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RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/24/2007 9:40:34 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

This is a very complex OP. I am going to freely answer in my own way without quoting questions.

I think I approach BDSM forums much differently than I used to. I am less judgmental of how people do things. I think I used to compare how I wanted things with how other people wanted things, and I could get defensive about certain things too. I am less and less this way as time goes on because it does not matter to me how other people do what they do. It only matters that we do what HE wants.

You asked if anything can change my mind.. yes, Daddy changes his course, then I change mine. I am not the one that decides the way things are, he decides how he wants them. There is a One True Way for us. It is no one else's way, but it is ours...

I have learned so much about others in reading them. It does not matter if their ethos is like mine. I respect the way they choose to live. I have no desire to denigrate what other people do as long as they consent.. and I think this is because I am secure about what we do, and I am very satisfied... I see beauty in what satisfies others too.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 21

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/24/2007 9:45:38 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

What I look for is someone who isn't full of shit, who posts what is real for them and talks about themselves in a genuine and open way, who makes themselves vulnerable because they have been open honest and genuine.

Or a topic that is important to me or one I feel I have something to add.

The people here who I enjoy reading may or not not be the ones I would enjoy dinner with. They often challenge my thinking, they do things differently, that have different perspectives.

Presentation and style matter to only in that I require enough of it to get the message across, other than that, I would rather respond to an honest simpleton, than someone who is more concerned about their style than their substance.

This whole post was very well said, Michael. Thank you for the input.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 22

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/24/2007 9:58:13 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

This is a very complex OP. I am going to freely answer in my own way without quoting questions.

Free form always works for me! I'm grateful for whatever format you care to use. :)

quote:

I think I approach BDSM forums much differently than I used to. I am less judgmental of how people do things.I think I used to compare how I wanted things with how other people wanted things, and I could get defensive about certain things too. I am less and less this way as time goes on because it does not matter to me how other people do what they do. It only matters that we do what HE wants.

This all sounds like growth to me, one of the main reasons I started to frequent these forums after our e-group passed away after several years. (Sends a quick wave to Sweets whereever she may dwell.)

quote:

You asked if anything can change my mind.. yes, Daddy changes his course, then I change mine. I am not the one that decides the way things are, he decides how he wants them. There is a One True Way for us. It is no one else's way, but it is ours...

Do you find that you also influence the relationship as well and that Sinergy's viewpoint on certain subjects might change due to your input? I know that with Michael and myself, he has grown as much if not more than I have in the time we've been together and much of that growth has come from his ability to retain an open mind on almost any subject and to view things from different angles that he might have missed if they hadn't been pointed out to him. Of course, when I do broach a subject and offer my opinion, I do so with respect and will assume you do as well and I don't really want to go off on a tangent here, but I'm very interested in the process of growth. (I should probably start a new thread, but we'll see how much this derails the current one first.) I've always had my own way of doing things, then things became 'his' way, but I really believe, because of our growth together, it's probably more accurate to say that the synergy (no pun intended!) has brought things to an 'our' way which is 'the' way for us.

quote:

I see beauty in what satisfies others too.

That was poetic, truly. Thank you for sharing it, Julia and thank you for all your input on this topic.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 23

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/24/2007 10:01:14 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

because of our growth together, it's probably more accurate to say that the synergy (no pun intended!) has brought things to an 'our' way which is 'the' way for us.

If I get the chance again, that is exactly what I desire.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 24

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/24/2007 10:30:03 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

What causes you to stop and listen to something which may be alien to you?

<laughs> Sometimes I think people would be amused at the OMG look on my face when I read things that are truly alien to me. But those posts give me a peek at the diverse ways real people function within the dynamics of what we call BDSM. Sometimes I’m a little envious, some people make my heart hurt for them, and sometimes I simply find it extremely interesting to consider.

quote:

Are you open to hearing 'other' ways or is your own ethos pretty well set in stone?

