RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism

RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (Full Version)

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Invictus754 -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 3:45:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aviinterra Oh man I just had to laugh at that one. Sorry, but the U.S. came into WWII when the Nazis could no longer afford fighting with the endless tide of Russians. It was the Soviets that won the war, not the U.S. ... Just my 2 cents here. The SOVIETS won the war? If Hitler had moved a little faster against Russia and attacked in the summer, the Nazis wouldn't have been stopped. The Nazis were killed by the winter - and if they hadn't been, Leningrad would be Leninheim and Moskow would be Moskowberg and both would be speaking German. If Japan hadn't attacked the US, we would have happily dealt with the united states of Germany which would have owned Europe, North Africa (down to about Cape Horn, I bet) and most of Russia. They would have been over more land than the Romans.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 3:51:37 PM)
Since things didn't happen like that, whats your point ?

NorthernGent -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 4:00:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Invictus754 quote: ORIGINAL: aviinterra Oh man I just had to laugh at that one. Sorry, but the U.S. came into WWII when the Nazis could no longer afford fighting with the endless tide of Russians. It was the Soviets that won the war, not the U.S. ... Just my 2 cents here. The SOVIETS won the war? If Hitler had moved a little faster against Russia and attacked in the summer, the Nazis wouldn't have been stopped. The Nazis were killed by the winter - and if they hadn't been, Leningrad would be Leninheim and Moskow would be Moskowberg and both would be speaking German. If Japan hadn't attacked the US, we would have happily dealt with the united states of Germany which would have owned Europe, North Africa (down to about Cape Horn, I bet) and most of Russia. They would have been over more land than the Romans. No. Russia was/is too vast to conquer. Plenty of men in reserve. Also, how is a country of 80 million people (one which didn't even gear up for total war) going to pin down the USSR, France and Britain for 20 years. It was never going to happen. If you remember that Britain had demilitiarised between the two world wars to the point where we had a catapult to fight invaders off, and they still couldn't take this island, you'll appreciate that over a 20 year period, German hegemony was not on the cards. Another key point, the Nazis were thickheads and the economy would have collapsed like a pack of cards within 10 years because they didn't have the first clue how to run a country - they were a collection of street-thugs, social misfits and sadistic life-long, military types - politicians they were not.

meatcleaver -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 4:01:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Sure, Europe was our forward defensive position. But, please remind me ... how did we end up there in the first place? Germany declared war on you. To take care of an agressive European power called Germany? And then to prevent another aggressive European power (Russia) from taking over the Continent as well? A very American perception. Russia wanted buffer states because it had been invaded twice by Germany in a little over twenty years. It was a defensive position. Rational American commentators knew that. Throughout the cold war Russia proved less aggressive than the USA. Oh, btw ... why didn't Europe take care of that little bit of genocide down in Bosnia, when yet another aggressive little European country started acting up? I know Americans love to dsee themselves as riding to the rescue all the time but trying to use military resources without US OK is pointless which is why I'm against US military on European soil. If there was going to be a war it was going to be on our soil and it would have been our countries that would have been obliterated not yours. The sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons unto the 7th generation. Take care of your own business, and we wouldn't have ever been in Europe with military forces. Yes you would. Germany declared war on you that was why you entered the war, not for our benefit. Why do you think you entered in 1942 and not 1939. To help us maybe? I travelled quite a bit in eastern Europe in the seventies and I doubt there was any danger of the USSR attacking because they couldn't rely on their allies and they knew it. uh huh. You're talking about the historical period in which the US was seen as (and indeed was) the weaker of the two super-powers, immediately after the Vietnam war. When the words "hollow army" were an accurate description, and Carter's mambly-pambly foreign policy and indecisiveness lead directly to the current crop of Islamic terror states? Actually during the Vietnam war and before Carter. When you say Islamic terror states I assume you mean Iran. You have nothing but yourself to blame for Iran. You supported the brutal and oppressive regime of the Shah who oppressed every possible opposition apart from religious opposition so all the opposition to the Shah drifted towards the clerics. What the hell do you expect from a foreign policy like that? It is rediculous to assume the people who over threw an American supported regime to love Americans. When the Soviets had massive gains in Africa, and even South and Central America? What massive Soviet gains in Africa and Central America? If you are talking about Cuba, that again was your own fault. The Castro regime was not ideological in the beginning but America set up an embargo and refused to buy Cuban sugar so the Cubans sold it to Russia. The US then got pissed off with Cuba for that and has had a 45 year tantrum over Cuba. Well, if the Comecon populations feared the US at the time, it says wonders about the Soviet propaganda successes, because the US was a paper tiger at the time, unwilling and unable to protect itself, much less get aggressive with the Soviets in Eastern Europe. I doubt many Comecon populations feared the US. In East Germany, Hungary, Czech and Yugoslavia they were watching American programmes on TV and listening to western radio. I used to pay for my travels by taking extra pairs of Levis and grammophone records of western pop music on my travels. They were better than money Sounds to me like your travels behind the Iron Curtain - at the low point of the US's ability to protect Europe - might have simply been a training opportunity for you. Or that you were one of those people that Stalin and Lenin called "useful". It really wasn't that bad, people are people. Most knew that Russia wouldn't invade the west because they knew Russia wouldn't trust their so called allies to fight, though people were scared of events taking over and war starting which was the same fear in western Europe. As far as the Soviets ever "relying on their allies" .... tell me, what "allies"? Most of the Eastern European armies would have enjoyed the same degree of care and consideration that Soviet Punishment Battalions enjoyed during WWII - attacking with their backs covered by Soviet machinguns. How could Soviet punishment battalions work if then Soviets were arming a potential hostile army that would fight back? That was Russia's dilemma and the west knew it. Russia was happy to keep its buffer zone intact. They knew they were hated by the eastern half of Europe more than the western half of Europe. As always, you have nothing but propaganda, mis-information, and blind hatred to offer, meat. You have just given me drivel from years of propaganda to reply to. FirmKY

