Punishment vs Play (Full Version)

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EmeraldSlave2 -> Punishment vs Play (3/18/2005 1:05:22 PM)

I hear a lot of people using the word "punishment" in the same terms as their normal scenes and play. I also hear lots of subs talking about how they do things such as one sees in "The Secretary" where she specifically and willfully disobeys in order to get "punished."

For me punishment is used in training as a negative consequence, it is to be avoided at all costs and is never confused with "play." Also, the desire to get negative attention to me signals an insecurity in the relationship and very passive aggressive attempts on the part of the slave to manipulate the dom.

I also think perhaps new doms or doms who aren't comfortable with their sadism enjoy using the term "punishment" for play because they can then have an excuse for why they are beating on their slave.

What are others views?



SweetDommes -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/18/2005 1:14:39 PM)

We are quite clear with anyone that we converse with (and always have been) that while some things that some people might consider to be punishement (spanking, for example) are things that we enjoy, we do not enjoy punishing anyone. In addition, we are also quite clear that any time we are disobeyed, there will be punishment, tailored to the boy and the infraction, that the boy will NOT enjoy - and if they disobey intentionally to be punished, then they will be dismissed. We don't want someone who seeks out that kind of attention when we don't enjoy it.



cynthiamarie -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/18/2005 2:27:33 PM)

quote:

For me punishment is used in training as a negative consequence, it is to be avoided at all costs and is never confused with "play." Also, the desire to get negative attention to me signals an insecurity in the relationship and very passive aggressive attempts on the part of the slave to manipulate the dom.

I also think perhaps new doms or doms who aren't comfortable with their sadism enjoy using the term "punishment" for play because they can then have an excuse for why they are beating on their slave.


Wow. i'm learning so much by reading these message boards, thank Y/you.

Personally, i would never want somebody to hurt me in anger...i have trust issues; if a Dominant cannot control their own anger then it's very scary. Spanking or whatever as a form of play, or even as a reward...mmmmm, that sounds intriguing :).

The worst punishment someone could inflict on me would be emotional...having to look at Him and see the disappointment or anger on His face...or being told to get out of His sight because He can't bear to look at me...or being told that i have killed some of the love He had for me and that He thinks less of me now...that pain would be of a longer duration and more unbearable than just a beating.

Maybe some of Y/you will think that i don't know what i'm talking about because i've never been in a relationship yet that wasn't vanilla, but...my father ruled our home with an iron fist and i know all about beatings, being tied up for hours, being forced to stand in one position and not allowed to move at all or shift my weight from one foot to another...and lots of other punishments too. He hurt my body...but...because he never loved me, the punishments never touched my soul. i think if you own/control someone's heart and soul, their mind and body will try very hard to be obedient.

i don't understand why anyone would want to make their Dom/me angry...they are risking everything...just because they are not willing to respectfully ask their Dom/me for what they need.



Tristan -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/18/2005 3:20:03 PM)

I think that for many or maybe even most in the lifestyle, the idea of punishment is very exciting and becomes their play. There is nothing wrong with this except that there might be some confusion when its time for a real punishment - something that is unpleasant and not part of play.



nella -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/18/2005 5:34:18 PM)

To use informing somone you love them less as punishment are emotional terror, not a punishment.

But mostly i agree whit this tread. If you are into pain, discuss this whit your Dom, punishments are corections, not play time.



MidnightWriter -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/19/2005 5:51:28 AM)

I know people who are into the scene, who use the "punishment/bratsub" thing, and enjoy the hell out of it. Of the two that come to mind first, they're both damned nice people, he's an entertainer, she's a computer professional who has done me many favors. It's not my kink, but they love living this dynamic.

It's not the way that I play, nor is it the way I'd like to play - but it's their way, and there's very little purpose in objecting to it. I will agree with the OP, though, in noting that this is better suited to session players than to 24/8\7 folks.



nella -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/19/2005 6:57:40 AM)

Yes i agree, if pepole like it then that is their thing and let them do it.



