We are What We Say We Are? (Full Version)

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SlyStone -> We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 10:52:38 AM)


I think The idea of being owned or a slave is clearly a self identification and self perception, since no one can really be owned or a slave in todays society, at least here in the United States. The law does not permit it.

And yet a person can still feel that way inside, and to them it doesn't really matter in the end if it is real or illusion or delusion, it's how they feel. And really if you don't care what others think than it is irrelevant how they perceive you.

But I find in life that even those who say they don't care in fact generally do care. Just in reading peoples postings here, one can tell people want/need to be understood and perhaps accepted on some level. After all it is a basic human need.

But just because you identify as something, does not mean that others should or will accept that to be true, even people within your own community or those who share similar values.

So much of the arguing here, and in life in general, is from those needing for others to understand how they feel and how and why they identify themselves in a given way, and others inability or unwillingness to do so.


So my questions are:

If you identify as a slave or as owned, do you have a right, or is it realistic, to expect others to accept your self perceived identity as reality?

In general why is it so important for us to be understood by people we don't even know?



Wildfleurs -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 11:00:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

If you identify as a slave or as owned, do you have a right, or is it realistic, to expect others to accept your self perceived identity as reality?

In general why is it so important for us to be understood by people we don't even know?



I don't think (regardless of what I were to identify as) that I have a right to expect others to accept my self-percieved identity.  And depending on the audience/people I don't even think its realistic to expect acceptance.  At the end of the day I think you have to feel comfortable and confident enough in who you are that peoples acceptance (or lack of acceptance) doesn't really matter.  But I don't think it comes automatically, I think its a function of time and evolvolution of confidence.

C~



juliaoceania -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 11:04:28 AM)

quote:

If you identify as a slave or as owned, do you have a right, or is it realistic, to expect others to accept your self perceived identity as reality?

 
People identify me as owned on here and I do not correct them because I would have a hard time describing my status... so obviously it is ok that people perceive me anyway they like if I have no desire to set the record straight every time they call my Daddy my master or they refer to me as owned... I am in the in between stage, not quite owned, but in many ways feel like I am. Ownership for some can take a lot longer than others and we have not even been dating a year quite yet. We are monogamous and exclusive... but the BDSM labels just do not quite fit and I am ok with that.

quote:

In general why is it so important for us to be understood by people we don't even know?


 
I do not think it is important for me, but I do have an issue with people being insulting to others based upon how they identify themselves, whether it is my label or not. I also notice that many make their label "better than" other labels. Like slaves are all lazy shiftless brainless doormats and submissives are independent smart classy people.. or the opposite, submissives are not as deep as slaves. It is one thing to be proud of a label and to want to identify with it, and another thing to denigrate others based upon a label. I kind of think that others that seek to denigrate are the folks that have an issue with self acceptance.

I think that labels have trouble encapsulating the essence of of a relationship, which is why a label is incomplete. We have literally 1000s of words to convey meaning to others at our disposal, and relying on one word to convey all meaning in the form of a label is incredibly myopic, limiting, and basically meaningless to me in the long run



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 11:08:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone
If you identify as a slave or as owned, do you have a right, or is it realistic, to expect others to accept your self perceived identity as reality?

No, but they should accept my identification for myself and keep their thoughts to themselves unless we're on very close terms socially.
quote:


In general why is it so important for us to be understood by people we don't even know?

There are levels of understanding.  If no one understood the words coming out of my mouth, I'd feel pretty lonely and upset.  But that doesn't mean they need to understand EVERYTHING to the level that I do. 

As a practical person, they need to understand on the level that allows us to work together well.



onestandingstill -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 11:13:10 AM)

I think weather someone else thinks I'm one name or another has no bearing on who I think I am.
If I've considered their position and found my own statements to be true for me, to me then that's still the label I choose to wear.
I could care less if people identify me as bottom, sub, vanilla or slave as I'm the one who has to live with my life and desires not them.
They are entitled to their own opinion and reality as much as I'm entitled to mine.
The general consensus of people in public groups is going to be out there.
Believeing others, and getting riled up over the words they identify you under just causes you distraction from the important things in life if you continue to let it bug you.
Now on the other hand if I'm deluding myself into believeing I'm something I'm not, often the general consensus will ring in my head & make me take a good hard objective look at myself.
I can admit if I'm wrong and readjust my language to match the truth that's een lovingly or meanly pointed out to me.

