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Masters Dependent? - 3/15/2005 9:26:29 AM

willing2serve

Posts: 385
Joined: 4/6/2004
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This is to all Dominants ...

Topic: Are Masters dependent upon their submissives? If so, in what ways are you dependent?.. and how can the submissive ensure that you stay dependent?

Respectfully,
Willing2serve1

< Message edited by willing2serve -- 3/15/2005 9:30:18 AM >

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Post #: 1

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/15/2005 9:50:14 AM

EmeraldSlave2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: willing2serve

This is to all Dominants ...

Topic: Are Masters dependent upon their submissives? If so, in what ways are you dependent?.. and how can the submissive ensure that you stay dependent?

Respectfully,
Willing2serve1

The Owner is dependent on me to make plans and keep him up to date on calendar/timing issues. He forgets dates easily and it's up to me to remind him and get that going.

An interesting question about a submissive ensuring dependence, I can't imagine a submissive or anyone doing that unless they were scared and insecure. However, there are plenty of scared and insecure subs out there and I know plenty play manipulation games to keep the dom where they want so it happens. In my case however, it's simply not possible. The Owner entrusts his dependence upon me so I can do my job- make his life easier. If I ever broke that trust or used it to make his life more difficult, that would be a Very Very Bad Thing.

(in reply to willing2serve)

Post #: 2

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/15/2005 9:54:56 AM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

Are Masters dependent upon their submissives?

willing,
What an interesting question.

I want to say that I am NOT dependent, only because my instinct tells me that dependence is a sign of weakness. Then the question becomes can a Master be weak? I don't think so, but I don't feel resolute about that answer.

I would say that a Master is only complete when he is in the company of a submissive or he has taken on ownership of a slave. The distinction of 'complete' and 'dependent' may be semantic, but it goes back my belief that you can be Dominant without the need of a submissive or a slave, but a Master requires direct and frequent interaction. That perspective indicates dependence.

On a practical scale I don't believe a Master is dependent or independent from their slave/submissive. The Master/slave relationship is symbiotic. Each person, unique and dissimilar on practically every level, together functioning as one organism. Feeding off each other not in the parasitic sense but akin to a beautiful dance team knowing instinctively the partners next move.

(in reply to willing2serve)

Post #: 3

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/15/2005 9:59:38 AM

MsSilvie

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Joined: 2/4/2005
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"Dependent" can be a somewhat loaded word. So you might need to clarify that idea of dependence some more. Do I think a submissive should be dependable? Yes, a submissive should be reliable, honest, have strength of character, all those positive traits that keep popping up on other threads. If a submissive is dependable, then a dominant will depend on them. If not, there really isn't any way good way to make someone depend on someone independable.

(in reply to willing2serve)

Post #: 4

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/15/2005 10:24:05 AM

willing2serve

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Wow, I am impressed with the insight so far:

quote:

I would say that a Master is only complete when he is in the company of a submissive or he has taken on ownership of a slave. The distinction of 'complete' and 'dependent' may be ...

Wouldn't dependency go back to the power exchange itself, depending on each others needs being fulfilled?

quote:

I can't imagine a submissive or anyone doing that unless they were scared and insecure. However, there are plenty of scared and insecure subs out there and I know plenty play manipulation games to keep the dom where they want so it happens.

Is this topping from the bottom? or ensuring the dependency means the needs of your Master are fulfilled and satisfied to promote a life long relationship?

quote:

So you might need to clarify that idea of dependence some more.

I understand dependency to mean a need. Doesn't a Master "need" a slave as Merc says to be complete?

I am very interested to see where this thread will go.....

Respectfully,
Willing2serve1

< Message edited by willing2serve -- 3/15/2005 10:26:52 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 5

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/15/2005 10:53:09 AM

Alexander

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Joined: 12/10/2004
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I may be taking this in a tangent because it reminds me of something that’s been dwelling in my head lately. Keep in mind I ask more questions then I answer.

You ask ARE masters dependant. Which would imply a permanent state don’t you think? And if it doesn’t imply a permanent state of being then it becomes "when" are masters’ dependant which Merc and beth answer best when they describe the symbiotic connection between owner and slave. The question remains ARE masters dependant as if there is something that makes us NEED a slave in order to function. As if there is something about owning a person that implies a need that can't be met without it. Self-mastery being what it is and the feed and caring of another human being, being what it is, it feels like the opposite is true to me. If I discover I can't take care of everything I need for myself without a slave girl and thus NEED one for something, I would take that as a sign I am not strong enough to even consider taking a girl. But none of these ideas define me as independent or dependant as a permanent status do they?

There are two mindsets of the owner in this context. One, he/she is symbiotically linked to the slave and derives something of him/herself from the slave. Two, he/she completely transposes the relationship to one of property meaning the slave gives only what is taken for it's usefulness. This too could be seen as dependence as much as I depend on my car to get me to work and make me feel like a prince occasionally but I don't believe that is the sort of dependence you mean. I must have coffee in the morning and depend on a girl to get it if I have one but I depend on her to get it not because I can't get it myself but because if I can not depend on her to get it, I will have to punish her and thus ruin my mood, the thing the coffee is there to assuage in the first place. So which do I depend upon more, the girl to get it or the coffee?