Masterandslave -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/19/2005 6:58:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2

...........For me punishment is used in training as a negative consequence, it is to be avoided at all costs and is never confused with "play."


My view is the same as yours.

quote:

I also think perhaps new doms or doms who aren't comfortable with their sadism enjoy using the term "punishment" for play because they can then have an excuse for why they are beating on their slave.



I suspect that the same may be true for (some) subs who seek "punishment". The context makes it more acceptable to be beaten.



CitizenCane -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/19/2005 8:29:44 AM)

Some people learn from punishment and some don't. It's good to have a pretty clear idea of what kind of person you're dealing with before you punish. Some people can distinguish between 'correction' (adding a little pain to help someone remember something important) and 'punishment' (using pain or other extremely negative consequences either to a) deter repetition of an unwanted act or b) attempt to change an internal characteristic by giving it very bad associations. The last pretty much never works. I don't have much confidence in a) either, as a general rule- but it works for some people.

Citizen Cane



sanita -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/19/2005 9:18:32 AM)

good thread.

personally, i do not like to deserve punishment. i will take it, but it is the fact that i have failed or let Master down, that tears me up.

of course, i have had what i call "worm in the letter moments." i do not to it to get a beating, i do it to get attention, or out of frustration, and a brief shortage of reason. i am not so much a masochist (though, the last time i was punished, the Man broke a dowel on my bottom three times, and when He went in with the belt, i came... (and yes, that was permitted)), so provoking Him to punish me is not anything i would do intentionally.

when i act up, or mouth off (which is more often the nature of my infraction), i am usually playing to Master's sense of humor. if i can make Him laugh, it is ok. since i HATE being truly bad, there is almost no deliberate misbehaviour. if i am feeling uppity and rebellious, Master usually moderates it pretty well. either letting me be a bit sassy if He is in the mood, or warning me that it is not the time.

either way, to me, punishment is not a goal. it is not something i want, not because of the mechanics of the punishment, but because of the crime. i will take punishment, and get through it, and learn from it. but to me, if i screw up, i will want to talk about it, and make sure it doesn't happen again. there are too many ways to make mistakes to have to keep making the same one over and over again.

as for attention... a "worm in the letter moment," to me, is one where a sub is trying, just trying to get the Dom/mes attention. anything, a rise, a stern look, an eyebrow...

i mean, come on, what does it do to you, as a sub, when your One shoots you that look, with the arched eyebrow, and "Ooooh, you're gonna get it!" almost-smile? me? it snaps my back to straight, makes my nipples and other nubs throb, and it is all i can do to keep my head from falling back and offering my throat wherever we are. even at mom's dinner table.

sometimes, if Master is feeling bad from illness or exhaustion, and i need to give Him a "goose" per sey, i make a challenging comment. that usually revvs Him up a bit. that might be seeking negative attention, but it is actually going for any sort of attention, kind of like snapping Master back into focus, when He needs to pull a few more hours of lucidity out of nowhere. sometimes negative attention is better than no attention at all. but i do agree that seeking negative attention, rather than striving for the positive could be a cause for consternation.

then again, there are some that are masochistic, but not so much sub, that are not in it to please, they are in it for the punishment. and there are Sadists that thrive on that, not so much the Dominance. as far as i am concerened, if it is SSC, even if it is not for me, it is not necessarily wrong.

to E/each T/their O/own.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/19/2005 10:01:20 AM)

quote:

For me punishment is used in training as a negative consequence, it is to be avoided at all costs and is never confused with "play." Also, the desire to get negative attention to me signals an insecurity in the relationship and very passive aggressive attempts on the part of the slave to manipulate the dom.


agree 100%.

quote:

I also hear lots of subs talking about how they do things such as one sees in "The Secretary" where she specifically and willfully disobeys in order to get "punished."


specific and willfull disobedience in this household is grounds for release--this was discussed and agreed upon before accepting His collar.

quote:

though, the last time i was punished, the Man broke a dowel on my bottom three times, and when He went in with the belt, i came... (and yes, that was permitted))


as a masochist, punishment for this slave rarely comes in the form of pain. if it does, the context of it is such that this slave is in such an emotional state of grief from disappointing Master and deserving punishment, that dowel does not arouse. this slave would not be allowed to cum from a punishment and sees that "type" of pain to be as sexually stimulating as a migraine.

