RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised?

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I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised?

Should people be allowed to die with dignity yes

94% (35)

Or no.

5% (2)

Total Votes : 37

(last vote on : 2/4/2008 3:42:26 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

petdave -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/24/2007 11:15:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Which brings me to another question: If people cannot even legally sell their own organs in the U.S., why are considering telling them it is legally okay to end their own (or another's) life? (this line of reasoning may make no sense to some people, but it makes sense to me). - Susan We have a lot of illogical and counterintuitive laws eliminating people's rights over their own bodies. Personally, i think it should be legal to sell organs (and newborns, for that matter, though i know i'm in the minority on that one). If you don't have true ownership over your own body, and it is merely the property of the State, we have a hell of a lot of chutzpah to still use the phrase "land of the free" with anything other than sarcastic disdain. Assisted suicide, drug prohibition, etc., all fall into the same category. Now, the issue of medical care and money as pertains to assisted suicide... man, that's a thorny one. The problem is, there are finite resources. Insurance companies have finite resources. Even the government has finite resources, though some people find it hard to believe (obviously, their tax bill isn't as high as mine... where do you think all that money comes from?) Until someone perfects faith healing, decisions have to be made on when a life is not economically feasible, or else, as medical science grows more sophisticated in its abilities to maintain some semblance of "life" almost indefinitely (Terry Schiavo), it will reach a breaking point. Some, especially people who have to arrange for their own medical insurance, would argue that it already has. It's a very grim and troubling reality, but reality, more often than not, can be like that.

SusanofO -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthaniasia be legalised? (2/24/2007 11:16:02 AM)
Rosa: I could not agree with you more. I just ran across an interesting statistic. The death rate for infants in the Netherlands, since the enactment of their Euthanasia laws is, by lethal injection, - 8%. 8% of all Dutch babies are deemed to have lives that are "unliveable" by doctors and-or parents there. To me, that's a pretty high percentage - especially for a country that supposedly has the highest quality of health-care in the world. - Susan

NorthernGent -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/24/2007 11:30:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Here in the U.S., I see us as having this entire question be a bit more of an issue that requires us to think it over deeply too, because it is a serious question, but also simply because we don't have national health care coverage for our citizens (I wish we did, but we don't). I see a definite conflict-of-interest between insurance companies and their ability to make "quality of life" decisions, due to the financial implications, regradless of the fact it is supposed to be the doctor and-or the patient who makes the decision about what constitutes a "quality of life", and how much of an obigation they have to fund one. Nail on the head, IMO. There are serious ethical issues in a country where health care is privatised. You have the whole profit v social responsibility issue. With this in mind, I can't see how life or death decisions can be placed in the hands of profit making organisations. A related point, a British doctor will deal with a patient for decades, unless you move to another area, of course. I'm not sure if this is the case in the US, but the point is made in the article i.e. the same level of familiarity exists in The Netherlands - hence the trust placed in doctors.

NorthernGent -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthaniasia be legalised? (2/24/2007 11:33:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO Rosa: I could not agree with you more. I just ran across an interesting statistic. The death rate for infants in the Netherlands, since the enacctment of their Euthanasia laws is, by lethal injection, - 8%. 8% of all Dutch babies are deemed to have lives that are "unliveable" by doctors and-or parents there. To me, that's a pretty high percentage - especially for a country that supposedly has the highest quality of health-care in the world. - Susan I find that staggering and it doesn't fit with the "unbearable suffering" definition.

SusanofO -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/24/2007 11:36:47 AM)
I really liked Britain whe I saw it for the first time last Summer. I realize taxes are higher there, but I am starting to wonder when we are going to get on-the-ball in the U.S., as far as making sure health-care is affordable for everyone. It's just a mess, IMO, because the insurance lobbyists who try to influence Congress and the Senate just have so much money to toss around - and they definitely can (and do) influence legislation, and it doesn't reallly look that likely they are willing to give up this "perk." If I think about it too much, it just makes me really angry. - Susan

