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The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 8:01:41 AM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
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There is much talk here about being asked/forced to do things that one does not want to do, such as bisexuality or anal, things that many vanilla women would willingly experiment with to please their partners.

While many subs say that yeah they would do it if they have to, the tone of the postings are that they would rather not and that if the dominant makes them do it there may be some kind of a change in the relationship.

But I think If this was a fantasy that they wanted to realize than they would embrace the suggestion, perhaps even using it as an excuse to realize something that they would otherwise not have the courage or inclination to do on their own. And so they do it and everyone gets what they want.

But what about the times when the sub and dom have different fantasies? Naturally there is self doubt, questioning and debate, and so I wonder:

Is your submission shaped and offered to fit your fantasies or is your submission a selfless act, not a self destructive act, but a selfless act? If you answer "both" than isn't it a constant battle to fulfill both sides of the equation, ie please your dom and please yourself, and is this why some subs naturally end up questioning their submission?

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

Post #: 1

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 8:12:34 AM

SimplySubmissive

Posts: 216
Joined: 1/2/2004
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I think you have to find a partner that has compatible interests and fantasies in general, but also, to please someone is part of my submissive personality, so even if something is not my "fantasy" I would get pleasure from doing it to please another, as long as it's not a hard limit. Kind of like the bisexual 2 girls thing. A sub may not be bisexual, but knowing that this is a powerful fantasy for he Dom, it would be fun to do for him. also there is that whole following instructions thing..;)

< Message edited by SimplySubmissive -- 2/18/2007 8:34:52 AM >

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 2

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 8:31:36 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
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There are many women out there that would love to try anal or bi however do to strict up bringing perfer to be "FORCED"...BH

_____________________________

US going to hell in a hand basket/

(in reply to SimplySubmissive)

Post #: 3

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 8:36:27 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

Is your submission shaped and offered to fit your fantasies or is your submission a selfless act, not a self destructive act, but a selfless act? If you answer "both" than isn't it a constant battle to fulfill both sides of the equation, ie please your dom and please yourself, and is this why some subs naturally end up questioning their submission?

I'm not exactly sure what it is that you're trying to determine.. my only answer is that being found pleasing is pleasing to me and if there's something that I would desire to try, I need only ask and Himself will or will not indulge me at his whim. If he does, then we get to try something new and if he doesn't, then we don't.

Maybe I'm too simple-minded. ::laughs::

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 4

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 8:44:43 AM

ownedgirlie

Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

I'm not exactly sure what it is that you're trying to determine.. my only answer is that being found pleasing is pleasing to me and if there's something that I would desire to try, I need only ask and Himself will or will not indulge me at his whim. If he does, then we get to try something new and if he doesn't, then we don't.

Maybe I'm too simple-minded. ::laughs::

Celeste

Celeste kind of took the words out of my mouth. I've had to do stuff I would have rather not done at the time, but I did it, and the only change in the relationship was that it grew stronger. When he beams with pride and pleasure, I only want to do more, and in fact, beg for more of the hard stuff.

As for things I would like to do - I mention them and he decides if we do them or not. He's agreed to stuff he had not wanted or had no interest in doing before, and enjoyed it because of my reactions to him.

We both grow and stretch in this relationship. I can't imagine it any other way.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 5

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 8:53:51 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

For me submission is not a selfless act. I am not a martyr. I get many benefits from being submissive, such as expressing my nature. It is about "us", it is not a "he", it is not a "me", it is a "we".. and this is the synergy we seek. He will at times do things just for my pleasure, the difference is that he decides when those times are, not me. I will definitely do things that are for his pleasure only, again he decides when that is, not me.

As far as fantasies and fulfillment. I understand that some submissives need to be ordered to engage in the activity so they can enjoy it, permission if you will. I am not such a submissive, but orders are a big part of just regular sex for me... so we are all different.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 6

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 9:32:22 AM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

Maybe I'm too simple-minded. ::laughs::

You are defiantly not simple minded and it's my fault for not being more clear, than again it could just be a stupid question:)

Lets try removing the word fantasy and replacing it with the word need.

Given that some or perhaps most peoples primary focus is on fulfilling their own needs, after all it is human nature and so why should a submissive be an different, is their submission secondary to their need fulfillment, that is, is it a vehicle to get there, not the primary need or motivation?

In other words do some/all people shape their submission to fit their needs and if so does that make them less of a sub/slave than one who claims to be selfless?

I don't think it does, but I would imagine there are some who would disagree, I was curious to hear others opinions/ideas.