I have some very strong opinions about certain things, but just because they are ‘set in stone’ it does not preclude my willingness to listen to another point of view. I can hear the other side but it doesn’t mean I’m going to change the way I do things.
I do try, rather unsuccessfully, to present my views as what works for me. My intent is not to say I’m right and the other person is wrong, but frequently it gets perceived that way.

quote:

Last but not least, do you feel that 'your way' is superior to other ways and if not, why do you engage in things the way you do?

No, I don’t feel my way is superior. I know that my M/s relationship would not be fulfilling for many others. I engage in it the way I do for a myriad of reasons; because we are a good fit, because we agree on the basics, because this relationship has been a growing experience where my submission is concerned.
Admittedly, we have ‘issues’. He is not interested in developing the relationship past a certain point. My choice, for the moment, is to accept that and enjoy where we are.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 25

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/24/2007 10:33:35 PM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline

quote:

Do you find that you also influence the relationship as well and that Sinergy's viewpoint on certain subjects might change due to your input? I know that with Michael and myself, he has grown as much if not more than I have in the time we've been together and much of that growth has come from his ability to retain an open mind on almost any subject and to view things from different angles that he might have missed if they hadn't been pointed out to him. Of course, when I do broach a subject and offer my opinion, I do so with respect and will assume you do as well and I don't really want to go off on a tangent here, but I'm very interested in the process of growth. (I should probably start a new thread, but we'll see how much this derails the current one first.) I've always had my own way of doing things, then things became 'his' way, but I really believe, because of our growth together, it's probably more accurate to say that the synergy (no pun intended!) has brought things to an 'our' way which is 'the' way for us.

I started to answer this and realized I cannot because these are things he can only give proper voice to... I gave him the link to this post and if he wants to answer he will. I just do not feel it is my place to put words in his mouth

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 26

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/24/2007 10:38:13 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Do you find that you also influence the relationship as well and that Sinergy's viewpoint on certain subjects might change due to your input?

Hello BitaTruble,

I am a firm adherent to systems theory. Nothing I am in contact with does not change me in some sense.

There are things which juliaoceania is extremely knowledgeable about, and I find myself blessed to be able to learn from her. There are emotional aspects to her life that open up questions in my mind about how humanity actually works out our issues. I want her to go to graduate school and teach (which seems like what she wants to do) more because I think she has something vitally important to say, as opposed to thinking that I necessarily agree with it.

I have always seen myself as a catalyst. I dont care if I ever get credit or am even noticed. My satisfaction is found in being the catalyst, not in being recognized as such by other people.

From what she has said there are things she learns from me, so I suppose it all works out in the end.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 27

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/24/2007 10:49:14 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

<laughs> Sometimes I think people would be amused at the OMG look on my face when I read things that are truly alien to me.

We need to get you on webcam to see you while you read! ::laughs::

quote:

I have some very strong opinions about certain things, but just because they are ‘set in stone’ it does not preclude my willingness to listen to another point of view. I can hear the other side but it doesn’t mean I’m going to change the way I do things.
I do try, rather unsuccessfully, to present my views as what works for me. My intent is not to say I’m right and the other person is wrong, but frequently it gets perceived that way.

I admire the fact that you retain an open mind and are willing to entertain ideas outside of your own. Perception is a funny thing and I know that I, sometimes, don't quite 'get' what's being asked or offered, so tend to ask a question before offering forth advice, opinions etc to make sure that I'm on the same page with what a poster is wanting to present.

quote:

No, I don’t feel my way is superior. I know that my M/s relationship would not be fulfilling for many others. I engage in it the way I do for a myriad of reasons; because we are a good fit, because we agree on the basics, because this relationship has been a growing experience where my submission is concerned.
Admittedly, we have ‘issues’. He is not interested in developing the relationship past a certain point. My choice, for the moment, is to accept that and enjoy where we are.

Thank you for sharing, Catize. I do enjoy reading your posts and appreciate your input. I hope that your relationship proceeds in a way as to maximize the potential for growth for you both.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to catize)

Post #: 28

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/24/2007 10:52:02 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Hello BitaTruble,

I am a firm adherent to systems theory. Nothing I am in contact with does not change me in some sense.