cyberdude611 -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 4:30:01 PM)
Going back to WW2. The US never wanted anything to do with that war. And Hitler wanted nothing to do with war against the US. Hitler wanted Europe, Britain, Northern Africa, and Russia. He had practically all of Europe, and he was making ground against the Brits. He was also just beginning to make moves in northern Africa. His mistake was attacking Russia when he did and how he did it. Had Hitler won what he wanted, it would have created a Nazi super-state. The US had also beat the Nazis in the race to develop the atom bomb. Hitler wanted that thing really bad. And he was very close to getting it. And he would have if German scientists like Einstein didn't defect to the US. The Nazis had a very efficient and very advanced war machine. The reason they lost was poor military strategy, and not any one thing that the Soviets did. The Soviets lost 30 million people in that war. The Nazis didn't lose anything even close to that many. So the Soviets payed a very, very high cost in just defending their country against that Nazi war machine. That eastern front pulled so many resources away from the west that the Brits and Americans were able to expose and penetrate the western front during the D-Day invasion. And thats what began the collpase of the Nazi regime. The Soviets didn't defeat Hitler. They only prevented him from gaining control of Russia. And they forced him to use up just enough of his resources that it allowed the US and UK to break into the western front. If it wasnt for the US, most of Europe would still be either under control of Germany or even by the Soviets. Since those areas conquored by Hitler would never have been liberated by the Allied forces who were committed to restoring Europe to its previous state.

meatcleaver -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 4:35:17 PM)
Not at all. Germany was not geared up to a long war, it didn't have the resources and it planned and expected a short war and a quick victory. As soon as it lost the Battle of Britain it was only a matter of time before Germany was defeated. Hitler speeded up that defeat by invading Russia. The reason the war was so long and brutal was because Hitler was willing to sacrifice every last German and completely destroy Germany in the bargain. And just because someone doesn't see the world through American eyes doesn't make them anti-American. If you were a Russian giving me their national myth I'd be equally robust in arguing with them.

aviinterra -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 4:42:31 PM)
quote: The reason they lost was poor military strategy, and not any one thing that the Soviets did. Nope. The Nazi soldiers were better trained, had better strategy over all- just like in WWI. In the end it was the lack of food, lack of munitions and lack of everything else that did the Germans in. And yes, granted, there was one large error- going into Russia. quote: The Soviets lost 30 million people in that war. The Nazis didn't lose anything even close to that many. Not a step back. That was the order Stalin gave. If a Red Army soldier ran back, he got shot by his own men instead of the Nazis. There were no heros nor bad men in WWII, everyone had and still has something to hide, including the U.S. and it's Allies, who knew WELL in advance about the concentration camps and did NOTHING. quote: So the Soviets payed a very, very high cost in just defending their country against that Nazi war machine. That eastern front pulled so many resources away from the west that the Brits and Americans were able to expose and penetrate the western front during the D-Day invasion. And thats what began the collpase of the Nazi regime. If this did not happen, and if Russia did not continue to push the Germans, and if the Germans concentrated as they should have on the western front, the U.S. and the Allies would have been defeated miserably, as happened during previous attempt at a D-Day style landing which ended in a massacre. Your quote above proves just one of the finer ways in which it was the Soviets that won the war. The Germans relied on technology during the whole war to keep them ahead, as well as a quick and suprising victory over their foes. Poland sent out it's cavalry against tanks and a single German tank could take out 10 from the U.S. side easily before dying of mechanical failure. When money ran out, so did the arms and the food and so the war ended, in a defeat that was very similar to what happened just years before in WWI.