SusanofO -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthaniasia be legalised? (2/24/2007 11:41:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO I just ran across an interesting statistic. The death rate for infants in the Netherlands, since the enacctment of their Euthanasia laws is, by lethal injection, - 8%. 8% of all Dutch babies are deemed to have lives that are "unliveable" by doctors and-or parents there. To me, that's a pretty high percentage - especially for a country that supposedly has the highest quality of health-care in the world. - Susan I find that staggering and it doesn't fit with the "unbearable suffering" definition. Well it definitely makes me wonder what is going on. I have to go to work this afternoon - but maybe I can find out more info about it via research when I get back tonight. Thanks for the article you forwarded - it was really unbiased - and it listed several cases at the end where there were definite voiltations of Dutch euthanaisa laws by doctors - and those doctors were, in fact, prosecuted, so they do prosecute some of them anyway. This is just such a complex issue, I think. - Susan

NorthernGent -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/24/2007 11:56:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO I really liked Britain whe I saw it for the first time last Summer. I realize taxes are higher there, but I am starting to wonder when we are going to get on-the-ball in the U.S., as far as making sure healh-care is affordable for everyone. Personally, I love it here and if we're going to bang on about being fair and supporters of the underdog (as we consistently do), then it's only right to put our money where our mouths are and actually be fair and support the underdog. Hence, social provision. Taxes are relatively high here, but you get what you pay for. On the negative side, we pay taxes towards the government's incursions into Iraq and the like, so it's not all a bed of roses. In terms of euthanasia, you're right, it is such a complex issue. I can understand what the Dutch are trying to achieve and I take my hat off to them for that. Ultimately however I can't agree for the reasons stated. No problem with the article :-) It will be interesting to see what is happening with this 8%.

SusanofO -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/24/2007 10:11:33 PM)
*NorthernGent:* I need to amend my previous statement. It should have read: 8% of all infant deaths in the Netherlands are by lethal injection from a doctor now - not that doctros euthanize 8% of all infants (I mis-interpreted the statement I read. Sorry. But I am glad it's not happening, because it just seemed like an alarming statistic!) Anyway, here is a *very interesting article* (I thought anway) I found that I thought you (and whoever else might be interested) might find interesting - http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=3494 If you read it, I recommend skippinng down to the middle and starting w/the stats in the Remmelink Report - that part has some relevant and interesting statistics re: How Euthanasia is carried out in the Netherlands in actual practice, vs. the theory and also vs. the actual laws that are in place. The rest of it is pretty long, but some of it is really interesting. For instance: Of the 8,100 people "euthanized" by the Dutch in 1990, via morhpine drip, 61% of them died "without request or consent" (in other words, it was not their decision). Also worth noting in particular (to me) was that 11% of all medical decision-making in the Netherlands by doctors now revolves around the decision to end lives. *Also worth noting is that since this Remmelink Report* was a study organized by the Dutch government, the figures are probably higher (one independent study found that 41% of Dutch doctors under-reported euthanizing patients.) Hope whoever else reads it (or parts of it) finds it interesting, and informative... -Susan

denika -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/24/2007 10:31:02 PM)
In my work in the health care industry I have come across a few humane Doctors who would not so much euthinise terminally ill patients but in the end stages they would make it easier with higher doses of pain meds that slow down respiratory rates. Both my parents died horrible lingering deaths of cancer and with both they were lucky enough in the end for their treating Dr. to have mercy and help them on the way. There is that fine line between suicide and the choice of euthenasia, I think life should be fought for (eg, treatments) but there is a point when the quality of life and the quantity come into question and that is when (IMO) when there are no more repreives and no amount of treatment is going to change the outcome it should be our choice how we leave this word and going with a bit of dignity intact and in peace is a much better ending than the alternative. denika

SusanofO -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/24/2007 10:59:36 PM)
I agree with that scenario, Denika. In practice, it might actually work that way here - but - it certainly hasn't seemd to work that way in the Netherlands, though (see above site reference, if interested). It scares me, in many ways. - Susan

denika -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/25/2007 1:25:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO I agree with that scenario, Denika. In practice, it might actually work that way here - but - it certainly hasn't seemd to work that way in the Netherlands, though (see above site reference, if interested). It scares me, in many ways. - Susan I am in agreement there, scary.. Each situation is going to be diffrent and the judgement call is not one I wish on any person. denika

TheGaggingWh0re -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/25/2007 3:08:58 AM)
I am all for it. Why? Because I'm not one of those people lying in bed and dying from a very painful disease who is requesting that their life be taken. If they have other options, like, "We can put you on a morphine drip so you can trip your ass off until the end", then those ought to be available as well. Either way, it's not my choice what happens to the chronically ill. It is, however, my choice to give them a choice by saying, "Sure, if you want to kill yourself, here's my vote." In the end, they choose yes or no, and it is rightfully their choice.

