Secret Agents on trial in Italy (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 7:46:51 AM)

CIA and Italian secret agents go on trial in Italy for kidnapping a terrorist suspect (illegal renditions). The CIA agents will almost certainly tried in abstentia. Germany is also serving warrants on CIA agents for kidnapping too. Most European governments are hoping this will quietly go away because it appears most tacitly agreed or turned a blind eye to what was happening. This trial could dig very deep and point fingers at senior politicians in most European countries and with luck get some of the bastards on trial. The fact that they can tacitly agree to such illegal acts as kidnapping innocent people means no one is safe.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/italy/story/0,,2014842,00.html

Maybe we will see Blair in a court room after all. It is pretty much accepted he at least gave a nod and wink to this activity.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 10:16:59 AM)

Eurabia gets bigger and closer every day, it seems.

I wonder how long it will take before you guys are all speaking Arabic as the national language, and put your women in burkhas?

It's sad to see the slow death of a civilization.

FirmKY




meatcleaver -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 10:20:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Eurabia gets bigger and closer every day, it seems.

I wonder how long it will take before you guys are all speaking Arabic as the national language, and put your women in burkhas?

It's sad to see the slow death of a civilization.

FirmKY



It is the turning of a blind eye and the tacit agreement of leading politicians to this illegal act that will be the death of civilisation. It might be Arab business men now but soon enough it will be anyone who questions government policy. I hope this trial leads to the door of the politicians who thought it was OK to abduct an innocent man just because he had the wrong name, wrong religion and the wrong colour skin.




seeksfemslave -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 11:31:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Eurabia gets bigger and closer every day, it seems.
I wonder how long it will take before you guys are all speaking Arabic as the national language, and put your women in burkhas?
It's sad to see the slow death of a civilization.
FirmKY


Speaking as one who has supported the invasion of Iraq and the removal of Saddam I think you have thrown a wobbler there Firmhand.

On what grounds would you condemn the kidnapping of US businessmen the NEXT time it happens ?




FirmhandKY -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 4:29:51 PM)

seeks,

I think the issue is really more one of survival, than of laws and ethics.  While generally I do subscribe to a high order of observance of the rule of law, I think that reality sometimes pokes it's head in the door, and from time to time and place to place that requires operations and actions that are normally condemned or illegal.

I wouldn't want those times and places to be enumerated and placed on a list.  I think when such actions are taken, they should carry a high risk, so that they are not taken lightly, nor easily, and always at a possible high cost.  This tends to eliminate the facile undertaking of such actions that would lead down a slope I wouldn't want to go.

This mirrors my views on a lot of things, such as abortion, and euthanasia.  Make them illegal, with consequences if caught, but have an understanding that from time to time, and from place to place, either of those type of actions have an appropriate time and place.  Just don't make them legal, easy, and carried out without a lot of soul-searching.

I don't have a problem, per se, with the individuals being charged, except that I don't think it's really a desire to enforce "the law" that is behind the charges.  I think it's a political statement.

Someone hasn't been able to distinguish between a time to simply complain and protest, versus a time to contribute to their own society's suicide.

I'd theorize that in the future, the ability of Italy to get the US's assistance in matters of national security, especially when it comes to the struggle against radical Islam, will be much decreased.

They are sacrificing substance for form, and will likely pay a price for it.

FirmKY




mnottertail -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 4:32:29 PM)

Oh, c'mon who didn't see this coming?  Of course this is why the Irish really are the Mob in the US, Italians are always talking into microphones.

Richard Daley.




juliaoceania -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 4:37:45 PM)

I remember this story when it came out and I am appalled by what happened. It is as though we think we are above the rest of the world and do not have to follow human rights laws established after what Hitler did. We think we can be the Gestapo and Stalin and just disappear people regardless of due process or citizenship.. it is revolting.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 4:42:46 PM)

"The Constitution isn't a sucide pact." sums it up nicely.

FirmKY




farglebargle -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 5:12:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

seeks,

I think the issue is really more one of survival, than of laws and ethics. While generally I do subscribe to a high order of observance of the rule of law, I think that reality sometimes pokes it's head in the door, and from time to time and place to place that requires operations and actions that are normally condemned or illegal.


Too bad the Bush administration is doing THIS with that power:

http://yannone.blogspot.com/2006/12/this-is-america-we-have-become.html

quote:


My nightmare began on September 26, 2002. I was transiting through New York airport, JFK Airport, when they asked me to wait in a waiting area. I found that to be strange. Shortly after, some FBI officials came to see me and they asked me whether, I was willing to be interviewed.

My first immediate reaction was to ask for a lawyer and I was surprised when they told me that I had no right to a lawyer because I was not an American citizen.

