RE: The Shape of Submission (Full Version)

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KnightofMists -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/18/2007 5:44:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

And seeking to meet your need to please and serve isn't selfish?



"Need" for many denotes a lack of choice in the matter.   Do to this prespective... it is logical to consider that "the need to please" could be considered a selfless act.

However,  The logic may fall apart when one considers

"I need to breath.. Only if I want to live"

In otherwords...  often our needs are actually motivated by a desire and want that is of a more basic level.  "the need to please" could actually be motivated by the deeper desire to be true to ones inner nature.  Such motivation ould be considered more a choice to be true to this inner nature than it is a uncontrolled drive from one's inner nature

There is also the consideration that we as human beings are driven to live.   That the drive to live is something that is inherent to being human.  In this context.  Needing to breath is only a further evidence that I am driven to live without choice.  It may be considered that those who commit suicide are making a choice of not living.  Therefore this would be evidence that we has humans are making a choice to live, even if such a choice is so deep within our psyche that we are not consciously aware of the choice.  In fact that we only become aware of such a choice when faced with extreme situations.  Otherwise we can go through life without any conscious awareness of the choice we are empowered to make.

So to end my little path of thought.  I think that the "need to please" is very much a reflection of a deeper motivation that is rooted as a choice.  Be that choice is something we are consciously aware of or not.



juliaoceania -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/18/2007 5:50:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure
And seeking to meet your need to please and serve isn't selfish?

Props feelings are that she did NOT seek to please and that her need to please is actually not at all something that brings her happiness.  Her world is not structured to allow herself to think in those terms.


From the standpoint of the therapy I received, I remember my therapist stating that I got something out of behaviors that I engaged in, or I would not engage in them. Once I ceased to get whatever it was out of what I was doing, I would cease to do it. He thought this was a universal concept to human beings, I tended to agree with him. There was something I get out of a certain phobia I have, or I would overcome it.

Now apply that concept to the one that losttreasure brought up, it may not be happiness that daddysprop gets out of her situation, but she is getting something or she wouldn't be doing it, whether her universe is set up to acknowledge it or it isn't... is that a seed of selfishness on her part?... from all I have read from her, I am hoping a seed of selfishness exists there... Why? She may need it to survive one day



slavemaia -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/18/2007 5:51:14 PM)

quote:

Is your submission shaped and offered to fit your fantasies or is your submission a selfless act, not a self destructive act, but a selfless act? If you answer "both" than isn't it a constant battle to fulfill both sides of the equation, ie please your dom and please yourself, and is this why some subs naturally end up questioning their submission? 


At first my submission was definitely shaped to fit my fantasies and i did view the relinquishment of them as a selfless act. But that's before i really tasted submission - i mean the heart and soul of it, the heat, the passion, the fire that burns that nothing but surrender feeds. There was a power struggle and a battle for quite some time. But little by little i turned from a bottom to a slave because it's what i craved in my heart and Chairman has very patiently and wisely helped me realize it. my devotion to, and love for Him now is so deep that i can't help be be extremely pleased by pleasing Him in whatever form.
 



SlyStone -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/18/2007 6:03:45 PM)

my submission is selfless (and self-destructive).


You sound like a tragic character in a Dostoevsky novel where life is a prison sentence and death a reprieve. A bit overly dramatic, but I have no reason to doubt the truth behind your words.

Many people  chose a path of self destruction through drugs or liquor or smoking or whatever, so why not your way, and while I see nothing nothing noble or admirable in choosing or fantasizing a life of self destruction, it is your life to do as you chose.

I just wouldn't call it D/s.



Mercnbeth -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/18/2007 6:38:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

Is your submission shaped and offered to fit your fantasies or is your submission a selfless act, not a self destructive act, but a selfless act? If you answer "both" than isn't it a constant battle to fulfill both sides of the equation, ie please your dom and please yourself, and is this why some subs naturally end up questioning their submission? 


fulfilling Master's fantasies, being pleasing to Master brings this slave joy and satisfaction, therefore, it can't be ALL self-less, because this slave does receive that fulfillment from serving Him.  However, HE dictates what "serving" is.
 
Master rewards a good slave, sometimes with things He knows specifically bring her pleasure.  as far as fantasies go~He decides where, when, with who and IF it will even ever happen and knows all of the fantasies that dance through this slave's mind. 
 
this slave's submission is celebrated, thanks to Master!!!  Why?  allowing this slave to serve Him in the manner He chooses fulfills this slave and is not a fantasy, but a reality.



Devilslilsister -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/18/2007 6:47:04 PM)

submission is shaped like a pear



BitaTruble -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/18/2007 6:52:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


Given that some or perhaps most peoples primary focus is on fulfilling their own needs, after all it is human nature and so why should a submissive be an different, is their submission secondary to their need fulfillment, that is, is it a vehicle to get there, not the primary need or motivation?




Actually, this is much clearer to me, thank you. :)

To answer: Submission is my fullfillment and more than that, being inspired to submit, to me, is akin to being inspired to create great works of art or wonderous symphonies. It's neither selfish nor unselfish.