cyberdude611 -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 4:45:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Not at all. Germany was not geared up to a long war, it didn't have the resources and it planned and expected a short war and a quick victory. As soon as it lost the Battle of Britain it was only a matter of time before Germany was defeated. Hitler speeded up that defeat by invading Russia. The reason the war was so long and brutal was because Hitler was willing to sacrifice every last German and completely destroy Germany in the bargain. You lose 30 million people in a war and you call that victory? Go to Russia today you won't find a single family who didn't lose a member of their family in that war. That war devastated Russia. The war also severely devastated Britain to a point that in 1947, a top British official sent a letter to President Harry Truman detailing how the British Navy could no longer provide any protection to the Northern Atlantic. That forced Truman to expand the US armed forces. And the Pentagon was then built in 1949 and he renamed the "War Department" to the "Defense Department." If anyone actually won world war 2, it was the US who ended up with control of the entire pacific ocean. And other than the cold war which ended up only expanding America's power, the US hasn't had any threats from any major power to this very day. The only threats America is dealing with today is from terrorists of the mid-east and dictators of oil nations. North Korea is a joke and everyone knows it. That tiny nation would never even win a war against South Korea alone.

KenDckey -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 5:23:23 PM)
Germany couldn't resupply its forces adequately. The USSR went vertiually unscathed in terms of its indurstry and natural resources. Since the Japanese didn't attack them they were able to pull fresh troops from the East and back up their forces on the west. The advent of the T34 Tank and the abundent supply of them and field artillery allowed them to fight the Panzers to a standstill (for every panzer killed 3-4 T34's and 8-10 M4 Shermans from the US on the west front). If I remember correctly the T34 was considered the best tank of WW2 by the Military Channel. The German's also had greater numbers of troops on the Eastern Front than the Western Front. That made it much easier for the Western Front Armies to combat the Germans. Even the History Channel and the Military Channel have given credit to the USSR for their efforts in gearing up and standing up to the Germans and in one case that I saw, to winning the war.

Sinergy -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 5:27:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger Frankly, with the Democrats voice of opposition only coming in the form of a meaningless non-binding resolution......the only thing left to do is await the construction of the Death Star and prepare for Darth Vader's arrival. While I agree with you in a sense, UtopianRanger, I did have a few disagreements. The Anti-War people in Congress are not a sufficient number to pass a binding resolution at this time. Attempting to do so dilutes their power and leaves the US citizen with the idea that Congress is a bunch of incompetent nitwits. Whereas passing a non-binding resolution that the pro-war goons cannot prevent draws a line in the sand which all the pro-war goons will be faced with when re-election comes up. Secondly, any binding resolution will be either ignored or vetoed by the Special Education Reject In Chief, so it wont do any good anyway. Took 6 years to get to where we are now, probably not a way to fix it in a hurry. Sinergy

caitlyn -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 6:12:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver You were not in Europe to defend Europe, we were your forward defensive position. I agree that the American army was not in Europe to defend Europe. I don't agree that you were a forward defensive position. If that were true, we wouldn't still be there. The Soviets were not a threat to western Europe. Supply would have been a serious issue. The only strategy open to the Soviets would have been a dash across Europe, with the infantry in their vehicles. They would have been easy meat to air power. The American army in Europe was there to keep the peace in Europe ... and is still there for the same reason. It might make you feel better about yourself to think that there was some sort of paranoia of the Soviets behind it ... if that gets you through the day, then go for it.

caitlyn -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 6:18:07 PM)
General response ... No single power, won the Second World War, nor could it have been won without any of the three major allied powers.

Sinergy -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 6:41:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Yes, America does prove to be a vicious enemy. It is difficult to forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki, both needless criminal acts for the sole purpose of warning off a potential enemy. While I love the rest of your post, meatcleaver, I did want to point out that while people seem to glom on to Hiroshima and Nagasaki as examples of the United States being egregious bastards, I believe more people died and more destruction happened when the United States tested a new theory of bombardment on the city of Dresden. This city was spared for most of the war because it contained priceless historical relics and had 0 military or economic status. Since it was the only unbombed hulk of a city left under German control, it got the firebomb tests. As far as Dominants who worry about what people think of them, I personally wonder who is in control in their relationships with other people. Replace the word Dominant with monkeyboy, and the concept remains the same. Sinergy