Then I asked for a phone call, I wanted to call my family to let them know what was going on. And they just ignored my request.

Then they told me, we only have couple of questions for you and we'll let you go. So I agreed. I had nothing to hide. And the interrogation started. Soon after, you know, they asked me about people I knew. It was deeper, until the interrogation was going deeper and deeper and deeper.

During this time, they played mind games with me. They would sometimes insult me; say to me something like you're smart. Other times they would accuse me of being dumb.

And, I repeatedly ask for a lawyer, to make a phone call. They always ignored my question.

The interrogation that day lasted about four hours with the FBI officials and another four hours with immigration. At the end of that day, instead of sending me back to Canada, they shackled and chained me and sent me to another, another terminal in the airport where I stayed overnight and in that place, in that room they kept me in, the lights were, were always on. There was no bed in that room and I could not sleep that night.

The next day another set of interrogations started. This time it was about, they asked me about political opinions--I answered openly, I didn't try to hide my political opinions. The asked me about Iraq. They asked me about Palestine and so many other issues. And they also, if I remember correctly, asked me about my emails and some other questions.

Going to Syria

And they told me that day we are about to decide about your fate. At the end of that day, surprisingly, one of the immigration officers came and asked me to volunteer to go to Syria. I said to them: why do you want me to go to Syria, I've never been there for 17 years. And they say, "You are special interest." Of course, back then I did not know what this expression meant. But it was clear that the Americans, the officer did not want me to go to Canada.

When he insisted, I said, let me go back to Switzerland. That was my point of departure before I arrived at JFK and he refused. Eventually they took me into the Metropolitan Detention Center, a federal prison, where they kept me for about 12 days. During this time I was interviewed for six hours by INS. It was a very exhaustive interview from 9PM to like around 3AM in the morning. When I asked them to, during this interview to go, to allow me to go back to my cell to perform my prayer, they refused, completely refused.

Also during my stay at the Metropolitan Detention Center I could clearly see that I was being treated differently from other prisoners. For example, they didn't give me toothpaste they would allow me to go for recreation for about a week. They always ignored my demand for making a phone call. Eventually they allowed me to make a phone call. Up until that time, which was a week after I was arrested, no one in my family knew where I was. My wife thought I was disappeared, I was killed.



Simply put, the Bush Administration doesn't DESERVE the authority they have.





cyberdude611 -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 9:45:02 PM)

Europe has become a joke. Just take a look at the anti-semitism going on in France. Did you know by 2025, France will be 1/3rd muslim? Look what happened to Theo Van Gogh when he made a film that criticized how muslims treat women...he was killed by Islamist extremists. Yet Europeans think the United States is the biggest threat to the world?

Yes, the US has made mistakes in Iraq and elsewhere. But why is it that the Europeans are so willing to flush America down the toilet for those isolated incidents and begin supporting terrorists that blow up Israel supermarkets, crash commercial planes into buildings, and support a religion that beats women in the streets and slices a man's head off for being gay?
Did you hear about the Palestinian guy in Gaza that came home and found his son in bed with another man? He pulled his son out to the middle of the street and beat him to death. So much for the "religion of peace."

FirmhandKY is right, western civilization is dying. And by 2050, Europe will be a muslim-dominated continent. Conversion to Islam in Europe is up nearly 300%. Radical extremists are growing in number in every major European city. Europe is already practically dead. America will die next.




NorthernGent -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 9:56:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Eurabia gets bigger and closer every day, it seems.

I wonder how long it will take before you guys are all speaking Arabic as the national language, and put your women in burkhas?

It's sad to see the slow death of a civilization.

FirmKY



Firmhand, you're pulling rabbits out of hats. If you make it over this way you'll see how far your comments are detached from reality.




MasterKalif -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 9:57:39 PM)

what is a joke is the supposed false authority of American agents acting without European country's authorization on their countries...how would Americans feel if their citizens were kidnapped and kept hostage over supposed terrorist links say, by the French securite over activism, etc?? I bet you guys in support of these "unofficial" CIA actions would cry crimson...
the proper procedure would have been for CIA to act by contacting the Italian and other authorities, let them know what they were doing at the very least....act together to question the supposed crimninal, within a legal, yet secret procedure...then many people wonder why Europeans are not so eager to jump in this alliance with Bush's government....shameful really....tell me how this is different than what the Pinochet regime did or any authoritarian dictatorship did which many have complained about?

There is something wrong with this picture....and then again we see this Muslim bashing thing...Im getting sick of it...no religion supports killing or beating women...its lunatics who hide behind religion who do that and religion becomes an excuse...if not religion, then other reasons would be used.