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 7

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 10:52:44 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone
Is your submission shaped and offered to fit your fantasies or is your submission a selfless act, not a self destructive act, but a selfless act? If you answer "both" than isn't it a constant battle to fulfill both sides of the equation, ie please your dom and please yourself, and is this why some subs naturally end up questioning their submission?

The idea that subs/slaves should always be selfless is the really self-destructive lie. As long as people hold onto that lie, then things will constantly be at odds.

Once people realize that we consent to relationships in order to have the situation which fulfills EVERYONE, the odds fall away.

I wouldn't be with a partner who was willing to settle for less than what they knew would be good and right for themselves.

< Message edited by LuckyAlbatross -- 2/18/2007 10:53:34 AM >

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 8

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 11:15:57 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

Both and no there is no problem because I was sensible to find a partner who would not force me to fulfill his fantasy already knowing that it would prove damaging to me. Which is why he's not getting the threesome of his dreams; I'm not bi, I'm insecure as hell, and I would lose trust in him if he demanded that already knowing the first two which he does.

We do something you may want to consider. We talk everything over exhaustively to see if there might be any problems and we do our best to solve the problems ahead of time, to go slowly during the trial run, and talk about it afterwards as much and as often as either of us needs to.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 9

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 11:35:58 AM

puella

Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

Hello SlyStone,

I have a bit of trouble with your question...

Being submissive is not something that is based wholly upon another, as I see it. It is an organic part of who I am, just as any other personality trait... "I am.... intelligent, funny, stubborn, submissive, sensitive..." etc etc.

My submission is not shaped to fit anything.. it just is. As one who is submissive by nature, I am usually compelled to try to please others before myself, especially if it is someone with whom I have done some sort of conscious 'surrendering'.

To think that a person can not be 'forced' into things because the nature of the relationship is consensual, is a bit naive, I think. One does not have to use physical force or even things perceived as negative to force someone to do what they wish, and in a relationship like one built on such strong motivators as dominance and submission, the building blocks to ensure your will can be laid so that 'force' is much more subtle than those of conventional relationships.

Because there may be negative repercussions to 'forced' desires does not mean that there is some sort of manipulation or retribution being enforced upon the Dominant by the submissive. Like it or not, almost any action has a reaction. You are dealing with a woman, not a fembot, and sometimes, forcing what pleases you upon one you know who will do it out of love and submission for you, might manifest side effects (like, sadness, depression, self loathing, etc) if not managed well.

At some point, the submissive hands over her decisions to the dominant for his pleasure. When we make decisions for ourselves, we accept the responsibility of the repercussions of those decisions. When taking on the decisions for a sub, you also take on the repercussions for those decisions, good and bad.

I do not know why we have so much trouble understanding emotion/subconscious repercussions. Were you to want to fuck your slave tied in an improbable position for hours on end, you would more likely than not question the nature of her submission were she to develop some sort of muscle strain or carpel tunnel or what have you due to the position you put her in. I do not understand why it is so much easier to question the nature of her submission for the emotionally compromising positions one might put her in?

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 10

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 11:39:56 AM

puella

Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

BTW... the shape of my submission is a rhombus. hehe

(in reply to puella)

Post #: 11

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 11:53:26 AM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

I wouldn't be with a partner who was willing to settle for less than what they knew would be good and right for themselves.

I could not agree more.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 12

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 11:59:02 AM

BRNaughtyAngel

Posts: 1821
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

There is much talk here about being asked/forced to do things that one does not want to do, such as bisexuality or anal, things that many vanilla women would willingly experiment with to please their partners.

I have to agree with much of what the other ladies wrote, especially Puella (lovely response).

But I wanted to specifically address this part of your post.

Most vanilla women I know, no matter how much they loved their partners, would tell them to go **** themselves if their partner seriously brought up them having sex with another woman or having a threesome, just so their partner could get his jollies.

Anal sex would lead to a big fat NO from them as well.

I have more guy friends/buddies than female, and they'll tell you that they feel lucky to get sex sometimes, and a blowjob is like Christmas!

So the idea that vanilla women are more willing to do (fill in the blank) simply for their partners pleasure is amusing to me.

I seek to please the one I serve, so even though I may not get pleasure from some specific act, I am pleasing Him and that's what matters to me. So although the act itself may not be something ~I~ would choose to do outside of our relationship, I am more than willing to do it to please Him.