We don't "play" punisher/punished.



SweetDommes -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/19/2005 10:41:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

specific and willfull disobedience in this household is grounds for release--this was discussed and agreed upon before accepting His collar.


We don't "play" punisher/punished.


It is the same in our household.

Now, if the boy wants to be spanked or flogged or whatever, he is welcome to beg for it as a reward for something - and we encourage that. But to disobey to get the punishement ... not tollerated here.



sanita -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/19/2005 10:50:34 AM)

quote:

quote:

though, the last time i was punished, the Man broke a dowel on my bottom three times, and when He went in with the belt, i came... (and yes, that was permitted))


as a masochist, punishment for this slave rarely comes in the form of pain. if it does, the context of it is such that this slave is in such an emotional state of grief from disappointing Master and deserving punishment, that dowel does not arouse. this slave would not be allowed to cum from a punishment and sees that "type" of pain to be as sexually stimulating as a migraine.


in the situation i described, the orgasm shocked me. i understand what you mean about the emotional state. the physical discipline which my Master inflicts is a deterrent from any potential future infractions of a similar nature. The emotional... letting Master down, hurting Master in any way, pushing buttons when i loathe game-playing... well, those feelings are the punishment that keeps me from intentionally being bad in the first place.

anyway, i wasn't "play"ing, nor was He. it sure wasn't the pain that gave me the orgasm, i am not exactly sure what it was, except that it was towards the end, and He had just taken pictures and then i saw His eyes. i'll have to think about that. i only said it, because it still kind of suprises me that that happened, and i was just spouting a bit. sorry.

orgasm control is play for my Master. this was not. He has told me before that i can cry out, or cry, or writhe (within reason), so long as i take what i am given. i guess that it was another sort of reaction.

i've also orgasmed while being assaulted by a stranger, after i could not fight him off anymore, and shut down. lemme tell you, a migraine would have been better.

as i said before, respect is what matters, and consent, and to E/each T/their O/own.



krikket -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/19/2005 1:44:24 PM)

For myself, it took me a long time to figure out how i defined discipline and punishment. After lots of reading, talking with others i respected and trusted, and then listening to my heart, i came up with

discipline: used mainly for teaching or re-enforcing a desired behavior, physical reaction or position, sharpening of focus, etc.

punishment: something that happens when i've been bad on purpose. i don't have to worry overly much about this one since pleasing my Master, keeping his life on an even keel, and NOT disappointing him are what's important to me. That's not to say i don't mess up, cuz i do, but it's never deliberate, to get attention, or attitude (well, rarely..lol).

play or scenes: anything else, from spankings, flogging, bondage, etc.

The above is somewhat over simplified, simply because little in this world is ever that cut or dried, but it's where my mind starts from...

The punishment i have had over the years was usually when my attitude (mouth) got in the way. i used to think i was the only kid on the block who was punished for saying "yes, M'am" to my mother. Once i became a mother myself, and then later an active submissive, i learned why that was...lol.

cheers
jiminie



GentleLady -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/19/2005 7:33:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

We are quite clear with anyone that we converse with (and always have been) that while some things that some people might consider to be punishement (spanking, for example) are things that we enjoy, we do not enjoy punishing anyone. In addition, we are also quite clear that any time we are disobeyed, there will be punishment, tailored to the boy and the infraction, that the boy will NOT enjoy - and if they disobey intentionally to be punished, then they will be dismissed. We don't want someone who seeks out that kind of attention when we don't enjoy it.


