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RE: Putting things Straight - 3/13/2005 8:56:20 PM   
Demspotis


Posts: 61
Joined: 3/11/2005
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This is my first post in these boards... seemed like a good thread to begin on...

I certainly understand RiotGirl being upset about the way some people act; and no, it's not immature to feel that way: I'd say that it is immaturity that she is angry at.

Having read through the posted replies, though, it's great to see that there a lot of people here who post reasonably and responsibly. And that is truly cool, according to my definition at least.

~Demspotis

(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/13/2005 10:16:36 PM   
MidnightWriter


Posts: 131
Joined: 2/8/2005
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RG - I used to get really bent out of shape about such things myself. My life has been much calmer since someone told me to "Give other people just as much room as they need to be as wrong as they need to be". It ain't ideal, but damn few things are.

Once, I heard the story about a witness in a legal case, due to be cross-examined by a prosecutor who was well-known for infuriating the witness, getting them to say things they'd not carefully considered. He got up on the stand, was reminded of his oath, looked at a 3x5 card, and the cross-examination began.

Every time the witness was asked a question, he'd look at the card, then answer calmly and carefully. This really broke up the prosecutor's timing, and was apparently annoying the prosecutor. Finally, he asked what was on the card. "I'd rather not say, and it's not relevant to the case" was the reply. The prosecutor insisted, the witness again declined. The prosecutor appealed to the judge, who asked to see the card, then instructed the witness to read the card in full, for the record. The witness took a deep breath, held the card up, and read:

"Don't let the silly son of a bitch get under your skin".

End of cross-examination. End of the afternoon, as the jury couldn't stop laughing.

Take it with as much humor as you can find, RiotGirl.

_____________________________

Power corrupts. Absolute power ... is really pretty nifty.

TIES - pansexual BDSM social group in MN, USA - http://www.ties-bdsm.org

(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/13/2005 11:41:09 PM   
mantis65


Posts: 456
Joined: 12/27/2004
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hang in there RiotGirl usethe block feature if someone is really nasty to you!
dont give up
mantis


(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/14/2005 12:10:46 AM   
malepleases4ever


Posts: 47
Status: offline
THe one thing I have consistently noticed here is that there is an abundance of tolerance so long as your opinion or idea doesn't deviate from the accepted core of beliefs. If you dare to post outside the boundary, any pretense of inclusiveness comes crashing down in a storm of invectives and bigotry. Seems to me that you are not calling for more tolerance in your op, but less dissent. And that's what attracts the trolls (like me).

(in reply to Demspotis)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/14/2005 12:18:38 AM   
match2u


Posts: 131
Joined: 11/15/2004
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like i have told in a note a couple of days ago - sometimes i really feel like the whole thing is like a supermarket and i have a label on - or should have on, defining who, what, where am i, beside the fact a despcription of the ingerdients too - smile -

may i just have to decide - am i in wal mart or anywhere else - smile -


..... i know what You mean RiotGirl

hug to You



petra




(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/14/2005 1:03:44 AM   
SweetDommes


Posts: 3313
Joined: 10/5/2004
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After finally making my way through the posts, I want to say a few things.

1- We have a lot more trouble with "old school" people telling us that we are wrong for how we do BDSM than I do newer people - although we do get our "fair" share of newer people too. We have found many people from the 'old school' as well as many from the 'new school' who are quite open minded and considerate towards us and our beliefs, even if they don't agree with them - but we have had a lot more trouble with inconsiderate 'old school'ers than 'new school'ers. We are among the 'new school' and we are pretty tollerant towards others - yes, we are going to state our opinions, but we try to stay civil while doing so, and if we fail, then we generally appologise later (if appologies are needed ... but sometimes, yeah, the person getting flamed deserves it ... hasn't happened on this forum yet, but on another one that we participate on it has).

2- BDSM, just like any other type of relationship, is personal, and means what the people involved think it means and other people should behave themselves when discussing variations of the lifestyle - and again, we have run into more intollerant and ill-mannered 'old school'ers than otherwise. It has to be their way or no way - their meanings or no meanings - their experiences are the only valid ones - etc. We do D/s - and there is an old school friend of ours (who I have managed to stay friends with, thankfully) who thinks that we are silly for it, that BDSM is all about S&M and without S&M there can be no BDSM-lifestyle - S&M is not our thing, but D/s still falls until BDSM ... so obviously, to us at least, he is wrong. To us, a collar means one thing, to him it means another, to someone else it means yet another, and to someone else yet another. It is all subjective depending on the relationship and the people involved.

