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Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/23/2007 1:02:02 AM   
JLION


Posts: 25
Joined: 2/21/2007
Status: offline 		I had this thought a while ago. What if I have a special slave collar that has bells on it. My female slave will only be allowed orgasm or sexual relief when she is wearing her "fuck bells". So in whatever way she is receiving her pleasure, she will hear the constant jingling of her special collar. If I do this for a few months or so, and consistently only let her have orgasm while she wears her bells what will happen? I will make sure the collar is no where in site when it is not being used. If you are a slave how would this affect you? Would you be conditioned to be aroused whenever you hear bells? Will you experience very much arousal during Christmas shopping season from all of the Salvatian Army Santas?  Will it be hard to reach orgasm WITHOUT hearing the jingling sound after a long period of this type of conditioning? Any predictions on how this would work out? I'm new to interacting with people in the BDSM scene, and I have never read about this technique before, but I'm sure it's been used by some of the doms and dommes out there also though I imagine that it takes a lot of persistence. I'm sure most people who would attempt this technique for a couple of days then eventually become bored  I appreciate any input. 
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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/23/2007 1:23:54 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I have a similar but different occurance, actually, although not with bells.  But the reaction comes only when he initiates the stimulus and not every time I hear it.  For me it's intent which triggers my reactions, but it could be different for others.

(in reply to JLION)
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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/23/2007 2:11:25 AM   
aSlavesLife


Posts: 347
Joined: 12/1/2006
Status: offline 		I've never used bells, but have made use of Pavlovian style conditioning for a variety of uses. And if reinforced for long enough periods of time, it can make orgasm without the association trigger very difficult.

It does take persistance to reinforce it, but very simple examples of it can be accomplished in less than 8 hours. Their effects are almost never permanent, but can have spectacular impact on the person you do it to which helps build a mindset for future conditioning as they are already aware of how potent a tool it is.

I wouldn't suggest using bells, as too many things sound similar that could trigger the programmed response. Specific keywords, touches, or even tastes are more useful , unless you want her gushing every Christmas or when Hells Bells plays on the radio.

_____________________________

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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/23/2007 3:22:24 AM   
goodpet


Posts: 458
Joined: 6/8/2005
Status: offline 		This post will get me a lot of flames and ‘you’re so wrong’ comments. but i have a shield and love to roast marshmallows anyways....

Coming from a mental health background and working in behavior modification professionally for over 13 years, orgasm triggering from an external stimuli is possible, but EXTREMELY DIFFICULT and takes many months of focused training. 

Too many online and real life Doms think if they just say, do, or give a touch every time the girl cums they will learn the connection and be cum trained in a matter of weeks.  This is referred to as a "cold start". to go from nothing, ground zero to the desired outcome from only one stimuli. Extremely difficult and time consuming to achieve.

Can it be done? yes.
Is it likely that many lay persons have the time and focus to do the training correctly, no.

What happens is the sub sees the desire on the Dom part and begins to comply, often to the point of faking it. (oh my gawd i just suggested some of the cold start cumming is faked.. where is my shield?)  but in my personal (non-professional) opinion is the Dom is setting the sub to have to fake or help it along, so much pressure is put on the girl to learn it, and the Doms love to brag about it and show off their trained girls..

What can happen is… (this is not from professional work mind you but from knowledge of behavior modification modified to the kink-sex world) think of sexual excitement as a scale of 0 to 10.   0 being nothing and 10 is cumming.  (scale is for girls, men don’t have a zero on their scale –just kidding *grin*)

From 1-5 it is a progression in arousal and getting excited from nothing to interest to a desire. At this point it is mostly mental with some physical arousal signs beginning around 3 or 4.

From 5 to 9 it is a progression in excitement of mental still but also all physical also. You know the changes, each person is bit different but follows the same basic patterns. By the time you are at 7 or 8 you are close and of course the desire is usually overwhelming and consuming at this point. At the 9 it is considered the “edge” and only needs a bump (or grind) to take you to the 10 and sweet release.

The use of stimuli can help move you up the scale. It can be enough to get you over the edge if you are at an 8 or 9. Some are quite orgasmic and the right stimulus can move them up several numbers.  For some they might jump one number up, other might jump 2 or 3 numbers easily. And a few might even jump 4 or 5.   more then 5 or 6 and we are talking months of concentrated training.
So what ever your jump number is (is that like a sleep number?) if you are at a zero it would get you all hot and bothered and you would see physical changes. If you were at a 5 already thinking of sex and wet it might put you on the edge.. if you were at a 6 it might take you over. 

Bumping up 1,2 number is possible and common. Bumping up 3 to 5 numbers is possible for some. But bumping up 9 or 10 numbers from a ‘cold start’ is highly unlikely. 

