Bridging the Gap (Full Version)

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mistoferin -> Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 11:25:39 AM)

In going over recent threads I see that there is a very real division between “old school” and “new school”. It seems that on both sides there is a bit of animosity and resentment. I think that seeing there is an issue is the first step in addressing it. I would like to propose that we discuss what it is about the opposite school of thought that makes us react in the ways that we do. Maybe by putting it out here in an open forum, we can take a few steps closer to bridging that gap.

I, personally, am from the “old school” of thought. I think that it is very important that we hear and acknowledge the concerns of each other for the survival of the community as a whole. I do not wish to discount the thoughts, feelings, opinions or ideas of the newer people as I believe we have a lot that we can learn from them. My own Sir has far less experience than myself and I learn new things from Him every single day. I also believe that it is important for us who have been here a number of years to share our ways with the new folks. If we can open those lines of communication it will only serve to better each and every one of us. In order for this exchange to occur, we all have to be open to hearing what the concerns of the other group are.

I will try to address the perspective of the “old schoolers” as it is the one that I know. What I say here are my opinions and not necessarily the opinions of all “old schoolers”. I would like others to chime in with their views….both “new” and “old”. Please though…let’s all try to remember that there are actual human beings with feelings behind these typewritten words.

I don’t have issues with “new schoolers” just because they are new. I was new at one time too…we all were. I welcome new people to this lifestyle (for lack of a better term) as it is a wonderful journey. I love the enthusiasm of the new, the fresh ideas, the different perspectives as a whole.

Where I have an issue is with some “new schoolers”, and I am not implying that all are like this, that come into this with an attitude of knowing it all. They read some websites, a book or two, talked online to a few Doms….maybe even gotten into a few good scenes. Generally they are those with less than a year or so of experience. I kind of liken it to someone who would profess to be an expert at calculus based solely upon the fact that they passed first grade math. They are unwilling to hear about or discuss the old ways because they think they are outdated and archaic. Well to that I would have to say that sometimes old ideas can be pretty good ones…..I mean the wheel was a great invention, was it not?

I have personally had quite a number of instances where a new submissive or slave has told me that the way I do things are wrong because she read on Castle Realm….or her online Dom said…without even considering the fact that I just might be a bit farther along on this journey than she. When someone new comes out and self professes themselves to be sub/slave/Dominant/Master, with little or no experience, it is hard for us who have been here and paid heavy dues to take. If “sally” declares herself “slave” and expects to be seen on the exact same level as someone like myself who has been here many years, working hard to earn the right to call myself such…..does that invalidate where I have been and what I have gone through to get here? Does it cheapen who I am? I mean I have worked really hard….now you’re telling me that I could get the same level of respect just by a mere declaration of words?

Rituals meant something, collars meant something, the labels we identify ourselves with meant something. Everything was based on the principles of honor, integrity, respect and responsibility. Today we see that all of those things are losing their meaning. There is a sadness on our part to see those things lost. Throughout time, one generation has passed their knowledge to the generation behind them. Is it so wrong that we wish to attempt to do the same?

I don’t wish to cram anything down anyone’s throat, or make them conform to my ideals. I just wish them to be open minded enough to hear me. To try to understand the perspective I come from and to acknowledge my efforts instead of invalidating them or telling me that it all meant nothing. I would expect that the argument from the “new school” side will be very much the same.

These are some of the reasons I see for the division between the two groups. I am very interested in hearing the thoughts of both “old” and “new” schoolers alike. Let’s see if we can find common ground.

*Once again....these are just my opinions....I am not asking that anyone be in agreement....nor is it my intent to offend anyone by them*





TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 11:38:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
These are some of the reasons I see for the division between the two groups. I am very interested in hearing the thoughts of both “old” and “new” schoolers alike. Let’s see if we can find common ground.


It really doesn't seem like there is an "old" school and "new" school. Rather it is an "Old School" vs. those who don't follow any one's rules but their own.

Those non-rule followers have a tradition at least as long as the "Old Schoolers" as there were those who thought the "Old School" stuff was shite (I watched Finding Neverland last night, and I just love that word right now) even when it was brand new.

The "Old Schoolers" stand for tradition, protocol, working your way up, rules, and such. That works for some people, and it has nothing to do with BDSM. There are "Old Schoolers" in every passion/hobby and on every message board.