3- Yes, every word has a specific denotation (or two or three), but every word also has a different connotation to different people. To some people, a slave is a wonderful thing ... to us, it is not. It is the meaning (connotatively) that we put upon the words that makes the difference.


(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/14/2005 4:00:13 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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Somebody told me that I always have to bow
If that was true I would have fallen apart by now
The more you think, the less you act their ways
So can you hear this, the fake sound of progress...


LOSTPROPHETS LYRICS

"The Fake Sound Of Progress"


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/14/2005 4:08:17 AM   
ShiftedJewel


Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
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Tolerance... This word has been beat to death. I used to be tolerant, I have tolerated alot in the years I have been involved with online BDSM. I have watched the collar go from something that held more meaning then a wedding ring (to me it still does) to being attached with velcro. I have watched protocol go out the virtual window, politeness occurs so long as you are in agreement with what is being said and diplomacy has all but disappeared. To what end? Years ago no one had to ask what the difference was between a submissive and a slave because it was clear... that line was lost someplace along the way. I have noticed when doing a search on the other side that you can come up with the same profiles whether you search for slave or submissive with very few choosing one or the other orientation. That tells me that even they don't know.

I have to agree with RiotGirl... this is NOT Burger King and NO, you can not have it your way. Sound kind of intolerant? Maybe so, and maybe I'm not winning any popularity contests here either... but it's how I feel. IMNSHO I believe that to tolerate the destruction of what so many of us have loved and labored toward for decades is just plain wrong. I once (and I mean, one time) attended a Catholic church, that DOES NOT make me Catholic and I would not insult a member of that religious belief and pretend to be either a member or an expert. Nor would I have the audacity to try to rewrite the standards by which they live.

OK, so you are kinky, nothing wrong with that. So you wanna check out BDSM, that's great too... but in the mean time don't claim to be THE expert, don't decide to rewrite the book a lot of us learned from, adapt to it instead.

Jewel


_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/14/2005 4:15:53 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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I am actually finding this post quite fascinating.

I am sure some will see it as a 'personal attack'.

What I find even more interesting, is that the flamers and 'cool people'( I am plagerising there Riot, sorry)... have yet to respond?
That's why I respeonded... I am not, and never will be, nor do I want to be
'cool'


Peace and Love


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/14/2005 4:59:03 AM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
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Wow. Quite a rant.
quote:


GUESS WHAT. BDSM isnt the way you want it to be. Atleast it shouldnt be. Its not Burger King. Words are not the way you want them to be either. EVERY damn word has its own defintion. Every meaning with in the lifestyle has its very OWN meaning. And if i could be bothered enough, i'd run through every damn post and pull out every Burger King thread i saw and put it straight.


If BDSM isn't what I want it to be...well then, why have I been doing it? Am I not supposed to have fun? Am I supposed to be a "Doom and Gloom" type dominant? From what you are saying I am supposed to practice BDSM according to someone else's rules. Please feel free to list the rules so I can know how to play the right way.

As far as every meaning within the community... language evloves. Every year Websters adds several new items, new words are coined on a semi-regular basis. 30 years ago, did you hear much about "power bottoms"? How about RACK? Its just evolution of the languuage. If you feel that I am incorrect in this, feel free to "Put it straight".

quote:


Point being, lets grow up, get some respect, maturity, politeness and acceptance. On all ENDS. Not just on things that are "ok" to you. Or fit into your mold. Real acceptance. Real openmindeness.


I wholeheartedly agree! ...but how are your comments a beacon of tolerance, respect, maturity or acceptance? It seems as though you are contradicting yourself.

~Thorns


_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/14/2005 5:37:08 AM   
Moleculor


Posts: 189
Joined: 5/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl
*snip*

Your flames, your attacks, your disrespect for others. So cool, so posh, so know it all, so right, so narrow minded that you cant even see it.


Pot to kettle, come in kettle!

quote:

ORIGINAL: RiotGirl

that believe in the way things should be


Ya know, I have no problem with Goreans, "Old Guard", old-school, "BurgerKingers" or any other sort of kinky folk. What I do have a problem with is any person anywhere getting up and telling me that there is One True Way. What if I don't like that way? I do what gets me off. What gets you off doesn't get me off. Why does one way have to be right and another wrong?

And you know what aggravates me even more? It's not the "BurgerKingers" who always tell me that there is One Twue Way, it's the Old-School/Old-Guard types.