Sometimes you know yourself better and then the names others identify you under, and sometimes the people on the outside looking in can show you the identitiy you thought was yours was not.
It's a balancing act and in the end words have no weight as actions and deeds make it real or not real, not words.
suzanne



ownedgirlie -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 11:21:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

If you identify as a slave or as owned, do you have a right, or is it realistic, to expect others to accept your self perceived identity as reality?


No, I don't have any right to expect others to except my reality.  Everyone looks at the world through their own point of view.  In "The Four Agreements" (Don Miguel Ruiz) we learn that we all have our "story" and can only view the world and form opinions based on our "story" (our reality as we know it - our history, our mindsets, our present, our beliefs, etc.).  I can not possibly expect anyone to share my belief system.  I can put myself out there and explain what I am, but what people do with it is up to them.

quote:


In general why is it so important for us to be understood by people we don't even know?

It isn't.  However, I am more likely to respect someone who asks questions in an effort to know and understand me better (assuming they have an interest - they might not!) over someone who takes a few written sentences and characterizes me based on their "story" which may have nothing to do with mine.  There have been more than a few people who didn't understand my view of my slavery at all, until they got to know me, and then later stated they understood quite clearly, even it wasn't something they agreed with for themselves.  But how far a person wishes to venture into understanding me is up to them.  Personally I think we'd all be a lot better off if we tried understanding each other better, but that is not always a reality.



juliaoceania -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 11:24:50 AM)

quote:

It isn't.  However, I am more likely to respect someone who asks questions in an effort to know and understand me better (assuming they have an interest - they might not!) over someone who takes a few written sentences and characterizes me based on their "story" which may have nothing to do with mine.  There have been more than a few people who didn't understand my view of my slavery at all, until they got to know me, and then later stated they understood quite clearly, even it wasn't something they agreed with for themselves.  But how far a person wishes to venture into understanding me is up to them.  Personally I think we'd all be a lot better off if we tried understanding each other better, but that is not always a reality.


Great points, and I have learned a great deal from you and from others about slavery and how you experience it... It makes me a more well rounded person every time I stretch my own understandings based upon my own life and try to understand someone else's. It makes life more interesting too.



CreativeDominant -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 11:25:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


I think The idea of being owned or a slave is clearly a self identification and self perception, since no one can really be owned or a slave in todays society, at least here in the United States. The law does not permit it.

And yet a person can still feel that way inside, and to them it doesn't really matter in the end if it is real or illusion or delusion, it's how they feel. And really if you don't care what others think than it is irrelevant how they perceive you.

But I find in life that even those who say they don't care in fact generally do care. Just in reading peoples postings here, one can tell people want/need to be understood and perhaps accepted on some level. After all it is a basic human need.

But just because you identify as something, does not mean that others should or will accept that to be true, even people within your own community or those who share similar values.

So much of the arguing here, and in life in general, is from those needing for others to understand how they feel and how and why they identify themselves in a given way, and others inability or unwillingness to do so.


So my questions are:

If you identify as a slave or as owned, do you have a right, or is it realistic, to expect others to accept your self perceived identity as reality?

In general why is it so important for us to be understood by people we don't even know?



I am not a slave or a submissive but I still think I can answer the first question, at least relevant to having a right in terms of expecting others to accept your self-perceived identity as reality.  In MOO, I have no right to expect others to see me in the way I perceive myself.  I might see myself as tall and darkly handsome but if that is not the reality, then my stating it is not going to make it so.  The same holds true for what we perceive ourselves as in terms of our nature/character/behavior.  I might think of myself as a smart businessman who knows when to take advantage of the opportunities presented...others might see me as a ruthless, heartless S.O.B..  I have no right to insist that they see me as the way I describe myself.  I can try to point out to them why I think my view is correct but if they are in complete disagreement with my view, that is their right, whether or not they are right.  Of course, that leads us into the second question.

While it cannot be demanded that others see us in the same way we see ourselves, in order for us to deal with each other and relate to each other, we have to at least come to some sort of understanding of each other and that understanding has to encompass...at least partially...an acceptance of what the other person says about themselves.

There was a thread on here yesterday from a submissive new to BDSM who feels like she only wants to submit within the bedroom.  A dominant approaching her may think to himself "here is a bedroom submissive...sexual only".  He has applied a label, based on her statement, that helps him to an understanding of what she is...at least an initial understanding.  Now, he may hold contempt for her level of submission or he may be in love with her level of submission but he has come to an initial understanding of where she is coming from and they can at least begin relating to each other.