NorthernGent -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 10:08:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Europe has become a joke. Just take a look at the anti-semitism going on in France. Did you know by 2025, France will be 1/3rd muslim?



Fascinating. The largest Jewish community in Europe is actually in France so it ain't all that bad. As for one thirds Muslim, I'd guess they have a Muslim population of 8 to 10%. Can you provide an insight into how this is going to reach 33% status within 18 years? In fact, France has 5 million Muslims of what? 55 million people - making it 11%. Where are the other 22% coming from?

Yeah France has race issues, but don't we all eh. I reckon you need to get your own house in order before making wild claims backed up by cyberdudes book of statistics.

France is interesting when compared with Britain because we have a tendency to do things the other way 'round. Teachers are not allocated to schools in France based on their experience and quality (unlike Britain). Which is great because some of the most deprived areas in France have the best teachers. Thus, you have these well educated Muslim kids coming out of school looking for top jobs. The problem is, application forms go straight in the bin when the employer sees a Muslim name on the top. Which is the other way 'round in Britain - Muslim kids get the inexperienced teachers but they're more likely to get a fair crack of the whip when applying for jobs. Our businesses are very competitive and will take the best labour regardless of any other factor.

Before making wild claims, you really need to have a think about the history, culture and social complexities of nations.




SaintAllie -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 10:16:35 PM)

Um.. didn't the US support Saddam when it suited them?..you can't have your cake and eat it too..regards Allie




cyberdude611 -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 10:31:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

Europe has become a joke. Just take a look at the anti-semitism going on in France. Did you know by 2025, France will be 1/3rd muslim?



Fascinating. The largest Jewish community in Europe is actually in France so it ain't all that bad. As for one thirds Muslim, I'd guess they have a Muslim population of 8 to 10%. Can you provide an insight into how this is going to reach 33% status within 18 years? In fact, France has 5 million Muslims of what? 55 million people - making it 11%. Where are the other 22% coming from?

Yeah France has race issues, but don't we all eh. I reckon you need to get your own house in order before making wild claims backed up by cyberdudes book of statistics.

France is interesting when compared with Britain because we have a tendency to do things the other way 'round. Teachers are not allocated to schools in France based on their experience and quality (unlike Britain). Which is great because some of the most deprived areas in France have the best teachers. Thus, you have these well educated Muslim kids coming out of school looking for top jobs. The problem is, application forms go straight in the bin when the employer sees a Muslim name on the top. Which is the other way 'round in Britain - Muslim kids get the inexperienced teachers but they're more likely to get a fair crack of the whip when applying for jobs. Our businesses are very competitive and will take the best labour regardless of any other factor.

Before making wild claims, you really need to have a think about the history, culture and social complexities of nations.


How will they get to 33%? With the conversion rate of Islam nearly 300% in Europe and this massive immigration problem, you truely believe it is impossible? The situation is getting so bad, look how many votes radical right-wingers in France like LePen is starting to get.

And everyone continues to say that not all muslims are extremists. I read a report last year that said that over 1/3rd of the world's muslims believe and practice in Sharia law. Sharia law is a very radical part of the Quran that violates many international human rights laws.
I also dont see many muslims telling these radicals to shut up. They allow them to spew and spew and spew. And when they allow these radical muslims to do that...the hate and intolerance will continue to build on all sides.




cyberdude611 -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 10:46:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SaintAllie

Um.. didn't the US support Saddam when it suited them?..you can't have your cake and eat it too..regards Allie


The US picked the lesser of two evils. In the 80s, the US could not allow the Iranian Ayatollahs to take over Iraq. The US also wanted to send a message to the Soviets to stay out of the mid-east. Thats why the US funded and armed Osama Bin Laden. And gave weapons of mass destruction to Saddam Hussein. The strategy worked. Saddam kept the Ayatollahs in check and the Mujahadeem in Afghanistan drove the Soviets out. Soviet expansion was stopped.

The problem occured in the early 90s. The CIA got what they wanted but didnt mop up the mess after the Soviet withdrawal. Saddam grew a brain and decided he wanted to invade Kuwait. So that sparked the Gulf War in 1992. In 1994, the Mujahadeem in Afghanistan formed the Taliban government.
So actually the Afghan and Iraq wars are more of a cleanup operation. They should have never been allowed to get out of hand in the first place.

If the US had not funded both Saddam and Bin Laden in the 80s, it is very likely the Soviet Union would have taken over most of the mid-east. And it is at least a possibility that the victory would have provided enough economic spark that the Soviets could have survived the fall and would still be around today.




NorthernGent -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 10:46:59 PM)

France does not have the capacity to absorb 15 million people so you can rest assured the 11% will never get anywhere near 33%.