There are things which juliaoceania is extremely knowledgeable about, and I find myself blessed to be able to learn from her. There are emotional aspects to her life that open up questions in my mind about how humanity actually works out our issues. I want her to go to graduate school and teach (which seems like what she wants to do) more because I think she has something vitally important to say, as opposed to thinking that I necessarily agree with it.

I have always seen myself as a catalyst. I dont care if I ever get credit or am even noticed. My satisfaction is found in being the catalyst, not in being recognized as such by other people.

From what she has said there are things she learns from me, so I suppose it all works out in the end.

Sinergy

Thank you so much for responding to my questions, Sinergy (and Julia for sending him the link). This post answered them very well.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 29

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/24/2007 11:01:31 PM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

In some ways I don't have "a way". I'm still new enough to this that I don't have a lot of experience in this particular culture. (And I do see this as a culture that has a wide diversity of sub-cultures.) I'm not in a D/s or M/s primary relationship so I don't have that to draw on for information so I come here to read and learn.

There are some posters that I read because I find them hilariously funny in what they write, even though that is not their intent. Others I read and wonder whatever got into their heads. Others, like you, Bita, I read because I've learned to respect their wisdom, even if I don't always agree with their conclusions. Knowing I don't have a lot of experience to draw on keeps me from dismissing a lot of things out-of-hand because I know I don't *know*.

Not sure if this answers what you were asking though.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 30

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/24/2007 11:13:35 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sublizzie

In some ways I don't have "a way". I'm still new enough to this that I don't have a lot of experience in this particular culture. (And I do see this as a culture that has a wide diversity of sub-cultures.) I'm not in a D/s or M/s primary relationship so I don't have that to draw on for information so I come here to read and learn.

In some ways I do envy you, Lizzie. There are days where I'd give up every experience I've ever had just to be able to start all over again with a fresh, unbiased perspective and once again have the chance to get that trepidation/exhileration feeling of doing something for the first time.

quote:

There are some posters that I read because I find them hilariously funny in what they write, even though that is not their intent. Others I read and wonder whatever got into their heads. Others, like you, Bita, I read because I've learned to respect their wisdom, even if I don't always agree with their conclusions. Knowing I don't have a lot of experience to draw on keeps me from dismissing a lot of things out-of-hand because I know I don't *know*.

Another poster with an open mind! I love it! Thank you for the compliment as well. That was nice of you to write.

quote:

Not sure if this answers what you were asking though.

It was very honest and answers my OP perfectly well. Thank you, Lizzie for adding your thoughts to the thread. I appreciate them. :)

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 31

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/24/2007 11:33:10 PM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

I will open-mindedly read any post, and as far as being ethno-centric in my views, even if I was a more "judgmental type" (which I am not, particularly), I still consider myself such a Newbie (1 year of real-life experience, although I've read a whole lot of books and articles and posts here) that I consider myself very open and interested in a wide array of bdsm topics. Some personally, and others out of sheer curiosity, whether I can ever picture myself doing them, or not. But in any case, I don't feel qualified to tell anyone else how to do much, as far as practicing bdsm, if I was that type of person (and in most instances in life, I am not) .

As far as real-time experience, I again don't feel experienced enough to judge anyoneelse or how they do what they do. I know there are "taboos" that make sense to me (No touching! at play parties, etc) - beyond that, I say live and let live - but I don't have a lot of experience, and if I did I might change my mind, I am not sure).

But I do tend to read more about topics I am interested in. For instance, I had never ever read a post on the "Ask A Mistess" forum until a few weeks ago (and have been a member for about 2 years) - because I'm not a Mistress (but it can be a good forum, IMO). I've perused all of the other forums, and every section, at least once, if not many times over (ads, intros - everything).

As far as what threads I read, I used to hop around lot on these message baords, and I stilll do, as far as what I read - to some degree seems to depend on my mood, but if it is a topic I have a keen interest in, or one that has caught my attention in more than a superficial way, I will post a comment, and then keep going back to comment and see how that thread is progressing - that's just my style (and also if I have time).