So if there truely IS this "One Twue Way", and I find I don't like it, then what am I? Non-vanilla non-kinky? Non-vanilla non-BDSMer? You know what? I don't care. I'm going to call myself kinky, and whomever thinks otherwise can go screw themselves.

_____________________________

</sarcasm>

(in reply to MrThorns)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/14/2005 7:33:48 AM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
Wow see what I miss when my Boston partner takes my attention for a weekend? What's going to happen next week when I go on vacation with the boyfriend?

I am just digging into emails so I'm not really sure where the sudden large number of attacks have come from, but wow. Do people really put SO much of their lives and happiness on email forums?

Anyway, I happen to agree on the "one true way." A sub I know I might consider her a total flake and do-me top from the bottom kinda chick. So what? She's happy, her "dom" is happy and they go on their way.

I don't consider it burger king, I just consider it my life, though the onion rings are rather tasty.

(in reply to Moleculor)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/14/2005 7:46:58 AM   
January


Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
What I find even more interesting, is that the flamers and 'cool people'...


Who are the cool people? Is there really such a group on collarme? Are they the same as burgerkingers? The flamers? The KFC or macdonalds folks? Are they the old guard? Are they everyone Riot disagrees with?

Anybody know? Please tell me.

January





_____________________________

[link: http://www.bookstrand.com/miss-you-sir] Miss You, Sir by January Rowe is available from Siren now! It's my latest smokin' hot bdsm romance.[/link]




(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/14/2005 8:08:07 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
I am more of a KFC fan myself...
(hey... do I get royalties for that?)


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to January)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/14/2005 12:07:26 PM   
Alexander


Posts: 159
Joined: 12/10/2004
Status: offline
I’ve been participating in dozens of forum boards since the early days of computing and I understand and have seen the frustration you are experiencing. I would not condescend to give advice where it's not required because clearly you are a very thoughtful girl.

In my opinion, what you are seeing is very common in tight Internet communities, a new influx of people, and various people pushing around, finding the edges, and finding those that understand them. Its natural. I think the only thing I can say to alleviate your worry is: The wise often have very little to say to one another.

Alex.

(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/14/2005 2:50:03 PM   
MidnightWriter


Posts: 131
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel

Tolerance... This word has been beat to death. I used to be tolerant, I have tolerated alot in the years I have been involved with online BDSM. I have watched the collar go from something that held more meaning then a wedding ring (to me it still does) to being attached with velcro.

I've seen both views of collar myself, and the new (to me) distinctions, such as "collar of consideration", and it's wierd - no matter how other people do this stuff, that collar I place means exactly what I and the sub want it to mean - no more, no less. Nor will it matter if we end up at a convention with some Olde Guarde folks who believe a collar must be earned and a Stand & Modeler who thinks that this collar looks just great with this outfit - our collar will still retain its meaning. YMMV, but I really doubt that it will.

quote:

I have watched protocol go out the virtual window, politeness occurs so long as you are in agreement with what is being said and diplomacy has all but disappeared. To what end? Years ago no one had to ask what the difference was between a submissive and a slave because it was clear... that line was lost someplace along the way. I have noticed when doing a search on the other side that you can come up with the same profiles whether you search for slave or submissive with very few choosing one or the other orientation. That tells me that even they don't know.

That's funny - when I first showed up, I had to ask, and then watched in awe as the flamewar erupted on my screen, lasting for weeks. I still can't point toward the universal definition, though I know what definition I use. This is why I post on the neverending definition thread (if it's not active here, it's active elsewhere, but it'll be back here eventually) - if I tell people what definitions I use, then they'll have an idea of what I mean when I use the word. Generally, it'll take some additional definition when the word needs to be used in a conversation that's not about definition, but hey - words are cheap, I buy 'em by the case.

quote:

I have to agree with RiotGirl... this is NOT Burger King and NO, you can not have it your way.

<big, evil, self-satisfied grin> I guess you've never been in my collar, or you'd know - this is my damn life, and yes, I CAN have it my way. Those in my collar can have whatever we've negotiated for my way, as well. Others can have it my way if they track down all of my posts and do a lot of copying, but that's a helluva lot of work - it's probably much easier for them to have it their own damn way. Besides, I may whine about copycats if they wanna do it my way.

quote:

Sound kind of intolerant? Maybe so, and maybe I'm not winning any popularity contests here either... but it's how I feel. IMNSHO I believe that to tolerate the destruction of what so many of us have loved and labored toward for decades is just plain wrong. I once (and I mean, one time) attended a Catholic church, that DOES NOT make me Catholic and I would not insult a member of that religious belief and pretend to be either a member or an expert. Nor would I have the audacity to try to rewrite the standards by which they live.