cloudboy -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 9:11:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The Soviet Union doesn't exist anymore precisely because of its military expansion! Its a wee bit more complicated than that. quote: Invictus754: The SOVIETS won the war? If Hitler had moved a little faster against Russia and attacked in the summer, the Nazis wouldn't have been stopped. The Nazis were killed by the winter - and if they hadn't been, Leningrad would be Leninheim and Moskow would be Moskowberg and both would be speaking German. If Japan hadn't attacked the US, we would have happily dealt with the united states of Germany which would have owned Europe, North Africa (down to about Cape Horn, I bet) and most of Russia. They would have been over more land than the Romans. This is a spurious argument. You can't use a hypothetical to debunk a historical reality. The USSR did defeat NAZI Germany by winning the Battle of Stalingrad and encircling and capturing Germany's Fifth Army. In WWII, the Soviets did the heavy lifting to defeat the Nazis, and the battle of Stalingrad was the turning point of the war. As an aside, one of the first questions leveled at me by my old Russian girlfriend in Leningrad was, "Why did you take so long to open up a second front?"

caitlyn -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 9:17:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Its a wee bit more complicated than that. Understatement of the year award ... [;)][;)]

Sinergy -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 9:47:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cyberdude611] You Europeans have a funny way of saying thanks for saving your ass when Hitler had you on your knees. Without the US, Britain, and Russia, all of Europe would be controlled by Nazis today. Heck, the French surrendered Paris without firing a shot. And you are telling me that Europe thinks that they dont need America? Is that why the German government is very much in favor of the US military bases to stay in their country? Or that the Czech republic just recently signed an agreement to allow US forces in their country? Didnt Kevin Kline make this point in the movie "A Fish Called Wanda"? Although, I have to admit, I tend to be an isolationish most of the time. Sinergy

wickednnc -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/15/2007 10:00:38 PM)
Capitalism and war -ever heard of Smedly Butler? While the name sounds like a joke, it's not. He was, and may still be, the most decorated marine in history. He tells a good story about capitalism and war. As for me? I just look at politicians crowing over shaving a few billion off medicare as a budget balancing act while authorizing something close to half a trillion to attack a country that never attacked us and try to balance the logic. I must be slow because I can't find any.

meatcleaver -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/16/2007 1:58:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Yes, America does prove to be a vicious enemy. It is difficult to forget Hiroshima and Nagasaki, both needless criminal acts for the sole purpose of warning off a potential enemy. While I love the rest of your post, meatcleaver, I did want to point out that while people seem to glom on to Hiroshima and Nagasaki as examples of the United States being egregious bastards, I believe more people died and more destruction happened when the United States tested a new theory of bombardment on the city of Dresden. This city was spared for most of the war because it contained priceless historical relics and had 0 military or economic status. Since it was the only unbombed hulk of a city left under German control, it got the firebomb tests. As far as Dominants who worry about what people think of them, I personally wonder who is in control in their relationships with other people. Replace the word Dominant with monkeyboy, and the concept remains the same. Sinergy I feel the same way about Britain and the raids on Leipzig and Hamburg, both needless and both criminal acts against civilian populations.

meatcleaver -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/16/2007 2:03:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn quote: ORIGINAL: cloudboy Its a wee bit more complicated than that. Understatement of the year award ... [;)][;)] The Soviet system was rotten from the outset, even Lenin admitted it was an experiment that wouldn't work. I've mention it before, PJ O'Rourke said if the CIA sent an agent on a shopping trip to Moscow he would find the Soviets couldn't organise a shopping trip never mind a war. The whole place was falling apart by the 1970s. Having been there in '72, you could more or less buy the best hotel room in town for a pair of Levis and you could get a barrow load of roubles for one Beatles LP. It was kudos for a Russian to have the real thing. I actually sold ten Russian illegal copies of Beatle albums for five pounds each when I got back to England. That was a time when I had been earning fifteen pounds a week to save up to go to Russia. I reckon I missed my black market vocation.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Economic Decline of United States, Eruption of US Militarism (2/16/2007 2:23:22 AM)
A nameless poster says the Nazis were thickheads and didnt know how to run a country. Said poster needs to compare the conditions in Germany towards the end of the Weimar Republic, inflation at zillions of percentage points, large scale unemployment with those present when old Adolf got himself in a position to enact his expansionist genocidal plans. Leaving aside the sheer wickedness of the man, he must go down as the most remarkable politician of all time. Does anyone really believe that the Nazis intended to attack the UK ? Another point about the USSR, how many people are aware that in the early 20's there was a civil War and France and the UK sent troops to intervene on the White Russian side. That is why, at root, the Red Russians felt they needed the buffer zone created by the territory they "acquired" during the War, that and the irrational anti communist stance of US governements of the late 40's onwards.

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