RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege?

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meatcleaver -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/7/2007 2:05:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer WOW the classism I keep seeing here is the anti wealth classism, somebody worked to get the wealth gathered and their payoff is that their family doesn't have to worry for generations who amoung us wouldn't want that same security for generations of our offspring? Luck, Fortune, Greed, etc all the class warfare favorites, Luck and fortune imply that the person didn't do anything to get where they are that their situation is based on happenstance not hard work or good decission making skills. Sorry doesn't fit the facts in the US since the majority of millionaires today are "self made" sure they don't do it all on their own but the decissions they made certainly had more to do with making it than luck or fortune. Greed I have yet to hear any deent defintion that was objective as opposed to subjective for greed. Seeking more than one needs? leaves open to interpritation who decides what we need as a subjective matter. It's far less a matter of not wanting to pay anything for someone elses healthcare in my book than it is a matter of not seeing government as the means to distribute healthcare. Adjusting policy so that it becomes more possible for folks to afford it on their own (Like deductions for home loan intyerests etc mentioned earlier fine) But I don't see the government as the solution to directly providing all our needs.) WHat next Universal food distribution certainly food is a right if healthcare is, Housing provided for all by the government if healthcare especially preventative is a Government pervue then certainly housing and food for everyone would prevent more disease than medicine would cure/ Hell lets just have the government feed us house us and raise us all to mediocrity. So you think its fine that people lose their homes because it is their bad luck they got cancer or some other long term illness that needs expensive medical care? It is fine that children from poor families are twices as likely to die as children from middleclass families? There was a report by UNICEF not long ago (it was on one of the threads) that said that social mobility in America was the worst amongst all western nations and put this down to lack of access to good education. How can people afford healthcare if they are denied chances because of lack of a decent education? As for millionaires in America, my brother lives in California and he is one. His said his father in law gave him some advice when he first got married 'Never work hard at earning a living, work hard at accumulating wealth.' To be fair, my brother didn't need the advice, he always saw accumulating wealth as a way of not working hard to earn a living. Even he admits that many rich people are blood suckers and don't contribute to society in any meaningful way, he certainly hasn't and boasts about it! However, he is something of a hypocrite because despite being able to afford healthcare in America, he still pays his British National Insurance or the equivalent of whatever self employed have to pay. He said the USA is no place to be down on your luck and if he get seriously ill he is straight back to the UK because he could lose everything he has accumulated. Talking to him, the US has a mighty fine system if luck is on your side but if it isn't and you sweat on minmal pay and make your small but meaningful contribution to society, you can go and fuck yourself. Where you start in society has a big part to play in where you end up in society. Those millionaires are the exception that prove the rule.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/7/2007 4:50:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer WOW the classism I keep seeing here is the anti wealth classism, somebody worked to get the wealth gathered and their payoff is that their family doesn't have to worry for generations who amoung us wouldn't want that same security for generations of our offspring? I have no problem with wealth why does it not apply to a nation, the USA has the resources / money to provide basic health care for the generations of all its people. Luck, Fortune, Greed, etc all the class warfare favorites, - no they are reality with the US system, if I am unlucky enough to be seriously ill in the US then instead of concentrating on getting better I hope I have the good fortune to be able to keep a house, get the insurance company to cover the treatment, that my family will help with money........parents of child with cancer...that the school will fund raise to pay for his treatment.. Luck and fortune imply that the person didn't do anything to get where they are that their situation is based on happenstance not hard work or good decission making skills. Sorry doesn't fit the facts in the US - totally fits facts of US, until comming out here I would not have believed it, now I have expereienced the reality of it and spoken to many people about it. This is because as a Brit I simply could not believe the system and how much it costs to not cover 49 million people. WHat next Universal food distribution certainly food is a right if healthcare is, Housing provided for all by the government if healthcare especially preventative is a Government pervue then certainly housing and food for everyone would prevent more disease than medicine would cure - there are levels of provition, bread and water for all seems ok to me, no one should starve...but in the US its cheap McDonalds for all thats available, serves same purpose. Would you support dead starving people in the streets of the US. A term used by some here in conversation is "this great nation" great can mean many things, big, powerfull, larger than lesser, what do Americans mean when they say this, great for all or the few.