You can't rewrite their standards - they already know their own standards. If you walk up the church aisle without genuflecting, it's not gonna be a venial sin on their soul.

Within the Catholic church, there was a schism during my childhood - it was called Vatican II. The old-timers were often horrified - I mean, dear Ghu, what business does a GUITAR have in my church? The poor priests had to schedule masses differently - some were in Latin, some had guitar-strumming folksingers instead of an organ.

They mostly all got by, somehow.

If some overweight, pasty security guard wants to fire up her modem, go to her online personna as BitchQueenGoddessJanie, and spend the next several hours virtually dominating her HotBiBabeSlut, the 19-yo nymphette who is, in reality, a middleaged, balding accountant named Dwight, fantasizing about the 500-stroke caning, the kneeling on red-hot two-penny nails as a gesture of respect, and the doublefisting scene where both arms go in up to the shoulders - what's it to you? Does it change your reality if they capitalize A/all of the wrong words, pretend they can throw a 20-pound barbed-wire flogger for hours, or disagree with you on the nuances of Troo Subbieness?

I don't see how. You'll still have permission to C/capitalize to suit yourself, negotiate for what you want in your own relationships, and do whatever parts of BDSM you wanna do, in any way that works for you.

The more clueless may insist that you do things THEIR way - but the answer to that one is easy. Ignore 'em - they'll survive, and your blood pressure will thank you.

quote:

OK, so you are kinky, nothing wrong with that. So you wanna check out BDSM, that's great too... but in the mean time don't claim to be THE expert, don't decide to rewrite the book a lot of us learned from, adapt to it instead.

Um... which book? I've been around a while, and I've never seen it. I recently learned that Jon Jacobs died last year - and sincerely hope that the supercillious, manipulative SOB is getting his just rewards.

Yes, there IS One True Way. My One True Way may not look much like your One True Way, and it sure as hell doesn't look like the One True Way I was using 10 years ago - but it's there. The problem is that it's mine, all mine - you'll have to find your own. As will every sick, twisted, disgusting pervert out there.

It's messy, chaotic, and annoying. Life tends to be that way. You wouldn't BELIEVE what silly shit they're teaching in schools these days, and it's even worse on the World Wide Wait, where there are dozens of different schools. There's no help for it - you may as well get used to it.

_____________________________

Power corrupts. Absolute power ... is really pretty nifty.

TIES - pansexual BDSM social group in MN, USA - http://www.ties-bdsm.org

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/15/2005 9:47:04 AM   
detree


Posts: 2
Joined: 3/14/2005
From: Ontario
Status: offline
wow, are we having fun yet?

(in reply to RiotGirl)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/15/2005 11:52:56 AM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline
quote:

I recently learned that Jon Jacobs died last year - and sincerely hope that the supercillious, manipulative SOB is getting his just rewards.


M. Midnight-

Thanks for the news- it inspired a nice little reverie contemplating his next turn on the wheel. Sadly, I am not the sadist I should be- I really couldn't think of a fittingly horribly incarnation for him<g>.

Stay warm,
Lawrence


< Message edited by topcat -- 3/15/2005 11:54:27 AM >


_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to MidnightWriter)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Putting things Straight - 3/16/2005 9:10:39 AM   
MidnightWriter


Posts: 131
Joined: 2/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

quote:

I recently learned that Jon Jacobs died last year - and sincerely hope that the supercillious, manipulative SOB is getting his just rewards.


M. Midnight-

Thanks for the news- it inspired a nice little reverie contemplating his next turn on the wheel. Sadly, I am not the sadist I should be- I really couldn't think of a fittingly horribly incarnation for him<g>.

Lawrence, I'm perhaps more sadistic than I should be - I'm hoping he spends his next turn full of self-doubt, told by everyone around him that what he wants is unworthy, that his desires should be ______ instead.

Alternately, he could bail out on relationship after relationship, ever seeking that perfect partner - until he's bailed out on so many good relationships that nobody will have him on any terms.

But hey, I'm just the vicious sort.

Oh - FWIW, I'm just fine with the easy-to-type MW - I don't expect formality from anyone that hasn't submitted to me, and I'm a lazy typist.

_____________________________

Power corrupts. Absolute power ... is really pretty nifty.

TIES - pansexual BDSM social group in MN, USA - http://www.ties-bdsm.org

(in reply to topcat)
Profile   Post #: 39
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