What I see here is a lot of sub/slaves who want to please their dom/master, so when he wants something that the sub/slave isn't keen on, or has no experience with, they may come here for advice, opinions, experiences or just to know that others have been where they are.

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 13

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 12:00:54 PM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

I do not understand why it is so much easier to question the nature of her submission for the emotionally compromising positions one might put her in?

I am not questioning anyones submission or judging anyones idea of what their submission is. If anything I am agreeing with you and trying to point out that people try to make this more than it is.There is nothing wrong with refusing to do something that would damage you as a person, lets just agree upfront that the right to refuse exists and therefore the idea of selfless submission is at best a fantasy and at worst self destruction.

At some point, the submissive hands over her decisions to the dominant for his pleasure.

I am not so sure that is true. nor do I think that it is necessary in a D/s dynamic. You hand over power and control but only up to a point, some people call those points limits while others may call them conditions. It really makes no difference if these limits/conditions were negotiated at the beginning or during the relationship, only that they exist.

(in reply to puella)

Post #: 14

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 12:03:25 PM

SlyStone

Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline

So the idea that vanilla women are more willing to do (fill in the blank) simply for their partners pleasure is amusing to me.

That is not what I said. I was trying to point out that there is really very little difference between a vanilla and a D/s relationship when we get down to base needs and base limits/conditions.

(in reply to BRNaughtyAngel)

Post #: 15

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 12:54:29 PM

amiciaN

Posts: 228
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

...Is your submission shaped and offered to fit your fantasies or is your submission a selfless act, not a self destructive act, but a selfless act? If you answer "both" than isn't it a constant battle to fulfill both sides of the equation, ie please your dom and please yourself, and is this why some subs naturally end up questioning their submission?

I have to answer both, but is it not a constant battle because my basic need is to submit. I crave His guidence, His reassurance, His protection, His attention and yes, His affection. When it comes to kinks, the physical aspect has never been as important to me as the mental/emotional issues, but pleasing Him is extremely gratifying to me. Since we are long distance and have limited time to physically be together, we are still exploring that aspect of the relationship too.

My submission is shaped by who I am and my needs. His dominance is shaped by who He is and His needs. We were fortunate enough to find a corresponding shape that fits very, very well. Too many people "settle" and neither me or my Master did. We waited until we found someone who truly matched our own needs and desires. I think that is the key to any relationship, vanilla or not.

As always, this is only my opinion and my experience. ymmv.

_____________________________

NChaka's amicia

I have never been lifted so high as when I kneel at His feet.

(in reply to SlyStone)

Post #: 16

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 1:06:00 PM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

You are all the woman I need
And baby you know it
(Know it, know it, know it)
You can make this beggar a king
A clown or a poet
(Poet, poet, poet)
I'll give you all that I own
You got me standing in line
Out in the cold
Pay me some mind

Bend me, shape me
Anyway you want me
Long as you love me
It's all right
Bend me, shape me
Anyway you want me
You got the power to turn on the light

Everybody tells me I'm wrong
To want you so badly
(Badly, badly, badly)
But there's a force driving me on
I follow it gladly
(Gladly, gladly, gladly)
So let them laugh I don't care
'Cause I got nothing to hide
All that I want is you by my side

Bend me, shape me
Anyway you want me
Long as you love me
It's all right
Bend me, shape me
Anyway you want me
You got the power
To turn on the light

Yeah, bend me, shape me
Anyway you want me
Long as you love me
It's all right
Bend me, shape me
Anyway you want me
You got the power
To turn on the light

The American Breed.

I think that about says 'er all..............

LOL,
Ron

Or you could do the beetlejuice think with MissArgentina

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to amiciaN)

Post #: 17

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 1:47:21 PM

daddysprop247

Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline

my submission is selfless (and self-destructive). it's more an instinct than a desire. my need to please and serve overrides any personal desires or wishes i may have.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 18

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 5:06:55 PM

losttreasure

Posts: 875
Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

my submission is selfless (and self-destructive). it's more an instinct than a desire. my need to please and serve overrides any personal desires or wishes i may have.

And seeking to meet your need to please and serve isn't selfish?

_____________________________

Just because it isn't "all about me", doesn't make it "all about you".

(in reply to daddysprop247)

Post #: 19

RE: The Shape of Submission - 2/18/2007 5:29:32 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure
And seeking to meet your need to please and serve isn't selfish?

Props feelings are that she did NOT seek to please and that her need to please is actually not at all something that brings her happiness. Her world is not structured to allow herself to think in those terms.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to losttreasure)

Post #: 20

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