RE: Machevelli Domination (Full Version)

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BitaTruble -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/1/2007 11:57:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile


So, if one were to snag one of these no limits, use and abuse me slaves..  and Love them to death, that would be the Ultimate Sadistic punishment? LOL...


::chuckles:: Actually, yes! What happens though, is that being the object of that sort of love tends to make one a believer in unicorns. The mystical beast is not only glimpsed, but it's caught and ridden and the ride is unlike anything ever imagined for someone who didn't believe in anything at all. [8D]

Celeste



SusanofO -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 12:30:02 AM)

I realize this Q was directed at Dominants, but found it so intruiging I felt compelled to answer (please forgive me).

What does Dominance of the bdsm type inspire then?  "Merely" devotion? Love? All the time? Is it any different than a "vanilla" relationship? "Vanilla" relationships inspire devotion and love as well. Is it the "route to devotion" (or love) that is merely the different factor? Or is it the end-goal sometimes achieved via bdsm activity that is different and to be sought-after?

I'm not saying the thread isn't on point, it's just that now it has me thinking...

I realize it is a matter of taste and degree, but if bdsm relationships, er, make that bdsm activity, never inspired fear at all, wouldn't they be "vanilla?" This is a serious question, meaning no disrespect (you know how good I think your posts are,  juliaoceania. Least I hope so).

I haven't met many Masters-Doms whose sole goal is to inspire fear in the long-run, but yet, we can't say they don't use it, can we? Not really, IMO.

It might be safer to be feared rather than loved, but maybe not in "vanilla" (or bdsm relationships), all the time anyway....? I am now confused, and rambling. I should probably go to bed. [:D][:)]

- Susan



ownedgirlie -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 12:34:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Julia, I read your comment to Amayos about "...the deepest recesses which can be extracted from a submissive/slave."  But this is not something to be feared, rather sought after. 


For you it is to be sought after and I respect this, for me it is something that he inspires, and not extracts. There is a definite difference in my mind between setting out to extract certain things from someone (and i mean in a consensual way) and someone inspiring another to give forth what is there. I am not saying Amayos does not inspire, it is more of intent.

I have read many of posts in which Amayos talks about where he wants the slave to go and has a very definite idea of what he wishes to extract. I would not fear it, but neither do I seek that sort of relationship. Chocolate vanilla and strawberry. I want to feel loved for exactly who I am, not for some vision of what someone else wants me to be... and I think that different people have different ideas of what it is they want... some want to be reformed and made new... some of us do not.

I was not insulting his way of being, and by dark I do not mean his way is less, or not valid, or abusive... I definitely admire all of his posts and his openness in his methods. He does not try to hide his methods, and any slave that he would take on I am sure would know the ground rules of being his.


Understandable, although I was referring to my Master in my own post, while using your words to Amayos.  I can't possibly speak to the intimate ways another may Master his slave.

However, I will say my Master both extracts and inspires - the two are not exclusive from each other. 

As for being loved for who I am and not some vision of what he (my Master) wants me to be...I agree, Julia, and I am.  I actually love that the vision he saw me to be was exactly who I am.  He just helped me to get there. :)



Vendaval -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 1:57:35 AM)

I am going to say that both love and fear for the same person
can exist within a person.  Not always, but it does happen.
 
If a slave responds best to fear and punishment, then that is
the course to take.  If the slave responds best to love and
positive reinforcement, then that is the best methodology.

I have met people who do not believe in love or who view
it as a weakness. And I have met people who do not believe in fear
or hatred, viewing them as weaknesses.  Human psychology can
be very complicated, different people are motivated by
different energies and emotions. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
So my question for dominant sorts is this, would you rather inspire fear or love in your submissive if you really can't have both?



SusanofO -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 2:22:45 AM)

I am fully aware there are ill-intentioned, abusive, so-called Dominants out there. But I guess my (completely serious) question would be: What is anyone doing here (submissive or Dominant) if they don't appreciate the bdsm activity? Why not be in a "vanilla" relationship instead?

Because if bdsm actvity doesn't many times inspire fear (and I am speaking of anything from apprehension to flat-out dread), then what does it inspire? I guess I am objecting a little to the use of "fear" as a dirty word here. Because I thought is was sort of a "given" already, considering the context in which we are operating.