What it boils down to is "Old Schoolers" ranting about the lack of respect for the traditional ways while the non-"Old Schoolers" ask the "Old Schoolers" to quit preaching to them.

Life goes on...

Taggard



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 11:51:47 AM)

It's just another version of "back in the good ole days..."

Happens in every culture, in every era, across every ocean.

We are no different.

Rituals meant something, that's great. They aren't my rituals and they won't mean anything to me unless I take them to be so.

You have the older sage ones scorning the youngsters for their flagrant disrespect (and perhaps feeling their age and deserving something for all the toil they endured). They then get resentful of how easy and carefree it is for them and how jauntily they live life.

You have the younger ones trying to establish themselves but keep being told they don't really know anything and need to do things THIS way and not THAT way. They then get resentful of being oppressed and rejected.

So what happens? The younger people get NONE of the benefits of being helped along by the older generation, and the older people get NONE of the benefits of a fresh perspective and the thrill of change.

And everyone ends up with enemies.



mistoferin -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 12:32:41 PM)

quote:

It really doesn't seem like there is an "old" school and "new" school. Rather it is an "Old School" vs. those who don't follow any one's rules but their own.


I don't really care if you wish to call it pork sausage vs. beef sausage....or ice cream vs. sherbert. The point is that there seems to be a division and my only intent is to see how we can close the gap. Not to pick apart the words....but address the context. Any suggestions on how we can come to a meeting of the minds?



mistoferin -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 12:33:37 PM)

quote:

So what happens? The younger people get NONE of the benefits of being helped along by the older generation, and the older people get NONE of the benefits of a fresh perspective and the thrill of change.


Exactly....so any suggestions on how we can change this cycle?



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 1:06:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
Any suggestions on how we can come to a meeting of the minds?


Of course not. The minds won't meet because the non-"Old Schoolers" don't care what the "Old Schoolers" are prattling on about. It has nothing to do with age...everything to do with style.

Why must we all get along? Personally, I like some respectful conflict. It sharpens the sword for when we have to deal with intolerance from without...

Taggard



mistoferin -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 1:09:23 PM)

quote:

So what happens? The younger people get NONE of the benefits of being helped along by the older generation, and the older people get NONE of the benefits of a fresh perspective and the thrill of change


This is why we need to change it....because we are losing out all the way around.



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 1:17:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

So what happens? The younger people get NONE of the benefits of being helped along by the older generation, and the older people get NONE of the benefits of a fresh perspective and the thrill of change


This is why we need to change it....because we are losing out all the way around.



Nah...the "Old Schoolers" like the way they do things...they also like to complain and feel "real" as opposed to the "New school fakers" who don't do it their way.

The non-conformists like the way they do things...they also like having a status quo to rebel against.

Those who like the change, embrace the change...and the older generation doesn't really have much more to offer then can be found in the alternative lifestyles section of Barnes and Nobel.

Taggard



mistoferin -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 1:24:45 PM)

quote:

and the older generation doesn't really have much more to offer then can be found in the alternative lifestyles section of Barnes and Nobel.


Well I am glad you feel I have so little to offer. I, for one, would still like to understand the perspective of the new, so if there is anyone out there who knows how we can actually make strides towards bringing the two closer together, I would love to hear your suggestions.



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 1:28:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I, for one, would still like to understand the perspective of the new


Maybe then you should try reading the boards instead of writing for a while... Maybe you should ask questions instead of making pronouncements... Maybe you shouldn't worry about what you have to offer, and instead really try to see what others do.

In short, you seek a solution for a problem that is yours...why not look for that solution inside of yourself, instead of thinking someone else will provide it???

Taggard



mistoferin -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 1:33:18 PM)

quote:

Maybe you should ask questions instead of making pronouncements... Maybe you shouldn't worry about what you have to offer, and instead really try to see what others do.


That is exactly what I AM doing Taggard. I am asking for the views and opinions of others.....and thank you for yours.



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 1:44:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

Maybe you should ask questions instead of making pronouncements... Maybe you shouldn't worry about what you have to offer, and instead really try to see what others do.


That is exactly what I AM doing Taggard.