So either the girl is running around always at a 5 level of excitement or she might be helping it along

So from a modified professional point of view, train away. Make the connection to your voice and the act of cumming. Don’t demand her response, don’t pressure her to perform. Let the connection be developed naturally.  Don’t expect her to do cold starts. That just sets her up. Do start from when she is at a 9 and give both physical and verbal stimulus. Them move down to the 8  then work towards less physical and just verbal, but if nothing happens add the physical and go back. It is a long progression and just keep working down. It is two steps forwards one step backwards.

Note: if you don’t use the command as the word “Cum” then she is less likely to feel the need to produce. Try a personal word instead when she cums and then to excite her and move her up.

(in reply to aSlavesLife)
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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/23/2007 3:39:20 AM   
aSlavesLife


Posts: 347
Joined: 12/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: goodpet

This post will get me a lot of flames and ‘you’re so wrong’ comments. but i have a shield and love to roast marshmallows anyways....




You aren't about to get an objection from me on this one. It does take a long time, and it takes even longer to make it work ( almost ) consistently. Forced orgasms will speed up the process, but can have the undesired effect of causing her to only orgasm under forced conditions.

I normally first use conditioning to create a state of continuous arousal, which I think you placed at 5 on the scale. From there I work slowly on the orgasm itself, beginning with about a 2 minute window to accomplish it, then decrease the time as training progresses. I call it the ground up approach, where first you provide the foundation for the events desired as an end result.

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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/23/2007 4:00:44 AM   
SirDiscipliner69


Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JLION

I had this thought a while ago. What if I have a special slave collar that has bells on it. My female slave will only be allowed orgasm or sexual relief when she is wearing her "fuck bells". So in whatever way she is receiving her pleasure, she will hear the constant jingling of her special collar. If I do this for a few months or so, and consistently only let her have orgasm while she wears her bells what will happen? I will make sure the collar is no where in site when it is not being used. If you are a slave how would this affect you? Would you be conditioned to be aroused whenever you hear bells? Will you experience very much arousal during Christmas shopping season from all of the Salvatian Army Santas?  Will it be hard to reach orgasm WITHOUT hearing the jingling sound after a long period of this type of conditioning? Any predictions on how this would work out? I'm new to interacting with people in the BDSM scene, and I have never read about this technique before, but I'm sure it's been used by some of the doms and dommes out there also though I imagine that it takes a lot of persistence. I'm sure most people who would attempt this technique for a couple of days then eventually become bored  I appreciate any input. 


Been doing this for years with a variation.

It is very accomplishable and other methods and derivations too.

Sorry for the quick post but headed out the door.

Hope to see more on this.

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

(in reply to JLION)
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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/23/2007 4:26:28 AM   
Elorin


Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline 		I am living proof that orgasm training is possible, though not to the sound of bells. We started simply with when I was close to cumming, being told to wait until given permission. Hold it off a minute, or two. Then I would get the command before I was quite ready - very aroused but not quite going over the top. Alternated those two methods for a while until I consistently orgasmed every time he said, then was given the command when I was less ready. After probably 6 months or so I discovered that I could not orgasm on my own anymore, but had conditioned myself/been conditioned to need his command.

I don't know how long it was after starting training that I was given my first "cold start". When I first started training, it was all so exciting that I ~was~ perpetually aroused. I do know that now I can be told to cum (whispered in my ear) and end up having an orgasm, startling and rather unsatisfying as orgasms had that way may be. Sir wondered if I was faking it and we used a kegel trainer (lights and sound show how strongly the vagina is contracting) to prove to his satisfaction that I was actually orgasming, or at least the muscles were contracting.

I ~have~ found that if I am in a lot of pain, or if I am depressed/concentrating on something else, I can't orgasm, and Sir has always understood.

Bells would be a bad idea as I love to wear slave bells and my charm bracelet has a slave bell on it as a symbol of that part of my nature.

~Ms. E

(in reply to aSlavesLife)
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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/23/2007 7:22:16 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		http://www.collarchat.com/m_588912/mpage_2/key_orgasm%252Ccontrol/tm.htm#592158
orgasm on command?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_412753/mpage_1/key_cum%252Ccommand/tm.htm#412758
cum control

http://www.collarchat.com/m_313958/mpage_4/key_orgasm%252Ccommand/tm.htm#318568
cum on command 

http://www.collarchat.com/m_400934/mpage_1/key_cum%252Ccommand/tm.htm#400996
orgasm on demand


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to JLION)
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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/23/2007 12:55:31 PM   
scottjk


Posts: 335
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		Ahh, LuckyAlbatross, I KNEW you had some links to offer. :)

I've known a couple of girls that could orgasm on demand, however, they were easy to arouse and touch off. It was fun. :)
I agree about cold starts, though. Can't have a running engine without turning the key first. :)


(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/26/2007 9:20:33 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JLION

I had this thought a while ago. What if I have a special slave collar that has bells on it. My female slave will only be allowed orgasm or sexual relief when she is wearing her "fuck bells". So in whatever way she is receiving her pleasure, she will hear the constant jingling of her special collar. If I do this for a few months or so, and consistently only let her have orgasm while she wears her bells what will happen?