NorthernGent -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/25/2007 3:33:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO *NorthernGent:* I need to amend my previous statement. It should have read: 8% of all infant deaths in the Netherlands are by lethal injection from a doctor now - not that doctros euthanize 8% of all infants (I mis-interpreted the statement I read. Sorry. But I am glad it's not happening, because it just seemed like an alarming statistic!) Anyway, here is a *very interesting article* (I thought anway) I found that I thought you (and whoever else might be interested) might find interesting - http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=3494 If you read it, I recommend skippinng down to the middle and starting w/the stats in the Remmelink Report - that part has some relevant and interesting statistics re: How Euthanasia is carried out in the Netherlands in actual practice, vs. the theory and also vs. the actual laws that are in place. The rest of it is pretty long, but some of it is really interesting. For instance: Of the 8,100 people "euthanized" by the Dutch in 1990, via morhpine drip, 61% of them died "without request or consent" (in other words, it was not their decision). Also worth noting in particular (to me) was that 11% of all medical decision-making in the Netherlands by doctors now revolves around the decision to end lives. *Also worth noting is that since this Remmelink Report* was a study organized by the Dutch government, the figures are probably higher (one independent study found that 41% of Dutch doctors under-reported euthanizing patients.) Hope whoever else reads it (or parts of it) finds it interesting, and informative... -Susan Hi Susan, Based on your link and others, they're blatantly moving away from what they're trying to achieve i.e. doctors making life and death decisions is no longer self-determination (which is one of the pillars underpinning euthanasia theory). It's almost a utopian ideal which is not suited to the realities of life. In theory, it's great - the right to control your own destiny (I'm no believer in a non-specific deity so I can see the logic in this principle), but in practice a significant minority of euthanasia cases are the result of decisions made by third parties. The chances of euthanasia being introduced in Britain are slim to none, for various reasons. One being we operate a half-way house of public healthcare and privatisation (typical British compromise position). In extreme cases, the killing of a family member could be bought with the right amount of money. Could you ever see euthanasia in place in the US?

RosaB -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/25/2007 8:31:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: denika In my work in the health care industry I have come across a few humane Doctors who would not so much euthinise terminally ill patients but in the end stages they would make it easier with higher doses of pain meds that slow down respiratory rates. Both my parents died horrible lingering deaths of cancer and with both they were lucky enough in the end for their treating Dr. to have mercy and help them on the way. denika denika, During my time working in the health field, that was my experience as well. I was at the bedside of a few soles that were lucky enough to not have long lingering painful endings. I saw them live their good days with gusto and sat with them as I watched them pass on, (this was when nothing more could be done,) for the most part and via help with the morphine drip to eliviate much of their pain, in as peaceful and dignafied state as could be afforded to them towards the end. DNR was in place of course. Rosa -------------------------------- PS, I've also had the unforunate experience of being present when families are bickering and fighting when a patient that has a DNR in their charts and others won't respect it. In those instances I had personally known the patient, watched over the patient, myself knowing what the patient wanted, saw how the patients wishes were disrespected. Sometimes its understandable, as the remaining spouse, loved ones, just can't let go, but to keep the patient here in a constant state of pain and suffering, you have to be less selfish at times. And I've seen the opposite as well, when family members are dividing the valubles way before the patients ready to throw in the towel. So even sometimes having those little pieces of paper in place mean nothing. It can most certainly be very complicated.