Then I will just post on a couple of fun threads, too (what are you doing right this minute? or a poll in random stupidity section, or something like that), to balance the serious-ness of a topic (or how I might be responding to one), sometimes, with some frivolity.

I will read just about any post, and won't write off a poster who mis-spells or has terrible grammar, etc. - especially if they seem like they really need some help with something or seem really sincere.

But I always appreciate an intelligent poster who appears to have really thought something through, obviously is speaking from experience (I have good intuition as far as possibly intuiting if they do, or not, plus, I've been here awhile) and has taken some care as far as how concisely yet thoroughly (or eloquently and yet with some impact) made their point. A sense of humor never hurts, either.

And, if a topic close to my heart, maybe especially if they agree with my opinion, (if I have one - which a lot of the time I don't), I may seem at a moment to appreciate that pster more than some others, perhaps.

But, if someone is really persuasive and-or humorous plus smart, or just very informative and clear in what they try to convey, I've had my opinion changed on topics I'd not made up my mind about, or about which I thought I needed more information, or was just curious about.

Also, if I read the same types of comments from what I consdier intelligent and experienced types over and over, it has more than once expanded my viewpoint or changed my opinion (oddly, on a few occasions, it's had the opposite effect as well - maybe I am just an anarchist at heart, he).

But as far as being ethno-centric in any views I hold re:How people "should" maybe practice bdsm- most of the time, I feel I can have my opinion and of course everyone else can have theirs - unless they are really trying to personally influence me and my life and how I live it, I don't care what anyone else wants to do, it's their business. Unless of course, I think for some reason it's really actually got a clear propensity to harm somebody else. Then I might toss in a comment like: Sure you wanna do that? etc. But these are very rare instances.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/24/2007 11:51:03 PM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 32

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/25/2007 12:48:18 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

I appreciate the input, Susan (btw: I've always liked your writing). It seems as though that those with a bit less experience tend towards being less judgemental (or perhaps it's just less jaded) and, generally are open to hearing the views and thoughts of others. It's something for me to ponder in any event, so thank both you and Lizzie for providing food for thought. :) I think the older I get and the longer I'm involved in BDSM, the less likely I am to be open minded enough to change a way of doing something, basically, because what I've been doing for so long with Himself works so well for us. I can't deny, however, that there have been, literally, hundreds of posts which have brought up very interesting discussions between Michael and I, so I'm very grateful for those if nothing else.

Celeste

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 2/25/2007 1:45:35 AM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to SusanofO)

Post #: 33

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/25/2007 1:08:28 AM

MadameMarque

Posts: 1128
Joined: 3/19/2005
Status: offline

When I first entered this thread, I thought it was to do with issues of race. "Ethnocentric" means centered around race (ethnicity) or, alternatively, belief in the superiority of one's ethnicity.

Regarding your topic, if there was only one understanding you could impart to someone newly exploring their psycho-sexual feelings and urges, the biggest favour you could do them would be to empower them to be immune to "one true way"-ism.

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them,
I have others."
- Groucho Marx

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 34

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/25/2007 1:23:26 AM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameMarque

When I first entered this thread, I thought it was to do with issues of race. "Ethnocentric" means centered around race (ethnicity) or, alternatively, belief in the superiority of one's ethnicity.

My apologies for being unclear, MadameMarque. I was using the alternative definition of ethnocentric according to Websters Universal Encyclopedic Dictionary: "characterized by or based on the attiude that one's own group is superior" (IE BDSM vs Vanilla, Gor vs Female Supremacy) and ethnic: "of or relating to large groups of people classed according to common racial, national, tribal, religious, linguistic or cultural origin or background.

I felt that BDSM, as a large umbrella group did fit under the word, and hoped the context in which I used it would be understood by reading the OP, but certainly I would not be adverse to using an alternate terminology if you know of one which fits.

quote:

Regarding your topic, if there was only one understanding you could impart to someone newly exploring their psycho-sexual feelings and urges, the biggest favour you could do them would be to empower them to be immune to "one true way"-ism.