I do realize it was merely a question (and posed to Dominants, and I'm not, I am a submissive), and that the OP was maybe not insinuating, perhaps, that either is "good" or "bad" but still - the premise seems to be somehow that "fear" possibly has no place in a bdsm relationship, when (to me) it seems to be the basis for more than a little bdsm activity. Otherwise, (presumably) it's "vanilla." Isn't it?

It is still an intruiging Q, IMO, as far as polling Dominants, (I'm pretty curious about that stuff, too) but I am not placing a value-judgment on the answers (and maybe neither is the OP), due to what I just said. My premise would be that anyone who enjoys bdsm activity also (to some degree) enjoys either inducing fear, or experiencing fear, sometimes, and it's a mattter of degree.

So - are we speaking only of methods used, or end-results aspired to? Or both? Does that matter?

Is it the difference between relating to a submissive who "knows it's just a game?" and one who might not be fully convinced of that, at all times?
Because, presumably, this is all consensual activity, too.

I mean no disrespect at all (truly I don't, juliaoceania) - but mine really is a serious question and-or comment.

- Susan   



ExSteelAgain -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 2:24:30 AM)

Reading the exchange between Julia and Amayos is interesting. I understand what she means about his methods, plus the respect she has for his openness and honesty. Ditto all that.

However, of course, I’m going to come down on the love side as being more powerful, but I will go you one more. I think being a fun friend will trump fear in the long run even if it sounds milquetoast like.

I can dominate with love and friendship in a way as powerful as Troll describes. I see it as a higher form of domination when I can deliver discipline and have us both enjoying my sadism while managing to have fun, too. I suspect, all else being equal, subs want to be with someone they feel good around instead of one they fear.



SusanofO -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 2:26:48 AM)

Nice answer, Ex-Steel.
 
- Susan



nissa -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 2:48:19 AM)

~this is just a fast reply to no one in particular~
 
I really found this question extremely interesting; and the answers so far even more so. When I first read it, my thoughts were 'why would a Dominant/Master wish to inspire fear in their submissive/slave?" To me that seemed to be the exact opposite of what the ultimate goal would be ( inspiring trust, and the wanting to submit without question ). Yet, reading the answers that others have put forth, I must say that I have come away with a different look upon it. I can almost understand why some would wish to have their submissive/slave fear them. Yet, I am still at odds with the thinking of this. I have always thought that if you feared the one you were with, it could in no way inspire that person to willingly submit in every way. I am having a hard time understanding this concept. I am interested in how those who choose fear over love can accomplish such a thing. [:)]



SusanofO -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 2:59:44 AM)

Yes. Which leads (for me anyway) to the question: If you fear them at all, can you really trust them? Is it that the devotion induced by it must outweigh the fear, to inspire trust? Or aftercare? Or what? 

And if not, and you can't really trust them if you fear them, But- if bdsm activity inspires fear (which I argue it does, at least a little, or I wouldn't be here, I'd "go vanilla", regardless of not being an extremist), and all Dominants are supposed to be extra trustworthy, or else they are not "twue" Dominants...

then - are all Dominants really just "fakes?" LOL!![:D]

OMG! So much for "absolutes" then. But I do have real bad headache now, he. Time for a nap.

- Susan



iFraudius -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 3:32:34 AM)

 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Yes. Which leads (for me anyway) to the question: If you fear them, can you really trust them? And if not, and you can't really trust them if you fear them, But- if bdsm activity inspires fear (which I argue it does, at least a little, or I wouldn't be here, I'd "go vanilla"), and all Dominants are supposed to be extra trustworthy, or else they are not "twue" Dominants...

then - are all Dominants really "fakes?" LOL!![:D]

OMG! So much for "absolutes" then. But I do have real bad headache now, he. Time for a nap.

- Susan


Somehow I feel particularly qualified to answer the last question, but I'll focus on the first ones ... [;)]
 
It all depends on what you are trusting or fearing them in regard to; one might be trusted not to deceive, betray or do harm beyond reason and agreement, but also trusted to do those things which are not desired, temporally unbearable and therefore, feared. 
 
I may trust that there is good reason to fear (or be trusted to do such as well -- I almost forgot I'm a switch, lol) while not having to fear that my deeper trust will be endangered.
 
For many submissives, being able to trust that a dominant will in fact, do fearful things, is certainly needed, even though it may not be desired as to that specific act.  For many dominants the need is just as great to know they are trusted enough to do so, without damaging the foundation of the relationship (and in fact, strengthening it). 
 
While this may seem ironic, it is in fact the fear that strengthens trust, the trust that strengthens fear and one would hope, more of what would strengthen love. 