meatcleaver -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/7/2007 7:38:32 AM)
Thinking about it, while society can do without a few more millionaires, it can't do without the masses of people on a minimum wage, they are also vital for society to function. If it wasn't the millions of individuals at the bottom of society now, it would be a different bunch of individuals. No amount of hard work and ambition will get rid of all the people at the bottom of society, the individuals would just change so why should society penalize them? How pleasant would a society be without the road sweeps, the toilet cleaners, the sewage workers, the office cleaners, the agricultural labourers and the army of other minimum earners. It is so easy to point at an individual and say its their problem, if it wasn't their problem it would be someone elses problem, the problem won't go away it would just be shifted around. Shrugging ones shoulders and saying 'tough!' is not going to make a decent society that is pleasant to be a part of, it might make for a wealthier society for some, a anxious society for others and a society of economic and social poverty for others, which appears to be the case in the US. I still say the philosophy of the individual is pedaled by the rich to keep themselves rich and the poor, poor. I really do think the founding fathers knew what they were doing when the cultivated the anti-tax propaganda and they weren't even paying any anyway! I just don't understand why everyone else bought into the nonsense. When I go to the US (mainly to San Francisco) I don't see myself as visibly poorer than anyone else and I am on course to pay 50% tax this year and I have healthcare, insurance against hitting hard times and access to first class public transport and first class services such as street cleaning etc which all makes for a pleasant society and environment. Cheap at the price if you ask me, far better than private wealth and public poverty. What I would be interested in knowing, is how do Americans square the contradiction of being a supposed Christian society and not caring about those at the bottom of society, especially when as a country, the problem of lack of health insurance is an ideological one and not a financial one.

Archer -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/7/2007 5:13:24 PM)
Again with the carrying my statements to the obsurd degree to make it look like I'm heartless Its still obvious that reasonable discussion for a conservative here is impossible due to numbers and this constant YOU JUST WANT THENM ALL DIEING IN THE STREETS. Back in a few more months to see if this crap has stopped.

thompsonx -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/7/2007 9:20:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Again with the carrying my statements to the obsurd degree to make it look like I'm heartless Its still obvious that reasonable discussion for a conservative here is impossible due to numbers and this constant YOU JUST WANT THENM ALL DIEING IN THE STREETS. Back in a few more months to see if this crap has stopped. Archer: You and Ayn Rand and her whinning about the we oppressing the I. I would challange you to show me one I who ever did a thing to make the world a better place. Every I did what they did because the we did what was necessary to make it possible. You and all of the other libritarians are nothing but a bunch of stingy fucks who think that once you have made it on the backs of the we have the right to dissassociate yourselves from the collective of humanity to enjoy the fruits that you have gained from the efforts of the group. Get a grip. thompson

farglebargle -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/7/2007 10:51:19 PM)
quote: Ayn Rand There was one chick who really needed to hookup with a good editor. You could lose 600 pages of Atlas, and not miss them at all.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/8/2007 4:58:10 PM)
Again with the carrying my statements to the obsurd degree to make it look like I'm heartless Its still obvious that reasonable discussion for a conservative here is impossible due to numbers and this constant YOU JUST WANT THENM ALL DIEING IN THE STREETS. Put forward the counter arguments to refure statements and support the conservative view. Seams to me there are quite a few who put forward wide ranges of views on topics............ Back in a few more months to see if this crap has stopped.......... open debate shuld always include this type of crap......both right and left dish it out and take it...........now whats that saying about the kitchen and heat?