HerEmeraldEyes -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/25/2007 9:35:02 AM)
Ok, I have to admit that I jumped to the end to make a response with out reading most of the 3 pages all ready here. This is a VERY serious topic that I have been debating since I was a young child. Please, be patient with me if I touch something that has all ready been said. I am going to share something very personal with you all. Hopefully I can touch a different side of this topic. My mother has a condition called sarcoidosis. Wikepedia says "Sarcoidosis (also called sarcoid or Besnier-Boeck disease) is an immune system disorder characterised by non-necrotising granulomas (small inflammatory nodules). Virtually any organ can be affected; however, granulomas most often appear in the lungs (D 86.0) or the lymph nodes (D 86.1). Symptoms can occasionally appear suddenly but usually appear gradually. When viewing X-rays of the lungs, sarcoidosis can have the appearance of tuberculosis or lymphoma." Let me give you the english definition of that medical mumbo jumbo - a description of what I grew up with. My mom was always sick. She spent more time in hospitals than at home when I was a child. Sarcoid is an autoimmune disease. It hyperactivates the immune system. (Think the reverse of aids) It is also a lymphatic disease. It causes the white blood cells eventually to attack EVERYTHING as if it is a virus or foreign enemy. Her immunes system attacks her own blood, her organs, and any medications she might take to help her. My mom was diagnosed when I was about 7. I am now 30. This disease is a Bas***d. Because of it she has sustained 11 other different diseases including Fibromyalgia, and 4 forms of arthritus including rheumotoid, now they think she may have lupus (another pain causing autoimmune disease). The origional disease started in her lungs. It now is in her heart, her muscles, tendons. Her immune system attacks her own internal organs, the 18 different daily medicines she takes for the excruciating pain must be changed every few months or her body becomes allergic to it. She has lived off and on prednazone for 12 years now. Here's my point. My mother lives every day in excruciating pain. She was on morphine patches a few months ago but stopped using them because they dont even take the edge off. Pain meds like vicodin and darvecet and percocet are like candy for her - they do nothing! Yet she managed to raise 2 children, and be a nurse for 35 years. (sorry If I sound like I'm touting her - I promise I"m getting to the point here) My mother has talked about dying for about 10 years now. Suicide. She wants the pain to end. My dad gave me power of attorney so I can sign no code papers when the disease hits the last stage. This is a real issue in my family. I have been asked many times to sit suicide watch when the pain puts my mom into another depression cycle. I have always refused. If she asked me I would help her. I would hand her the pills, the water, or put the bullets into the gun for her. That in the end won't be necessary. When she is ready, my mom is an RN with 35 years experience. With the kind of drugs in her prescription closet I guarentee she knows exactly what overdose of what meds to take at night, kiss my dad goodnight and fall asleep next to him, and not wake up. If she did, I would never blame her. I've seen what that kind of pain can do to a person. We humanely put our animals to sleep when their quality of life is non-existant. But when people like my mom and others like her are tired of pain that is so severe that there is no relief (or the only relief is to be so drugged up as to be in a drooling coma) the politicians (backed by the religious right) scream illegal/immoral. For people like my mom death is a release - it is a joy.I remember the only time my mom's face relaxed, that she wasn't in pain. I ws 21 and she was put into a medical coma for serious surgery. She looked . . . joyfully peaceful. Forgive any typos. You would think after 23 years of this I wouldn't cry anymore. Death is a part of life. The only sure thing in life is birth and death. Both should be honorable, and welcome. Death should be a choice, especially when life isn't bearable. I love my mom. But if she asked me to help end the pain. I would. In a heart beat. Thank you so much OP for bringing a question like this to light. Its not an easy one. I will feel nothing but gratitude and relief when my mom passes on. For her. For myself, I will have lost the strongest and bravest woman I have ever known. I will cry. But I will also rejoice. Thank you all for your patience while I gave a rather lengthy answer to this question. Blessed Be, Miss Emerald.