Possible answer: A master depends on his property to fulfill its function. If it's function is to complete his being or life effortlessly because that is what it was created to do then the only obligation of that property is to continue to do so. It is not then the properties duty to cause the owner to remain "dependant" but rather to continue to understand and fulfill it's function because it must until it no longer can.

And what that answer leads me to believe is that when you say "depend" you do not mean depend in the same sense as I do here. How far away from NEED do you define "depend"?

Alex.

(in reply to MsSilvie)

Post #: 6

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/15/2005 12:18:00 PM

ElektraUkM

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Does a driver need a car..?

One can be 'one who drives'... and not have a car to drive...

But you can't be the active 'driver'... unless you're at the wheel..?

(same thing for a slave)

~ Elektra

(in reply to Alexander)

Post #: 7

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/15/2005 12:30:48 PM

BeachMystress

Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
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Am I dependant upon subs? I can live a happy life without one, so I'd say no to the generic sub.

Now I'll look at my sub in particular. *thinking* I really enjoy his submisiveness. *trying to think how I'd feel if he decided tomorrow that he wanted to just be vanilla* It would be an adjustment, but he as a person is more important than just his submission. This is a hard thing to separate out though, since a lot of his submission is outside the bedroom. Since he has a sweet and generous nature, I expect that would follow into vanilla life. I can see being happy in a more vanilla relationship with him. I don't think I depend upon his submission either.

Next, my sub as a person.. I don't NEED anyone. I'm a complete person in my own right. Do I want him? Oh yes! Most of my current happiness stems from him. I'd be devastated if something happened to him. I love and want him and would go through a lot to keep him in my life. Is that dependence? Not to me, but I am a commitmentphobe who is still getting over being twitchy about the desire to collar and keep him as a lifemate.

I don't think this is what you were getting at, but it is what came to mind when I read your question.

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

(in reply to willing2serve)

Post #: 8

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/15/2005 7:55:35 PM

Tallman

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Joined: 3/12/2005
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Good Evening to everyone!
I think Elektra is mostly right. Thanks to Willing for the excellent topic and everyone else for thoughtful answers.

I feel the tendency to deny, hide, or draw attention away from One's degree of need in a relationship of this kind can disguise dependency as pitiful as some subbie's willingness to do anything for some attention of whatever sort. One's degree of dominance is simply reflected in both the perfection of One's self-mastery and the quality of the person attracted to me and the depth of their regard. But a Dom with excellent self control and no sub is still just alone. So if relationships create the meaning upon which our lives ultimately draw much of their substance, we all, Dom and sub must submit to the demands of the relationship. So dependance is not on the sub but the dynamic which happens to require a sub in this case. Just not ANY sub will do.....

All this talk makes me want to spank someone!

(in reply to BeachMystress)

Post #: 9

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/15/2005 9:38:55 PM

Overlord218

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Joined: 1/26/2005
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And therein lies the Gordean Knot. As I read your post, the first thing to spring to mind is the scenario is a negative one. The reality is that a sub/slave who's trying to create that dependence (To Me) is "needy".

The very fact that she's serving her Dom/me should be enough in itself. Conversely, the fact the Dom/me is pleased by that is also enough.

_____________________________

Overlord 218

A little pain is good for the soul. Ask any masochist.

(in reply to willing2serve)

Post #: 10

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/16/2005 11:08:11 AM

MidnightWriter

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Joined: 2/8/2005
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As has been pointed out, the word "dependent" has some connotations that don't fit what I intend for my ownself.

I've depended upon submissives, and that's great when it works, and really bad when it doesn't. I do not, however, need a submissive to make me "whole" - if I'm not a reasonably whole person alone, adding a relationship isn't going to fix that.

If you're looking for a recipe for a dominant to absolutely need you, well - I'm not sure I approve of that goal, and I'm simply not going to help.

If you're looking for how to become invaluable to a domiant, that's a whole different ball game - my suggestions would be, in no particular order:

1 - Be strong. Dominating a limp noodle is like bench-pressing a feather - yes, it's easy, but it seems pretty pointless.

2 - Be useful. While I'll admire the sub who can pose nude, as decor, unmoving for an hour, I'll much more enjoy the submissive who notices that my coffee cup is getting low and offers me a refill.

3 - Be dependable. If you want to be relied upon, you've got to be someone who can be relied upon. If you want to be trusted, the simplest, most effective technique to achieve that is to be trustworthy.

I'd thought that there would be more suggestions, but, upon reflection, they're all covered by these three. In my view, the most important thing would be #3 - be dependable.

_____________________________

Power corrupts. Absolute power ... is really pretty nifty.