Sinergy -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/8/2007 7:59:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Without any doubt, as I see it, that is the problem with a "universal" supply of anything. That difficulty needs a solution. NO? If people have a problem with paying for universal healhcare, I have a problem with paying for the roads people drive their fucking SUVs on since I don't own a car. It would be much cheaper for me if there was only bus lanes and tramlines in the town. Why the fuck should people pay for other people's luxury if they can't be arsed to contribute a little something so eveyone can have healthcare? While we are at it, why the fuck should people pay for a military to go and fight wars for corporate America? Yeah! Sinergy

thompsonx -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/8/2007 8:20:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Archer Again with the carrying my statements to the obsurd degree to make it look like I'm heartless Its still obvious that reasonable discussion for a conservative here is impossible due to numbers and this constant YOU JUST WANT THENM ALL DIEING IN THE STREETS. Back in a few more months to see if this crap has stopped. Archer: I thought you were a self described libratarian...now you seem to be saying that you are a conservative. Which is it? Why is it that it is wrong for others to take your arguements to the absurd extreem but right for you to do the same thing? thompson

seeksfemslave -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/9/2007 4:51:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Without any doubt, as I see it, that is the problem with a "universal" supply of anything. That difficulty needs a solution. NO? If people have a problem with paying for universal healhcare, I have a problem with paying for the roads people drive their fucking SUVs on since I don't own a car. It would be much cheaper for me if there was only bus lanes and tramlines in the town. Why the fuck should people pay for other people's luxury if they can't be arsed to contribute a little something so eveyone can have healthcare? While we are at it, why the fuck should people pay for a military to go and fight wars for corporate America? Yeah! Sinergy The reason I gave in my original post went missing so I will repeat it here. In the UK, since the late 50's, literally millions have been injected into a public education system. It is accepted by many that educational standards have declined. I saw quoted a maths question taken from a Hong Kong "O" level paper that was present in UK "A" levels. O=Ordinary. A=Advanced. Ditto with expendititure on the UK NHS. We now have more Bean Counters and administrators and paper shifters than ever before. Forgot all about MRSA and Stef Dificil (sp?) infectious bacteria on the increase in Hospitals...of all places. Dont worry,the NHS probably has a nice new logo or a management structure with flow charts clearly showing the high priority attached to hygiene To point out facts like those does not equate to total opposition to Universal provision of anything. There is a serious problem of waste, empire building, vested interest, indifference and incompetance and spend to maintain next years budget when the taxpayer is seen as a bottomless financial pit Witness the millions wasted on IVF and the corrective procedures required when females produce 8 embryos. Then the buffoon who organised all this said resources are limited need more money.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/9/2007 5:19:59 AM)
Seeks As someone who supports universal healthcare I do not expect it to be perfect, and whilst strongly defending the NHS I accept that it has many things that it could do better. My fundamental consideration is that 1) people should not die or be in significant pain because they are poor, when the country / society they live in (and are a part of !!) can afford to provide Universal Care 2) children should not die because there parents are poor, or incompetent. 3) if you work hard and pay into a system and then for some reason you are unlucky - redundancy, family break up, death of spouse etc, and you go into financial hardship, and then also find you or a member of you family are ill, you should have a period of time when you are supported by the system you contributed to I see it simply as an insurance scheme, but one that if you happen to miss a few payments on, you do not loose all your coverage, and one that does not immediately start looking for loop holes in the contract when you need care. I also do not like wasting money and it proivdes care in a more efficent manner than inusranc eonly schemes.