SusanofO -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/25/2007 10:05:38 AM)
NorthernGent (and whoever else is reading this) - Well, we have physician-assisted suicide allowable in the U.S. in the state of Oregon now. There are some objections to that, and there is a federal Supreme Court case re: whether it is able to continue, that will be heard sometimes early next year. I should be looking for articles on how that seems to working (I will try to find some, although am not sure much is avialable, since it's been legal there for such a short time.) It hasn't been allowed legally in other U.S. states yet, but it is probably practiced (my guess) privately, or just not reported, more often than many people think. HerEmeraldEyes: Good post (so sorry about your mom, I know that was-is probably horrible to have to watch. She sounds like a very brave woman). I don't have a probelm with the original idea of euthanasia most people seem to have: That a person with no hope of recovery in horrible pain be offerred a morphine drip or some other medical way to end it all, etc. - if it is their own choice. general comments for anyone: I do (obviously) have a problem with what has evolved in the Netherlands, for the reasons I stated. I am not convinced that is just how this kind of law would tend to evolve in other places, either, in practice, once it's been passed, but it scares me this trend in the Netherlands exists. These decisions are currently very often, (as regards infants, or adults, sometimes) in the hands of doctors on a committee there - the parents don't have the final say at all, which strikes me as just plain wrong. It's creepy (IMO). I know these medical committees supposedly have more medical knowledge, the patient' best interests at heart, etc. but it just creeps me out. It just strikes me as sort of cold and heartless, not to mention it negates the whole idea of self-determination the original law was meant to protect (which I find ironic). It's not their life, it is the patient's life - bottom line. And I do think that situations where the person isn't asked, and it's involuntary are just bound to happen, if we pass the law here in other places, IMO. I think perhaps once it's been legitimized legally, it is simply easier to attempt that kind of thing (and maybe to succeed). And for some reason, passing these laws seems to expand the "range" of "euthanizable people" over a rather short (relatively speaking) period of time (a couple of decades), aside from seeming to make it easier for people bound to do it without the patient's consent to just do that, IMO. **I mean, this country cannot even manage to get dead-beat dads to pay child support - what makes us think we can monitor physician's who have the right to end lives this way? Or monitor the application of non-physician-asssited suicide (like exists in Switzerland)? I am not sure people here really see the connection between the possible profitability for insurance companies and this practice - and am sure they'd much rather believe no company would ever be able to get away with that kind of behavior, when people are contemplating this practice in reality here in the U.S. I do think it could happen, and become more widespread - but I think if Euthanasia laws are passed here, they will be have a very slow evolution. Here, I see it as an emotional, hot-button topic like abortion is, and I predict it will bring a lot of opponents out of the wood-work, if it's on the table for real as far as laws being passed to allow it. There are too many religious groups opposed to it (and some of them have lots of money to toss around at politicians). I think if it is allowed it will be in just a few states, like Oregon, California and maybe Massachusetts, or something. Those particular states tend to be liberal, overall. - Susan

denika -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/25/2007 3:38:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RosaB During my time working in the health field, that was my experience as well. I was at the bedside of a few soles that were lucky enough to not have long lingering painful endings. I saw them live their good days with gusto and sat with them as I watched them pass on, (this was when nothing more could be done,) for the most part and via help with the morphine drip to eliviate much of their pain, in as peaceful and dignafied state as could be afforded to them towards the end. DNR was in place of course. Rosa -------------------------------- PS, I've also had the unforunate experience of being present when families are bickering and fighting when a patient that has a DNR in their charts and others won't respect it. In those instances I had personally known the patient, watched over the patient, myself knowing what the patient wanted, saw how the patients wishes were disrespected. Sometimes its understandable, as the remaining spouse, loved ones, just can't let go, but to keep the patient here in a constant state of pain and suffering, you have to be less selfish at times. And I've seen the opposite as well, when family members are dividing the valubles way before the patients ready to throw in the towel. So even sometimes having those little pieces of paper in place mean nothing. It can most certainly be very complicated. I've been in those same situations with patients, some family memebers you just want to grab and give them a good shake. DNR's are hard to hold up when a distraught person is screaming in your face and begging you to do something anything, because they are not ready to let the person go, it's always ugly. As sad a moment as it is, there is something of honor in being able to sit and share that final moment with someone, stranger or family alike. It is such an intimate moment and one no one should have to face alone. I had one lovely elderly lady ask if I could help her put on her lipstick, she said she wanted to look nice when she saw her husband again. It was all I could do not to burst into tears infront of this elegant stranger. denika

Sinergy -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/25/2007 8:32:48 PM)
You have our profound sympathies and support, HerEmeraldEyes. Sinergy and strumpet.

RosaB -> RE: I might of asked this question before but anyway should euthanasia be legalised? (2/25/2007 10:22:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy You have our profound sympathies and support, HerEmeraldEyes. Sinergy and strumpet. I second the sentiment. Emerald I sort of, (not entirely, you've been dealing with this for way longer than I can fathom,) understand what you are going through, My sister gave me Power of Attorney during her long illness. The many emergency room runs the many close calls were emotionally draining. Its very difficult to witness up close the suffering of someone that we love so deeply.......You are a phenomenal women [:)] This whole topic is weighing heavily on my mind at the moment, more so, because, I checked my personal email account and found that I received an mail from a former submissive of mine, telling me that his son is being moved to a hospice facility following a long hospital stay. My heart is breaking for my friend. It's so ironic that this friend had sent the message about his son just a day prior to the start of this thread. Such is life. Rosa

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