SimplyMichael -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 11:30:44 AM)

There is a vast difference between saying:

  • I identify as a daddy dom and I enjoy being nurturing while being strict.
  • Daddy doms are nurturing and strict
  • Daddy doms are the most nurturing and strict

The first is my opinion of myself, the second doesn't slam others but makes a grandiose claim, the third lays claim to all virtue.

What many of us object to is those who want labels so they can "be" the second or third style.  I don't know "you" and so when you claim you are "x" I have no idea if you are full of shit or not and I could care less how much you write or how well you write it.

I have seen owners of multiple slaves who are the biggest submissives around, I have seen bottoms be the most beautiful of slaves, I have seen submissives who are the most dominant, and I have seen novice dominants be vastly better than leaders of groups.

Those who are most worried about labels rarely deserve the ones they choose for themselves...



SimplyMichael -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 11:35:03 AM)

I look at ANY woman, regardless of labels as a potential partner.  That isn't the same as saying I will hit on them or treat a Domme as a submissive.  It simply means labels are empty in many ways.  Perhaps that "bedroom submissive" hasn't met a man like me, or she did and that is why she is now "only" a bedroom submissive but may meet another dominant who turns her into a slave.

Look at biological sex, certainly a "hard" solid label and yet, people can be straight, bi, gay, tv, pre-op, post-op, and even forced bi...if biological sex doesn't make a label hard and fast, what the hell does?



daddysprop247 -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 11:39:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


I think The idea of being owned or a slave is clearly a self identification and self perception, since no one can really be owned or a slave in todays society, at least here in the United States. The law does not permit it.

And yet a person can still feel that way inside, and to them it doesn't really matter in the end if it is real or illusion or delusion, it's how they feel. And really if you don't care what others think than it is irrelevant how they perceive you.

But I find in life that even those who say they don't care in fact generally do care. Just in reading peoples postings here, one can tell people want/need to be understood and perhaps accepted on some level. After all it is a basic human need.

But just because you identify as something, does not mean that others should or will accept that to be true, even people within your own community or those who share similar values.

So much of the arguing here, and in life in general, is from those needing for others to understand how they feel and how and why they identify themselves in a given way, and others inability or unwillingness to do so.


So my questions are:

If you identify as a slave or as owned, do you have a right, or is it realistic, to expect others to accept your self perceived identity as reality?

In general why is it so important for us to be understood by people we don't even know?



to answer your first question, no, no one has the "right" to be accepted by others in any way shape or form. however as others have already explained far more eloquently than i ever could, in order for productive communication and interaction to exist, there needs to be at the very least a desire/willingness to understand one another, or else why bother posting on a message board?

just in the things you have expressed above, you make it crystal clear that you do not seek to understand those with beliefs differing from your own, and at the same time you show blatant disrespect and contempt for those who identify by a certain label, namely slave. it is not a "fact" that no one can be a slave in the western world or in any other society. it is a fact that slavery is illegal, however this is something that prohibits slavery, rather than renders it nonexistent.

with that aside, the fact that you do not truly believe i am a slave may not effect me in any tangible way...after all you are a total stranger, who i'm not likely to ever have to see or interact with in any way outside of this message board. however i'll be honest and say that it still "bothers" me to some extent, because i find such judgements confusing, offensive, and hurtful. disagreeing, even disagreeing passionately and wholeheartedly, is one thing, but to judge an entire group of people as invalid based on your own personal opinions is something else altogether. i've never been bothered by those who simply disagree with my beliefs or ways...as a matter of fact i value learning and gaining new perspectives from such people. but i am bothered by those who insult or offend me, or those like me, personally and universally. as to why, i suppose i'm just a sensitive soul.



valeca -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 11:42:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


If you identify as a slave or as owned, do you have a right, or is it realistic, to expect others to accept your self perceived identity as reality?




As my reality, possibly--at least enough to understand that I see it as such, even if they don't agree with it.  As their reality, no.  My reality doesn't apply to them.

Edit: I went with realistic...rights are a whole other ball of wax for me.



bearincuffs -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 11:45:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone


So my questions are:

If you identify as a slave or as owned, do you have a right, or is it realistic, to expect others to accept your self perceived identity as reality?