Submission is also my agony. It's what causes me to second guess, stress, and struggle. It forces me to adapt, to ponder, to reflect on things, even very painful parts of myself that I'd rather not face. Being inspired to submit causes me tears and torment, it's the black hole sucking down every part of me, hoping that I won't be crushed by it's gravity.

Submission is light and fluffy, dark and heavy.. it is life, helping me to grow and expand my thinking and it is death, killing off the parts of me that need to die even when that makes me scream.

Call it the vehicle, the catalyst, but whatever it is, it's not necessary for me to live, but it is necessary for me to live well in who I am.

I don't think it's a dumb question at all and whether or not I've answered it, that's the answer you get from a sleep deprived, hormonal wench such as myself. [:)]

Celeste



juliaoceania -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/18/2007 6:54:22 PM)

Celeste, I love reading you, the way you express yourself



BitaTruble -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/18/2007 7:13:02 PM)

Thank you, Julia! What a sweet thing to say and might I add, you are someone whom I read on a regular basis and thoroughly enjoy. [:)]

Celeste



losttreasure -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/18/2007 7:34:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

And seeking to meet your need to please and serve isn't selfish?


Props feelings are that she did NOT seek to please and that her need to please is actually not at all something that brings her happiness.  Her world is not structured to allow herself to think in those terms.


I don't mean to be disrespectful of your views, Prop.  In one respect, I do understand what you meant... but as both KoM and Julia have pointed out, actions to meet needs don't necessarily have to be conscious to be self-serving.

I once wrote in a thread here on service:

"... I don't buy into the idea of "selfless service".

For me, service is a means to achieve an end. Despite all the controversy over "it isn’t all about you", when all is said and done, it really is "all about me". At least from my perspective.

Every action in life provides a positive reward for the doer, and all actions are motivated by "selfish" desires. Every decision I make... every function I perform, I do so because in the end it serves some need or desire of mine. Even those activities that might otherwise be considered involuntary, serve me... submitting to a rapist at knifepoint would be horrendous, but the decision to relent serves my hope to survive."

While you may not actively control how your need to please is used today, the initial choice to allow yourself to be owned was yours.  Whether born out of desire or instinct, whether it brought you happiness or sorrow, your choice ultimately served you. 



behindmirrors -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/18/2007 8:11:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

Is your submission shaped and offered to fit your fantasies or is your submission a selfless act, not a self destructive act, but a selfless act?

 
My submission is a selfish act, not a selfless one. It is also not self-destructive, but instead self-enhancing. I serve because I want to, I asked for him to accept me as his own because I wanted to belong to him. If either of these things did not fulfill me in some way, I wouldn't have brought it up or asked. If my fantasies are chosen to be indulged by him, wonderful- and if his are chosen to be fulfilled by me, wonderful. I will gladly and selfishly take full advantage of participation, either way.
 
quote:
If you answer "both" than isn't it a constant battle to fulfill both sides of the equation, ie please your dom and please yourself, and is this why some subs naturally end up questioning their submission? 


I please myself by pleasing him (this is a big component of selfishly serving him- I am doing it for my own perogative of finding pleasure in doing so), and he allows and encourages this pleasure. He is not the type to make me do something simply because I dislike or fear it, nor to "force" me to do anything- he has his reasons- even though I may not always know what they are, I can generally assume he wants me to experience something or confront something in a way that I can handle and he thinks I am ready for. As for force, it is hard to force a willing person, and I am willing.

I have not (as of yet) really questioned my submission- I have questioned how I arrived at this point, and I have questioned why I do what I do, but I have not questioned why I am actually submissive. I know that I chose this in free will, because it fulfills me to do so. I can't think of any other reason.

Hope this helps-
behindmirrors.



SlyStone -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/19/2007 6:55:09 AM)

Thanks to all for responding.



PS

Nothing is going to stop people who are starved for attention from coming to this board and attempting to get it here and no one is going to dictate what postings people respond to and read, nor does anyone have that right.

Posting boards flow as they will and anyone trying to change that flow is only banging their head against the wall.

But the quality of postings offered to this thread from you people are one of the many  reasons I keep coming back here, and that is good enough for me.



toservez -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/19/2007 8:30:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

The idea that subs/slaves should always be selfless is the really self-destructive lie.  As long as people hold onto that lie, then things will constantly be at odds.

Once people realize that we consent to relationships in order to have the situation which fulfills EVERYONE, the odds fall away. 

I wouldn't be with a partner who was willing to settle for less than what they knew would be good and right for themselves.


This is beautifully written and comes down to the heart of the matter. Being submissive does not relinquish natural human attributes that cannot be tossed away by logical over simplification thinking.

Submissives get something out of serving and we are as selfish as any other people on the planet.

For me and I am assuming most slaves and maybe subs the decision of what is a hard limit is not really based on the physical pleasure or lack of physical pleasure but being able to do something that does not cause damage to oneself or the relationship. The two big ones which have been mentioned monogamy and bisexuality are perfect examples and really the reasons behind a person not willing to do something is basically irrelevant. Communication is in order as whether something can be worked through or both parties have to accept a limit as etched in stone.