Umm...then perhaps you should leave off things like the following:

quote:

I also believe that it is important for us who have been here a number of years to share our ways with the new folks.


quote:

They are unwilling to hear about or discuss the old ways because they think they are outdated and archaic.


quote:

I just wish them to be open minded enough to hear me.


This doesn't sound like someone who wants to listen, it sounds like someone who wants to be heard. Sorry, but a lot of people, some who have been in this life as long as (or longer than) you, just don't care to hear about your ways. Offering to listen to them in exchange for them listening to you is simply of no value to them...but, and here is where you are lucky, they will talk all day long for you...so you can get what you need from them. You will just have to find some way to live with the fact that they are going to have to learn the lessons you did the hard way.

Taggard




mistoferin -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 1:51:20 PM)

quote:

Sorry, but a lot of people, some who have been in this life as long as (or longer than) you, just don't care to hear about your ways


Well I don't see anyone forcing you to particpate here.



TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 2:10:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Well I don't see anyone forcing you to particpate here.


And just what does that have to do with what I wrote? Did I imply someone was forcing me to do anything?


How about addressing the issues that I did bring up, such as your desire to be heard as opposed to your desire to listen? How about addressing the three quotes I reposted?

How about understanding that this gap might be more your problem then someone else's problem?

Or is this all about getting the last word?

Taggard



mistoferin -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 2:30:19 PM)

Taggard,
You seemed to entirely miss the intent of my post. The post was in response to a thread I read on here last night. It got me to thinking that maybe if there was just a platform for each group to state their views and discuss them, that maybe, just maybe we could all come a bit closer together.

You want to pick it apart and take quotes that come out of context when they stand alone for the purpose of being argumentative, just like you do on every other post you ever respond to. I did not start this post to start an argument....it was an attempt to end one. I will not participate in one with you. Especially when it pertains to what YOUR perception of what MY intent is as it is ridiculously far off base. Unless now you are going to claim to me that you are a mindreader also.

If you have something of value that you wish to add that directly relates to the original post as to why the two mindsets are so far apart or suggestions to bring them closer together I would be happy to hear them. If all you wish to do is banter back and forth about what you think about me....then you are wasting your time because I really care very little about what you think about me.



darkinshadows -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 3:06:30 PM)

Angels opinion...

I have been involved in BDSM for over 18 years in one way or another. I suppose in a way, it makes me more old school than new.

I have been taught by old school. People, years my senior who were around even before BDSM became 'mainstream'.

I have also had the honour of learning from people who are not involved in BDSM. People outside this life I love so dearly.

And I have helped train other girls in ways that their Masters have required, which was my Masters permission. Never have I taken a Dominant role, always have I just been a 'friend'.

I am a lover of the 'new ways'. I thrive on discovery. I live to experiment and learn about new ideas. Yet I am still in love with the older ways... the politeness, the gentle respect, the harsh, yet loving words. Being able to be a woman, without losing my dignity... without fearing I am 'letting down woman kind'... to be, myself.

I have loved all the people in my life. From the Man who raped me when I was 16, to the Man that has loved me for 16 years. I have touched death, held the dying and cared for the living. I have brought life into the world and seen angels and demons in all sorts of play. Each experience is precious. Each segment of knowledge, utter perfection. The touch placed upon me by the experience and inexperience of individuals, enlighten me.

I always believed that I had been taught and nourished by the most wisest Men, Women and children I could have known. I am blessed.

But one day, a Man, a beautiful, gentle Man who is nothing more than a man.... who is not involved in BDSM, even though He knew all about me and once said, in response to to my verbalising of the above belief... once said:

"It is not that the wise are able to teach.
It is that the wise are able to be taught."

Peace and Love




happypervert -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 7:04:14 PM)

quote:

If you have something of value that you wish to add that directly relates to the original post as to why the two mindsets are so far apart or suggestions to bring them closer together I would be happy to hear them. If all you wish to do is banter back and forth about what you think about me....then you are wasting your time because I really care very little about what you think about me.


And that is exactly the point he was trying to make. You say he has said nothing of value because it isn't what you wanted to hear, but then as he noted, you really aren't listening anyway. Looks to me like he had the situation pegged, and your old school response to his new school ideas illustrates the futility of your grand dream of trying to bridge the gap.