meatcleaver -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/9/2007 5:20:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Ditto with expendititure on the UK NHS. We now have more Bean Counters and administrators and paper shifters than ever before. Forgot all about MRSA and Stef Dificil (sp?) infectious bacteria on the increase in Hospitals...of all places. Dont worry,the NHS probably has a nice new logo or a management structure with flow charts clearly showing the high priority attached to hygiene Seeks, do you believe everything politicians tell you? Do you really believe Tony Blair when he says you can trust him? If you want to look at consistent investment in health services look towards Holland, France and Germany, they invest a lot more than Britain and because of that, all have superoir health services. I've said it before, Britain gets healthcare on the cheap and like anything you get on the cheap, no matter how good the staff are, they are constantly swimming against the tide. Blair has put more money into healthcare but National Health trusts don't have guaranteed money over a period of years so they can't have sustained planning which is the reason they have too many staff one year, too few the next. The other is the NHS targets which are supposed to make the Labour Party appear to have achieved its goals while in reality they just sweep problems under the carpet. British politicians always want something for nothing so they can promise tax cuts to the middleclass. Like the railways, they under invested for 30-40 years and then privatised to companies that thought painting the trains in new liveries would make them go faster and longer and with less maintenance. Now it is slowly dawning on the people in charge, there is no replacement for sustained investment over decades like the French and the Germans have done. Like the railways so the health service. MRSA. Look towards the privatisation of the cleaning services for that problem. They have a list of work to do and they robotically go through it, if they don't get to the end of the list on one day, they don't finish it off the next day but start at the beginning so part of the hospital might never get cleaned. The cleaning companies say if they don't start at the beginning each day they will break the contract and not get paid. Crazy? Damn fucking right its crazy? The contracting out of services to private companies doesn't work because they employ low paid unmotivated staff. As it is, professional staff in the NHS are underpaid compared to their European counterparts. Britain wants cheap cheap cheap and the middleclasses are happy with that until they need the health service and then they complain about it. Pay the tax and get the service you think you deserve when you need it.

thompsonx -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/9/2007 6:07:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Without any doubt, as I see it, that is the problem with a "universal" supply of anything. That difficulty needs a solution. NO? If people have a problem with paying for universal healhcare, I have a problem with paying for the roads people drive their fucking SUVs on since I don't own a car. It would be much cheaper for me if there was only bus lanes and tramlines in the town. Why the fuck should people pay for other people's luxury if they can't be arsed to contribute a little something so eveyone can have healthcare? While we are at it, why the fuck should people pay for a military to go and fight wars for corporate America? Meat, good points. Our politicians keep telling us that the U.S. has "interests" in S. Korea and that is why we've had 37,000 Troops guarding their border for 54 years now with "shoot to kill" orders. I don't have any "interests" in S. Korea. You most certainly do young man...that is where we get the majority of our tungsten and with out it our micro-techinal society would come to a screeching halt. And it's certainly not in my "interest" that my Troops are protecting private businesses "interests" and profits who have plants in S. Korea. So Taxpayers are paying to protect the profits of big business? Those businesses need to hire their own private security. And, they owe us a LOT of money! That is what General Smedley Butler, USMC,MOH said in his book "War is a Racket" thompson

Sternhand4 -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/11/2007 1:38:56 AM)
Even Labour Party MPs Can't Get Needed Health Services in Britain A former left-wing Member of the British Parliament and a long-time backer of Britain's government-run National Health Service (NHS) is rethinking her opinion of the NHS – because a decision it is making may cost the former MP her eyesight. According to the London Daily Mail, former MP Alice Mahon, 69, has wet age-related macular degeneration. The drug Lucentis can stop the vision loss, and may even reverse it, but it's expensive (12,000 British pounds for a year's treatment), and needs to be taken quickly after diagnosis. Unhappily for Mahon, at the time of her diagnosis, funding for Lucentis had yet to be approved by the government's rationing body, so the NHS denied her a prescription. Mahon appealed the decision, but appeals take time. Nine weeks after she applied for the drug, she already had lost much of the vision in one eye. Fearing blindness, she has begun paying for her own treatment, which, by the end of January 2007, had cost her over 5,300 British pounds. The Daily Mail adds: ...The former Halifax Labour MP is now taking legal action in a move that could help an estimated 18,000 Britons who go blind each year due to wet AMD, with some denied funding by cash-strapped [primary care trusts]. Mrs. Mahon said: "I have been an ardent supporter of the NHS all my life, and now feel totally let down. "The excuses that [primary care trusts] are giving for not funding treatment are scandalously lame. "Everyone has a right to free treatment on the NHS for a condition that results in blindness and devastates lives. "Supporting people who are blind or partially sighted, who may need home help and suffer injuries from falls, is far more expensive than the treatment. "The Chancellor must ensure the NHS budget is large enough to fund such a basic health care need. "I have written personally to Gordon Brown, and not as yet received a reply." Gordon Brown, a Labour Party MP, is Chancellor of the Exchequer and is widely expected to become Prime Minister of Britain sometime in 2007. (Ironically, Brown himself has been blind in one eye since the late 1960s. The eyesight in his good eye was nearly lost as well, but it was saved by an operation using what, at the time, was a new medical technique, using a new instrument.) The Daily Mail says a New England Journal of Medicine study showed "30 per cent of patients receiving monthly injections of [Lucentis] into the affected eye had a 'marked improvement' in vision. It prevented vision loss in nine out of 10 patients." _____ Labels: Government Health Care, Health Care Posted by Amy Ridenour at 12:10 AM Copyright 2003-2007 National Center for Public Policy Research[link=http://www.sitemeter.com/stats.asp?site=sm9nation][/link]