PlayfulOne -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 3:45:09 AM)

Susan,

I can tell you that within some of our activites, they do inspire fear within my little one, but it is not fear of me.  Some activites she has a fear reaction to.  When I run the blade of the knife across her throat she knows I would never cut her on the neck but she will still shake and react as if I were going to slice her throat.   She loves me dearly and knows I love her but the fear reaction is still heavily present.

That is different from me ruling over her by fear.  She does not fear me but rather the event.  I would rather she serve out of love and devotion than fear.  There are things my little one gives me because she loves and is devoted to me but there are also things she fears that I extract from her.  One of the reasons she is able to get past those fears is because of the love and trust we have with one another. 

K




DoctorDubious -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 3:58:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
 
So my question for dominant sorts is this, would you rather inspire fear or love in your submissive if you really can't have both?


Great question,
and a marvelous answer from szobras....

For me, surrender gained thru fear is not satisfying at all.

It's so cheap and common that it feels totally outside
of what I feel is the most beautiful part of this thing we do...
..... to explore intense experience and emotion....

DD....



kyraofMists -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 4:00:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

Love is much more painful than fear and until you're ready to face that sort of pain, fear is the lessor of two evils. Being used and abused seems mild by comparison.
There are also any number of people who don't believe in love so would shun any semblance of it rather than face the sort of heartache that only love, the losing of it or the lack of it, can cause. I don't know that someone who's never been in that place can understand what it can do to you.. or how hard it is to overcome.

Celeste


I agree with this; love is much more painful than fear even if you believe in love but believe that you are unworthy of love.

Knight's kyra



DoctorDubious -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 4:04:40 AM)


Best thread in months....
Julia, Amayos, BitaCeleste....and all

What wonderful thoughts and resonances
for this overworked, writing-too-late-in-the-night-,
often over-rational, bundle of contradictions I seem to be....

Thank You.

Jim




bandit25 -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 4:09:03 AM)

I think I go along with PlayfulOne.  It's the "stuff" I fear, not the one doing the stuff...LOL! 



VeryMercurial -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 4:23:57 AM)

I live this lifestyle and I dominate out of compassion and love.
This is why I do not participate in "play" relationships.
If I am not serious about you, and I have no emotional attachment, I don't
have the time to invest or care about you.



Lashra -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 4:48:52 AM)

I'd much rather be loved then feared. Fear does not always mean that you will be respected and that is what I must have from my submissive, his respect.

~Lashra



nissa -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 5:08:26 AM)

~again a fast reply~
 
Now, I can understand fearing the 'activities'; but I was under the impression that the original question was more in regards to 'fearing the person' performing the activities. Or did I misunderstand the question?



DisirUrdsFylgja -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 5:36:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

I would rather be loved. I can elate my girl so high she can touch the sky. Her emotions are the key of her devotion. I can take the lash to her or any other disciplinary action and she knows that once that suffering is past, she is purified and it is over. Through love I can wield the greatest sword, I can lay into her a wound so deep she falls to her knees in agony. It is a lasting wound that even the passage of time does not completely heal. It is exists in her mind, deep in her subconscious and every move is forever weighed against it.  Months or years later that wound may spring open and the wellspring of tears will flow again. Every kind gesture, every loving touch makes that wound more toxic. After the first moment that Rippers Razor is unleashed and cuts her down leaving her wailing on the floor, it grows and becomes more powerful.

From that moment on the more she loves and reveres me makes it that much more powerful.  The first time she is cut, the blade may not be quit so deep, yet over time with loving hands it will fester and become a lurking demon ready to drag her into a cesspool of misery and despair. The cage, corner or cross are weak and pitiful by comparison. I rule through love because the power is far greater than fear. Each moment, every passage of time that I affirm that love makes me more powerful. Eventually the fear of the vile blade of love will put her on a path in which her every step, action and thought is meticulously designed to please me. Failing me, I draw that vile blade and cut her with the most painful wound I can deliver. I take her frail face in my hand as she kneels before me and lock my eyes to hers and whisper….
I am disappointed.


This bore repeating, the words of a Master.
 
 Beautifully written my friend.
 



justplainjava -> RE: Machevelli Domination (3/2/2007 5:46:15 AM)

but love has a bad habit of screwing up a good D/s realtionship, i have found when the dom/master loves me at least or they state they do that kills the best part of our realtionship because then they start to want to protect and keep me safe and they stop playing with me at least in the ways i use to enjoy
all the excitment dies



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