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them,
I have others."
- Groucho Marx

That is certainly a valid opinion and I do thank you for the response. The only way I know of accomplishing such would be to lead by example and to encourage open-minded attitudes, but would be gratified if you would care to expand on the thought and make further suggestions on how to empower someone just begining to explore BDSM and/or M/s.

Thank you again for contributing to the thread. :)

Celeste

< Message edited by BitaTruble -- 2/25/2007 1:28:07 AM >

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to MadameMarque)

Post #: 35

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/25/2007 1:44:42 AM

SusanofO

Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline

I've always liked you're writing a lot, too, Bita (thanks for the compliment)!
- Susan

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 36

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/25/2007 5:06:00 AM

agirl

Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline

This is interesting and made me stop and ponder. I like questions that make me ask myself questions.

The way something is presented does have an impact on my attention but I also know that I can *see past* presentation and get to the point of interest.

If I have a regard for someone's opinions, thoughts and ideas, it's usually built over time, so there's less *weeding* to be done.....in terms of wondering where they're *coming from*.

I like it when I have understood someone's *style* of presenting because I can concentrate on the content. That can take a little time, in my case.

I suppose that by dint of the fact that I'm bothering to say how *things are* for me, I'm possibly trying to convert. Otherwise, I'm not sure. I actively don't like to give advice.

I don't think the way I do things is superior, per se, I think they are the best, at this moment in time, for me. I can only be an expert on myself and even that is shaky ground. Many times I have thought that an idea of mine is *set in stone* only to find, in the future, that is isn't.
History has shown me that my thinking has changed and I accept that it is likely to again and again.

There's a sense of security in being *sure* and maybe keeping my mind open challenges that......I both like it and dislike it for that reason. If I close my mind to other perspectives, how can I be *sure*?

agirl

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 37

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/25/2007 5:09:59 AM

Celeste43

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

I don't have to respect the poster to read it with an open mind but I do have to not have disrespect for them. Someone who has shown themselves in other posts not worthy of my respect I will discount.

And yes readability counts. Doesn't have to be perfect but the ideas have to be well thought out. I'm not wasting my time separating one tiny kernel of thought out of a barn full of chaff.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 38

RE: Ethnocentricity - 2/25/2007 10:29:48 AM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameMarque

When I first entered this thread, I thought it was to do with issues of race. "Ethnocentric" means centered around race (ethnicity) or, alternatively, belief in the superiority of one's ethnicity.

Regarding your topic, if there was only one understanding you could impart to someone newly exploring their psycho-sexual feelings and urges, the biggest favour you could do them would be to empower them to be immune to "one true way"-ism.

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them,
I have others."
- Groucho Marx

Hello

An ethnic group is defined by dictionary.com as...

eth·nic

/ˈɛθ

nɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[eth-nik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective

1.
pertaining to or characteristic of a people, esp. a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like.

2.
referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups.

3.
being a member of an ethnic group, esp. of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco.

4.
of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group.

5.
belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.

6.
Obsolete. pagan; heathen. –noun

7.
a member of an ethnic group.
What I took away from the original post was the danger of individuals who splinter themselves off from other groups with an inherent sense that they are superior than other groups or cultures. You are absolutely correct, MadameMarque, an immunity from trying to build up one's own group at the expense of other's is a laudable goal.

I read a book once which talked about drowned fishermen pulled from the water. Some had marks from the boots worn by other fishermen on their shoulders and face. It is a classic example of people trying to save themselves at the expense of others. I read about this when I was a child, and may be one of the things which left me with a deep belief that we all get out of here together. Accordingly, finding conflict with other people and other beliefs is counterproductive to our survival as a species.

Sinergy

edited because one Sinergy is enough.

< Message edited by Sinergy -- 2/25/2007 10:32:07 AM >

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to MadameMarque)

Post #: 39

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