The continental European countries have a history of extreme politics unlike the US and Britain. They're not as polarised as we are. Thus, Le Pen getting 18% of votes in the early rounds is not out of the ordinary - your "things are getting that bad" claim is unfounded.

Sharia law? Yeah, there is an ugly side to Islam, but what about the US and British governments who have directly and indirectly caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people - where's their sense of duty towards human rights (and by extension the people who elect these governments)?

How could you see Muslims "telling the radicals to shut up" when you don't live in Europe. As it happens, leaders of the Muslim Council of Britain are forever voicing their disapproval of the more radical elements. The problem is, some people don't want to hear this because it doesn't fit their agenda.





cyberdude611 -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/16/2007 10:58:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

France does not have the capacity to absorb 15 million people so you can rest assured the 11% will never get anywhere near 33%.

The continental European countries have a history of extreme politics unlike the US and Britain. They're not as polarised as we are. Thus, Le Pen getting 18% of votes in the early rounds is not out of the ordinary - your "things are getting that bad" claim is unfounded.

Sharia law? Yeah, there is an ugly side to Islam, but what about the US and British governments who have directly and indirectly caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people - where's their sense of duty towards human rights (and by extension the people who elect these governments)?

How could you see Muslims "telling the radicals to shut up" when you don't live in Europe. As it happens, leaders of the Muslim Council of Britain are forever voicing their disapproval of the more radical elements. The problem is, some people don't want to hear this because it doesn't fit their agenda.




You actually think that Iran is a democracy and that the people want the government they have? As for Iraq, isn't that what the US is doing? They are allowing the Iraqis to dictate the future. The trouble is getting all sides to agree while Al-Queda continues to bomb everyone. Is that the fault of the US that 90% of the deaths that occured during the Iraq war was because of Al-Queda?
There is no democracy in the mid-east except Israel.




SaintAllie -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/17/2007 12:02:44 AM)

Hmmm ... Is that like the vietnamese falling to communism. it had been communist since the thirties - didn't mean that they were going to buddy up to the USSR was never going to happen and didn't happen, all that happened was lots of people died trying to stop America and its allies invading them. Since when are muslim ayatollahs communist? never, thats when, they were never going to go communist (and whoa hold on a minute, what is really wrong wiith being a communist, it's only a label, hey China is communist state and also one of Americas biggest trading partners, and incidentally just like America, full of really nice people). All they would have done is put up the price of oil , and some rich American corporations would have been disadvantaged... If America really wants to stop "terrorism" it should have a long hard look at its own foreign policy - and it should look back in history, it would find most people just want to be left alone and not bullied - something American foreign policy doesn't seem to reflect - just because you are bigger doesn't give you the right to smack over the boy down the street - nor the country over the horizon... If you go to Iraq you will find it full of people just like you, they want to have a comfortable life, raise a family and live in peace, which they were doing for a long time before somebody decided it would covertly meddle in their own internal politics (something which is actually constitutionally illegal in America but it just didn't seem to matter to the CIA - you know the people who sell drugs to their own people to get money to further there own goals because they know the American congress certainly won't give them any... -now Iraqis have to live in a war zone.
Afganistan and Iraq... The "clean up" you discuss is actually lots and lots of people dieing... mostly Iraqius while their government is completely destabilised and the funds that they should be getting (for there own oil that America is selling on there behalf ) is being plundered and mis-appropriated. Oh but we got rid of Saddam that really bad man I here you cry, What exactly is the differance between Saddam H throwing lots of people in gaol and throwing away the key, and guantanamo bay - nothing - it is all bad justice and it doesn't matter who does it -it is still wrong.  If it wasn't in George Bushs' personal best interest this "cleanup" operation wouldn't be happening.  This "cleanup operation" was started on the premise of lies - weapons of mass deception.. - and if you opened your eyes you would see it is being fueled by the vested interests of those with more money and power than thee. societies only work when they return more to the people than they take out - when they stop doing that there are short sharp revolutions - it has always happened -will always happen - we are not living in a special age - just an age between revolutions... how we treat each other will determine when the revolution will come..

This is my opinion and I appreciate that others may have a different  outlook on this topic and it is that difference that should be celebrated amongst humanity .. kind regards SaintAllie




NorthernGent -> RE: Secret Agents on trial in Italy (2/17/2007 12:21:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SaintAllie

If you go to Iraq you will find it full of people just like you, they want to have a comfortable life, raise a family and live in peace,



Most definitely. The vast majority of the world just wants to get their heads down and get on with life. Then there are the idiots who spoil if for the rest. The problem is, the idiots tend to shout loudest, make themselves heard and others follow suit.




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