First, what you are describing is operant conditioning, not respondent (classical) conditioning.  What might happen is that you might succeed in establishing the "fuck bells" as an antecedent to orgasm.  What makes this operant conditioning rather than classical (respondent) is that the behavior (orgasm) comes under the exclusive control of the antecedent stimulus (the "fuck bells").  She does not orgasm because she hears the bells (which would be respondent conditioning), but rather the behavior (orgasm) only occurs under the control of a specific antecedent stimulus (hearing the bells) which then results in the reinforcer (the euphoria of the orgasm).

Now I have a question, have you considered the possible consequences of this?  While such conditioning is possible, just because you can do it doesn't mean you should.  Its important to weigh the various consequences first and make sure its a good idea.  For example, what happens if you lose the "fuck bells"?

quote:

Would you be conditioned to be aroused whenever you hear bells?

She might be arroused when hearing those specific bells, but not necessarily.  The approach you briefly described did not include a specific element to pair the sound of the bells (a neutral stimulus) with sexual stimulation (an unconditioned stimulus) to produce arrousal when she hears the bells.  So whether this would occur would be left to chance unless you modify your method to produce that specific result. 

quote:

Will you experience very much arousal during Christmas shopping season from all of the Salvatian Army Santas? 

Unlikely, again because your method did not focus on creating arrousal at the sound of any bells.  It focused on only allowing orgasm at the sound of specific bells.  To create effect of being aroused at the sound of any bells, you'd have to generalize the stimulus response beyond just those "fuck bells".  This heads back towards respondent conditioning, that of the conditioned response (arrousal) at the sound of a bell or bells.  Thus you're talking about two different forms of conditioning, though they could be combined, they are two seperate processes.

quote:

Will it be hard to reach orgasm WITHOUT hearing the jingling sound after a long period of this type of conditioning?

That's entirely possible since that was the focus of your original method, to restrict her from having orgasm except when she hears those specific bells.  You are in effect creating a "bell fetish".  Likewise, one could condition a slave to only orgasm when permission has been given, probably the most common form of orgasm control.

quote:

Any predictions on how this would work out?

For most, it wouldn't work simply because they don't understand enough about operant conditioning and behavior modification to use it effectively.  Most of the time I think that's a good thing, keeps people from implusively conditioning submissives to all kinds of nonsense and potentially harmful things.  However, for those serious about it, the information is out there if they care to put the work into learning it.  And happily, most who put the time and effort into it also end up learning a bit of wisdom about its application along the way.

Good question though.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/26/2007 9:21:34 AM   
FukinTroll


Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline 		Hmmm.... Pavlov's pussy.

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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/26/2007 9:24:24 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Heh... lets just hope that doesn't involve putting powdered "meat" into it.  LOL

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Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/26/2007 9:27:50 AM   
SleepyBeast


Posts: 122
Joined: 2/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

Hmmm.... Pavlov's pussy.


That sounds like what would happen if you had Pavlov and Freud working on the experiment together.

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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/26/2007 9:39:27 AM   
FukinTroll


Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Heh... lets just hope that doesn't involve putting powdered "meat" into it.  LOL


Depends on if the Dommes here pulverize his nether bits.

_____________________________

I'm the guy your girl is thinking about when she is fucking you!

TrollTopia
Greedy Groupie!

The Mods have me on speed Spank!! Gotta luv'em.

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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/26/2007 9:42:08 AM   
FukinTroll


Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SleepyBeast


quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

Hmmm.... Pavlov's pussy.


That sounds like what would happen if you had Pavlov and Freud working on the experiment together.


Considering Freud... I am sure it has been done.

_____________________________

I'm the guy your girl is thinking about when she is fucking you!

TrollTopia
Greedy Groupie!

The Mods have me on speed Spank!! Gotta luv'em.

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RE: Classical conditioning with bells and orgasm - 2/26/2007 12:12:46 PM   
pattiann


Posts: 48
Joined: 7/2/2006
Status: offline 		What about us poor subs that have trouble reaching orgasm?  I think a dom would have to be a saint to be that patient.
I would love to be able to cum on command.  Sometimes I get to the point when I ask to cum but Master makes me wait.  The moment passes and then I just can't get there again.
Maybe I need a DR and not a shrink?

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