TIES - pansexual BDSM social group in MN, USA - http://www.ties-bdsm.org

(in reply to willing2serve)

Post #: 11

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/16/2005 11:20:44 AM

willing2serve

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quote:

If you're looking for a recipe for a dominant to absolutely need you, well - I'm not sure I approve of that goal, and I'm simply not going to help.

This would not be my attempt..This seems to be topping from the bottom, manipulating.

quote:

If you're looking for how to become invaluable to a domiant, that's a whole different ball game - my suggestions would be, in no particular order:

Invaluable is a better terminology and imo obedience would ensure this.

I do maintain that a D/s relationship is a power exchange each depending on each other for the common goal of the relationship.

So therefore my conclusion is a Master is dependent upon a submissive for the dynamics of the relationship and that a submissive needs (dependent upon) her Master, which doesn't make her "needy" and doesn't make the Master less independent or weak.

Respectfully,
Willing2serve1

_____________________________

Definitely A Journey!

(in reply to MidnightWriter)

Post #: 12

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/16/2005 11:57:24 AM

MidnightWriter

Posts: 131
Joined: 2/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: willing2serve

quote:

If you're looking for how to become invaluable to a domiant, that's a whole different ball game - my suggestions would be, in no particular order:

Invaluable is a better terminology and imo obedience would ensure this.

Obedience is an essential ingredient, but it alone is not enough to insure one's being invaluable to a dominant. There will be a number of factors, and those will vary to suit the individual dominant.

quote:

I do maintain that a D/s relationship is a power exchange each depending on each other for the common goal of the relationship.

So therefore my conclusion is a Master is dependent upon a submissive for the dynamics of the relationship and that a submissive needs (dependent upon) her Master, which doesn't make her "needy" and doesn't make the Master less independent or weak.

While it's true (and, IMO, screamingly obvious) that there can be no d/s without both a d and an s, it is, for some of us, a more complex dance than that.

When I dominate, I've gotten consent - beyond that, for d/s, I don't expect the submissive to match me in being proactive. If they're not particularly submissive at some point, I expect to dominate anyway - putting more energy into the moment than they, inspiring their submission. If I'm not feeling particularly domly, they have the option of expressing their submission clearly and loudly - and often, it will rekindle my dominant urges.

Just as in ballroom dance, in which backleading is "officially" discouraged, sometimes, it's called for in d/s as well.

I'm still not clear as to what you're driving at here, but if you're asserting that each person in a d/s relationship is equally important and valuable, neither more or less essential to the total dynamic than the other, then I'll agree with you.

_____________________________

Power corrupts. Absolute power ... is really pretty nifty.

TIES - pansexual BDSM social group in MN, USA - http://www.ties-bdsm.org

(in reply to willing2serve)

Post #: 13

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/16/2005 12:48:52 PM

willing2serve

Posts: 385
Joined: 4/6/2004
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quote:

I'm still not clear as to what you're driving at here, but if you're asserting that each person in a d/s relationship is equally important and valuable, neither more or less essential to the total dynamic than the other, then I'll agree with you.

Actually I left the topic as being vague. I wanted to see people's definition and reactions to the word dependent and how it fit into their personal dynamics.

This was not a topic to yell, I am a damsel (submissive) in distress how do I keep my Master?..woe is me..., but yes, a topic that does show my belief each person in the relationship is equally important.

Thank you for all of your insight.

Respectfully,
Willing2serve1

_____________________________

Definitely A Journey!

(in reply to MidnightWriter)

Post #: 14

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/16/2005 1:25:55 PM

darkinshadows

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Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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Master would say that He is dependant on Angel for our relationship to work.
He believes that everyone is dependant upon something or someone at sometime.

He always calls me His support. He taught me that like a good solid building has foundations to exist and beams to support the materials that encapsulate it.

Demon is also thinking, He will have to open an account as He is answer so much here these days!

Peace and Love

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to willing2serve)

Post #: 15

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/16/2005 2:16:15 PM

domtimothy46176

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I think I begin to see what you're asking, as well as where your own thoughts lead you. I had the fortune, some months ago, to see someone express what I was trying to explain to my girl when we discussed the nature of our value in our own relationship and our mutual understanding that it is a symbiotic one. While she will not acknowledge that we are, in fact, equals within the relationship, she does see that each of us has an equitable value in the eyes of the other. I value her submission just as much as she values my dominance. The dynamic may dictate that she follow where I lead, but both actions are of value and neither stands alone.
Timothy

(in reply to willing2serve)

Post #: 16

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/16/2005 4:44:43 PM

FangsNfeet

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I'm not dependent but it's nice having pet clean my dishes and do my laundry thus giving me a chance to relax a little bit.

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Post #: 17

RE: Masters Dependent? - 3/16/2005 8:50:05 PM

CitizenCane

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'Independence' is an illusion. All are interdependent, whether we know it or not, whether we acknowledge it or not. The feeling of independence comes from not perceiving the real connections between people, or from a sense that your relationship with person A can easily be replaced with person B. I think recognizing interdependence is a healthier state of mind.

Citizen Cane

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 18

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