My thoughts exactly. I have raised My family and am not looking to repeat the experience with a submissive....which is the way I end up feeling when they disobey to get punishment. It feels like a small child begging for attention...just My feelings though and not saying any thing is wrong with doing it other ways.

I LIKE giving pain so if they truly want pain then the fastest way to get it is to make Me happy...not make Me angry. I warn potential submissives that I do not punish and I think I have punished only once. It was necessary because the infraction was public and the punishment was immediate and suited to that submissive.

If the submissive is disobedient he will be corrected and told that the behaviour is unacceptable. If it is repeated or continues then he is dismissed. When I am training a new submissive or getting to know one I use disapproval as "punishment". If that is not enough to have them at least trying to correct the behaviour then something basic is not working in the relationship. I am not sure I am putting this clearly. If the submissive provides the service that I tell him I require then eventually he gets rewarded (usually with pain or heavy play). If the services provided are not what I need then I tell them and give them time to make corrections because it is a learning process. If they are not willing to make the corrections then they are dismissed. This works for Me but applies to Me only.

Gentle Lady



GentleLady -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/19/2005 7:42:59 PM)

sanita

I really like your definition of "worm in the letter moment"....Mine gets an immediate hardon when that happens but I do not consider it being disobedient when he behaves like that. But then I think it happens most often when he knows I am holding back on My own nature (which happens for various reasons) and I think he uses the comments to remind Me or encourage Me to be Myself no matter where we are.

Gentle Lady

quote:

mean, come on, what does it do to you, as a sub, when your One shoots you that look, with the arched eyebrow, and "Ooooh, you're gonna get it!" almost-smile? me? it snaps my back to straight, makes my nipples and other nubs throb, and it is all i can do to keep my head from falling back and offering my throat wherever we are. even at mom's dinner table.




EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/20/2005 12:46:46 AM)

Personally, if I ever tried using my cuteness or (god forbid) a bratty attitude in order to get his attention, it would be seen to that it would be the LAST thing I saw of him for a very very long time.

There's a keen difference between being funny and being manipulative. Sure I love the tug of the leash and the flash of the eyes, but the Owner does NOT like me thinking or acting upon any ideas that *I* can manipulate him to bring it out.

Do not pass go.



SweetDommes -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/20/2005 1:13:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GentleLady

[snip]
I LIKE giving pain so if they truly want pain then the fastest way to get it is to make Me happy...not make Me angry.
[snip]
If they are not willing to make the corrections then they are dismissed. This works for Me but applies to Me only.

Gentle Lady[/font][/color]



Works for us as well - although we don't enjoy giving a lot of pain ... the spanking/flogging and some CBT is about as far as we go (yes, we are wusses ... and we like it that way [8D]) - but if the boy wants something, no matter what it is, the best (well, really only) way to get it is to make us happy and then beg for it as his reward. Our first boy has gotten pretty good at it. [:D]



Dev10usM1nd -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/22/2005 6:29:37 PM)

Punishment by definition should be negative consequences for an undesired action. I am of the opinion that if a punishment can be enjoyed by the dom at the same time it is teaching the slave a lesson it is particularly ideal. I also think that every punishment should be tailor-made to fit both the crime and the slave that perpetrated it. You simply can't expect to punish a pain slut with pain, thats just common sense.

-Ray-



liltxsubby -> RE: Punishment vs Play (3/22/2005 7:17:04 PM)

For me, pain does not always equal with punishment. Fangs is a sadist, he enjoys inflicting pain and I submit to recieving it. I still consider myself a wimp but we're working on that.

Punishment is something to be avoided, and it's always painful, even if it's not physically painful. Being sent into another room to contemplate my actions is just as bad (if not worse) than being switched.

Do I try to act up to be punished? NO, I try to make his life as pleasant and easy as possible. He said once that having to punish his pet hurts him as much as it does me. I think knowing that keeps me in line more than just the actual thought of being punished.



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