NorthernGent -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/11/2007 1:57:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Every I did what they did because the we did what was necessary to make it possible..........that once you have made it on the backs of the we have the right to dissassociate yourselves from the collective of humanity to enjoy the fruits that you have gained from the efforts of the group. thompson Absolutely spot on, Thompson.

NorthernGent -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/11/2007 2:30:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sternhand4 Even Labour Party MPs Can't Get Needed Health Services in Britain A former left-wing Member of the British Parliament and a long-time backer of Britain's government-run National Health Service (NHS) is rethinking her opinion of the NHS – because a decision it is making may cost the former MP her eyesight. Based on the article, she is not re-thinking her opinion of the merits of the NHS and universal health care. Her gripe is the lack of funding allocated by the government towards public health care. She clearly states that, in her opinion, the Chancellor has sufficient tax-payers money at his disposal to provide the treatment free of charge. Iraq and Aghanistan are costing the British tax-payer a boat-load of money (not even on the scale compared with the suffering it's causing Iraqis - to think we're paying towards peoples' misery). I'm scratching my head and wondering why we aren't using this money to create opportunity for people in Britain and kill two birds with one stone - help our own people and leave the Iraqis to construct something instead of our interference leading to destruction. We're back to square one in that some of us think we're paying for quality, universal health care and we're not getting it because the money is being used elsewhere. Britain and France have two comparable economies - we tend to vie for fourth biggest economy in the world - but their public services are far better than ours and the French work a lot less hours than we do. Something isn't adding up and I'll suggest it's because, even in this day and age, we have an establishment who are lording it over us - to a far greater extent than France and Germany. What's bizarre is that we're all so proud of ourselves because we work longer hours than the French and Germans - I mean, have you ever heard anything so ridiculous in all your life? a decent case could be put together to suggest we're owned by big business which is nothing to write home about. So, while the French and Germans are sat down with a glass of wine and having a chat with their families, we're chained to the desk at work. If the French government, with their comparable economy, can offer their people quality public services, then why can't the British and the wealthiest nation on the planet? The logical conclusion is because they're both self-absorbed nations, which could well explain their mutual love of aggression, but that's for another day.

Griswold -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/11/2007 3:50:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mikal But things like cancer, broken bones, disfigurations (ie port wine stain on the face - especially when it causes people to stare, misshaped limbs), etc. should be available to everyone. (Well, actually, these things are available to everyone, you just need to smoke more, drive faster or have shaky hands when handling muriatic acid).

seeksfemslave -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/11/2007 7:19:54 AM)
Without any knowledge of the detailed differences between the French, German and Brit Health services I can tell you a major problem with the Brit one. It's too centrist and socialistically inclined. and thus people are divorced from its true cost. Both providers and Users. When someone like you thinks he is being charitable spending other peoples money,raised by FORCE of Law, to help a third party then that is part of the illusion and con. trick. I absolutely KNEW you were a Bean Counter and said so many many posts ago lolling sardonically

cloudboy -> RE: Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? (3/11/2007 7:48:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sternhand4 Should healthcare be a right or a privilege? I'm personally hoping it will be completely unnecessary.

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