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 9:34:16 PM)

Being among the newbies, and having an opinion on a lot of things, I'd like to chime in, and throw my new school thinking in...
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
In going over recent threads I see that there is a very real division between “old school” and “new school”. It seems that on both sides there is a bit of animosity and resentment.

I'm very open to learning traditions, but my level of commitment is different from someone for whom this is primary in his life; for example, my family is my primary relationship, and while what I do behind closed doors is none of their business, what comes out publically about me may compromised them morally and socially, and to the extent possible, I'd like to try to avoid that. Taking this stance, can make some call me fake in my commitment to this lifestyle, and that part would make me resentful because I do what works best for my health and well being, and resent being mislabeled because of that.

quote:

what it is about the opposite school of thought that makes us react in the ways that we do. Maybe by putting it out here in an open forum, we can take a few steps closer to bridging that gap.

Great idea Erin, trying to bridge the gap; I'm always in for attempting peaceful coexistence.
One of the ways I would suggest getting to know someone is by watching his contributions on more than one matter, asking them questions on different subject matter, and generally feeling out his way of thinking before judging or replying to him because oftentimes words come out the wrong way, or people see one post and assume "this person is a narrow minded judgemental jerk", while this person is joking this particular time, so watching a pattern is the best way to understand where one is coming from.
Another way, is by retaining an open mind, and suggesting gently another perspective, without cutting the person down and making him feel less able to contribute simply because he is new to the boards or lifestyle. I think we would all agree that a lot of what is discussed on the boards and in life is kink plus common sense, not rocket science.

quote:

I, personally, am from the “old school” of thought. I think that it is very important that we hear and acknowledge the concerns of each other for the survival of the community as a whole. I do not wish to discount the thoughts, feelings, opinions or ideas of the newer people as I believe we have a lot that we can learn from them.

Thanks for showing openness, otherwise the community would become extinct; everyone was new at one point.
I am very open to learning from more experience people and people whose principles are similar to mine; there are definitely opinions/views/activities within this lifestyle that I cannot wrap my mind around, but feel infinitely luckier and happier for having found the direction I was destined for in my future.

quote:

Where I have an issue is with some “new schoolers”, and I am not implying that all are like this, that come into this with an attitude of knowing it all. They read some websites, a book or two, talked online to a few Doms

Lack of humility is not pretty on anyone old/new school; granting that new schoolers should definitely shut up and listen more, it also rubs us the wrong way when people who do not know us, our hearts/intents or desires judge us based on lack of experience calling us condescending names and question our every thought/word/deed. So sometimes as a defense mechanism, some newbies take a strong/arrogant stance, which while foolish, protects the ego for that little while.

quote:

I kind of liken it to someone who would profess to be an expert at calculus based solely upon the fact that they passed first grade math.

That I would say is not a new school problem as much as a stupidity problem; if you'll grant that not all old schoolers know it all simply for having been in many many years, I'll grant you that I should not discuss russian literature simply because I've heard the words, and can name 1 or 2 authors.

quote:

Rituals meant something, collars meant something, the labels we identify ourselves with meant something. Everything was based on the principles of honor, integrity, respect and responsibility.

These things still mean something to most if not all of us, but you'll have to remember that social/psychosocial problems accompany a lot of people into this lifestyle, and sometimes they think it's a way to cheat their way out of the issues they have to face.
Okay, I think I'm starting to ramble, so, I'll shut up now.

quote:

I don’t wish to cram anything down anyone’s throat, or make them conform to my ideals. I just wish them to be open minded enough to hear me.

Sounds good to me, I'm open and listening.
Thanks for the post, M



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/14/2005 11:42:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty
Why must we all get along? Personally

We mustn't, but If we did get along life would be more interesting (notice I didn't say we'd think alike, but we'd revel in our differences within loving, and respectful boundaries), less depressing, less deadly, and there would be less need for psychotropic drugs and guns, and perhaps we'd have less disease, homelessness and desperation?

quote:

I like some respectful conflict. Taggard

Oh how often does that happen, that egos and base instints don't get in the way?
Okay, I know you're going to think I was smoking something before writing this, lol, but I wasn't really![:D] M



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Bridging the Gap (3/15/2005 5:44:41 AM)

It's a simple answer really, stop judging people as a group, stop being afraid of differences, stop judging difference as "wrong."

It's the putting into effect that becomes impossible.



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