For me personally there are a lot of things that I have done that I take zero pleasure to find really tough to do but I do them anyways and look forward to it. While there may be no physical pleasure or any other pleasure during these acts, I am still very much personally gaining a benefit from doing them. I do get off on the power exchange of these acts, being able to show my devotion in more then just words or common acts and absorbing the pleasure my Master has in doing them. So there is very much a long term/after the fact strong positive about doing acts that I get no immediate pleasure from and as some others wrote, they very much can deepen the relationship for me.





azzmaster -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/19/2007 8:48:14 AM)

well OP there are alot of subs that r not really submissive they just have a few fantasies they want someone to act out. most subs will do stuff they find uncomfortable if they want to please u. a subs pleasure is thru pleasin not thru bossin the dom around. just stay away from subs who try to top from the bottom, or when they do shove a gag or ur dick in their mouth.



SirDominic -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/19/2007 9:22:08 AM)

Sly, the magic coin to forcing a sub/slave to do what they are uncomfortable with is actually quite simple. A good Dom/Master knows, often to a very exacting degree, what theirs subs need to experience for their growth as opposed to what would simply embarras or aggravate them.

It is the Master's responsibility to know the difference, and if they don't, to talk with their slave until they do. This is assuming the relationship is one where both Master and slave are interested in a positive self-esteem growth to their journey. Even people into healthy S/M know this difference. As a matter of fact, it is even more critical for the Master to know in what areas and how far the slave can be pushed; as humiliation wrongly applied can be devastating to the slave.

Namaste, Sir Dominic



march1224 -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/19/2007 7:15:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


Given that some or perhaps most peoples primary focus is on fulfilling their own needs, after all it is human nature and so why should a submissive be an different, is their submission secondary to their need fulfillment, that is, is it a vehicle to get there, not the primary need or motivation?




Actually, this is much clearer to me, thank you. :)

To answer: Submission is my fullfillment and more than that, being inspired to submit, to me, is akin to being inspired to create great works of art or wonderous symphonies. It's neither selfish nor unselfish.

Submission is also my agony. It's what causes me to second guess, stress, and struggle. It forces me to adapt, to ponder, to reflect on things, even very painful parts of myself that I'd rather not face. Being inspired to submit causes me tears and torment, it's the black hole sucking down every part of me, hoping that I won't be crushed by it's gravity.

Submission is light and fluffy, dark and heavy.. it is life, helping me to grow and expand my thinking and it is death, killing off the parts of me that need to die even when that makes me scream.

Call it the vehicle, the catalyst, but whatever it is, it's not necessary for me to live, but it is necessary for me to live well in who I am.



Very well said, Celeste. I learn so much from those of you who've been doing this a while. When I question myself, or him, it's always good to know that someone else has felt these things. Thanks for sharing.



mons -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/20/2007 1:36:07 AM)

greetings

i do not ever demand ask or want my slaves to do this with another man but i had many who want to do this and are bisexual this is not something i care for i do not like to share but what someone kink is. is ok but this isone if not for me

mons



SlyStone -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/20/2007 5:27:58 AM)



I agree that a good dominant will shape and guide his submissive to fit both his and her needs and hopefully to create growth for both.

But, I think superseding that is the sub herself shaping her own submission to fit her own needs through the implementation of limits/conditions.

And while limits/conditions change over time, and a dominant will guide and shape, ultimately the change has to come from within the submissive for it to be at all meaningful.

And perhaps that is the difference between being selfless and being self aware.



charismagirrl -> RE: The Shape of Submission (2/20/2007 8:51:49 AM)

First let me say that there has been so much great insight here (as usual)  slavemaia- i can so relate to your words,beautifully said.

When i came into my relationship with my Daddy i came with a "shape" to my submission that had alot to do with fantasies, they were basically what i knew. Things that i thought were a given or things i thought were "supposed to be"s accross the board. (HA! little did i know of all the pretty shades of grey in between the blk and wht) Over the past year specifically my Daddy has been changing my "shape" and teaching me soooo much about really pleasing, motivations behind your acts (selfish vs. selfless), teaching me that selfishness isn't really so bad and some things that you think are selfless are really selfish.

my submissive nature is something that is/was always there but my Daddy is teaching me so much more about it that i am becoming something new entirely. i've put some of my fantasies about being a slave aside and am realizing that i truly have something with alot more substance that what i ever dreamed i would/could.(not a bad trade if i do say so myself)

One important lesson i am learning in regard to all of this is that i need to just trust that my Daddy knows me and knows what's best for me. my fears are a way to control things, and i need to let go of those fears to grow...asking a zillion questions about what will happen at a certain event or time is my subconscious trying to gain some control yet again. Subtle little ways that i never knew were trying to take control away from my Daddy.

Do i give/get what my original shape thought i would give/get, sure sometimes....Do i give/get stuff that is waaaaay better? Absoultely. i am learning to serve in a way that is much more pleasing to my Daddy and much more fulfilling to me.

Pardon me if i went somewhere off topic (not so sure if i did or not) it's early and i haven't had enough coffee




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