In general why is it so important for us to be understood by people we don't even know?



I think to a certain extent, we do care about how others think about us. Mainly to get that confirmation that our thoughts, opinions, etc are valid and we are worth being treated as a person.
 
As someone who identifies as being owned, as well as a few other self identifying labels, it's more important to be accepted more as a separate and unique person who happens to be someone's slave. I want the entire me to be accepted as a whole. The fact that I am also submissive, a slave, a male, a gay person, these are all just a part of who I am as a human. All of these pieces together create who I am as a real person.
 
Maybe this is important to be understood by people who we don't know is because maybe we want to have a better sense of where we fit or belong in this life. I think much has to do with we are social creatures who instinctively need a sense of belonging even among people whom we don't know and haven't met.



onestandingstill -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 12:39:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bearincuffs

Maybe this is important to be understood by people who we don't know is because maybe we want to have a better sense of where we fit or belong in this life. I think much has to do with we are social creatures who instinctively need a sense of belonging even among people whom we don't know and haven't met.

Wow bear,
What a simply fantastic statement!!!!



WhiplashSmile -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 12:45:24 PM)

The thing with labels, is that we can place them on ourselves.  A means of self identification to where we fit in.  However, what that label means to other people may be something else.




RWAble -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 12:52:29 PM)

I think what we label ourselves is only revelant to us and the people that may own us. Everybody else really doesn't matter.
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile

The thing with labels, is that we can place them on ourselves.  A means of self identification to where we fit in.  However, what that label means to other people may be something else.





Devilslilsister -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 12:54:50 PM)

quote:

If you identify as a slave or as owned, do you have a right, or is it realistic, to expect others to accept your self perceived identity as reality?

In general why is it so important for us to be understood by people we don't even know?


i dont identify as a slave.  i, identify as myself.  As for owned, its all symantics. Its a label given to me, that i am to accept, which i do.  i do have my "own" identity, which is outside the two mentioned.  Do i expect others to accept it?  Ah no. i understand that people will make a reality out of whatever they percieve you as.  i generally choose to let them do so.  i even at times help them along to percieve me a certian way.  I've been percieved as everything under the sun and i find it pretty amusing. 

its not important for "me" to be understood by the general public, except by a few certian ppl.  As i said, others confusion about me, amuses me.  i enjoy watching the judgements, blanket statements, ect.  Quite frankly, its always given me an upper hand when dealing with others.



agirl -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 12:55:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone



So my questions are:

If you identify as a slave or as owned, do you have a right, or is it realistic, to expect others to accept your self perceived identity as reality?

In general why is it so important for us to be understood by people we don't even know?



I don't think I have a right to expect that, no. Nor do I see it as realistic, in general.

I'd LIKE to be understood by people that KNOW me, never mind the ones that don't.

In general, it's not important to me that people that I don't know understand me, but if I'm taking part in this forum, for instance, my opinion and written ideas mean bugger-all if there's no understanding at all. In that way, I'd desire and aim for optimum understanding and it would *matter*. Being undertood aids communication......makes it easier.

agirl





ArgoGeorgia -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 12:59:24 PM)

Labels have always confused me, mostly because I myself don't fit any of them very well.  I guess in a general sense labels have a purpose of helping others to quickly get an idea of who you are, but only at a very superficial level.  "OK, this guy says he is a Dom.  Let's start from there."  It merely provides a context for the initial contact, kind of like clothing.  But that's exactly where the label should end.  Instead, the actions and thoughts of the person should define who that person is to those around them, even if it is different than the label they have chosen for themselves.   



MasterFireMaam -> RE: We are What We Say We Are? (2/28/2007 1:18:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

If you identify as a slave or as owned, do you have a right, or is it realistic, to expect others to accept your self perceived identity as reality?

In general why is it so important for us to be understood by people we don't even know?



In actuality, these questions have nothing to do with kink and everything to do with human nature.We wish to be accepted because it validates our feelings that we are worthy of acceptance. We wish to be loved because it validates our feelings that we are worthy of love.

When we self sabotage (which is usually an unconscious thing), it's because we are working from a place of fear that tell us that we aren't worthy. When we feel rejection, it's because we're taking it a validation that we aren't worthy. If we truly know that we are worthy, rejection isn't rejection, it's simply a statement of preference. Yeah, that's a hard one to live.

Master Fire



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