need, rather than the Dominants. If it were not all about their own need, we'd see a lot less ProDomme, since their wouldn't be men who needed to submit so much that they are willing to pay for it. (This of course excludes financial fetishes) There is a line in there somewhere, and I'll have to think more about this.

MidnightWriter -> RE: Difference between submissive and bottom (3/17/2005 11:58:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BeachMystress Reading your statement, and considering what my boy has expressed to me, I do find myself agreeing that someone who submits without being in some sort of continuing relationship is a bottom. They do not care about the person they are with or who is doing the action to them. They just want to submit. While they may be giving the person they are with temporary submission, it is to fulfil their own need, rather than the Dominants. If it were not all about their own need, we'd see a lot less ProDomme, since their wouldn't be men who needed to submit so much that they are willing to pay for it. (This of course excludes financial fetishes) There is a line in there somewhere, and I'll have to think more about this. I dunno - a 24/7 TPE slave is still there to fulfill their own needs, not solely because they want life to be easier for the dominant there. I've never believed in altruism. So, are you saying that someone who hands control over themselves over for just an hour or an evening isn't really a submissive, but is a bottom? Personally, I see a difference between someone who receives painplay and someone who surrenders their will to me, even if temporarily. A bottom who says "well, I like sting more than I like thud, but I'll leave it to you to decide what toys get used" is submitting, even if that's not the focus of the situation. If someone kneels at my feet and awaits my orders, they're submitting - even if it's only for an hour. I've always thought of "submissive" as "someone who submits". If you feel a need to draw a line between date-oriented and long-term, or sometimes vs. 24/7, it's gonna be difficult to decide exactly where that line should be.

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