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Slave? - 3/3/2007 7:17:12 AM

adaddysgirl

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my maternal grandparents were both born in the late 1890's in Sicily. Their's was an arranged marriage and as my mother puts it, my grandfather's family gave my grandmother's family a couple of goats as the exchange (haha).

Anyhoo....they came to America in 1921, while my grandmother was pregnant for my mother. my grandmother spoke no English....my grandfather did because he had first gone ahead to secure a job and had to learn at least some English to do so.

From 1921 when my mother was born til 1935, they had 7 kids (along with some miscarriages). my mother was actually 6 months old when my grandmother got pregnant again....then my aunt was 6 months old when my grandmother got pregnant once again. As i hear it, my grandfather was a real horndog.

my grandmother did not work. She didn't socialize much outside of nearby neighbors. When shopping was needed, my grandfather gave her the money and a written out list which she was to take to the store. They had no car. Because my grandfather wanted a fresh lunch daily, she walked 6 miles a day back and forth (total) to bring it to him....kids in tow, unless she could find someone to watch them or my mother got old enough to do so.

my grandmother existed for 2 reasons: one, to serve my grandfather in any way he needed and two, to procreate. She had no money....no family here....couldn't speak English. Even if she wanted to leave, where would she go with 7 kids?

i don't know if my grandmother ever loved my grandfather. i don't know if she was ever really happy with him. i don't know if she was of a natural submissive personality or was forced to be out of circumstances then. i don't even know if what she did was consensual to her or just done because that was the way it was.

But in my opinion, she truly lived the life of what i consider a slave. So i am just wondering....do others know others they feel might have been in that same type of situation? And what do you think? Slave or no?

Daddysgirl

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RE: Slave? - 3/3/2007 7:23:45 AM

velvetears

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i don't believe she was a slave - not in the sense we mean in the bdsm comunity. She was a victim of the times and her particular culture. i am sure your grandfather worked very hard to provide for those 7 kids - and maybe wanting a "fresh lunch" was just his way of having contact with her each day because he worked long and hard hours. She wasn't dragged to the alter and although she may not have initially loved him, many in pre arranged mariages grow to love each other.

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RE: Slave? - 3/3/2007 7:26:36 AM

Mercnbeth

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absolutely....so much I think we're related!!!

My grandmother on my mother's side shares almost the EXACT same history and time period all the way down to the point of origin. I don't know if grandmother's family got any goats, however, at 13, she was turned over to my grandfather with the added responsibility of her little sister. I do know, from talking with her that she did "love" my granfather, but, what choice did she have?

As my beth says that it was revealed to her..."here's your Master, love and serve him"...it isn't that complicated.

some of beth's ancestors ran away from their service contracts.......BAD slaves!!!!!

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RE: Slave? - 3/3/2007 7:38:13 AM

WhiplashSmile

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Hell this has be going on since the age of humankind! BDSM is simply a label to better indentify it now! Plus it allows people to be upfront and open and honest about it... Be it husband and wife or slave and master... still the same dynamics! Slave, Master, Sub, Wife, Husband, Lover, Sir, Mistress, Master... all labels which everybody wears for self indenitication purposes....

Actually alot of the D/s dynamics of BDSM fit right into the Vanilla world... the Nilla heads just don't want to admit to the balance of things. Everything has to always be Equal else it's incorrect and not right!!

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RE: Slave? - 3/3/2007 7:48:49 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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If she did so because it was what fulfilled her in herself, what she felt was right because of her own sense of self and had the free choice to get involved in the relationship she wanted- then yes, I could say she was a slave in the same sense that the people on this board say they are slaves.

Otherwise, no. Doing something because it's a cultural value to do so, because there is an expectation that you will do so, because you have no other realistic choices than that one is not at all what we practice here.

Not that there aren't many people in those relationships who were happy and fulfilled, I just wouldn't compare them to consensual modern slavery that we practice.

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RE: Slave? - 3/3/2007 7:56:56 AM

adaddysgirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i don't believe she was a slave - not in the sense we mean in the bdsm comunity. She was a victim of the times and her particular culture. i am sure your grandfather worked very hard to provide for those 7 kids - and maybe wanting a "fresh lunch" was just his way of having contact with her each day because he worked long and hard hours. She wasn't dragged to the alter and although she may not have initially loved him, many in pre arranged mariages grow to love each other.

Before this goes any further, i should add a few things. Overall, my grandfather was a 'prick' (or what i would have considered him then). He never, ever displayed any affection. He would refer to my grandmother (in an Italian phrase) as 'sack of potatoes'. He never called her by her name.

When we visited, we were not allowed to make noise while he watched TV or read (which were the only two things he did when he was home). Even if we played outside, he would come out and watch to make sure we weren't getting into anything we weren't supposed to (what the hell was there to get into? lol He had a yard with a couple of fruit trees).

i don't know that she was dragged to the altar but one thing for sure....if that was chosen for you by 'the family'....you did not rebel.

And maybe she did love him in some way....although because of his personality i find that hard to believe, i really wish i could have known more about that. Unfortunately, she died when i was too young to explore these things further.

DG

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RE: Slave? - 3/3/2007 8:04:05 AM

adaddysgirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

absolutely....so much I think we're related!!!

Hey paisan! lol

My grandmother on my mother's side shares almost the EXACT same history and time period all the way down to the point of origin. I don't know if grandmother's family got any goats, however, at 13, she was turned over to my grandfather with the added responsibility of her little sister. I do know, from talking with her that she did "love" my granfather, but, what choice did she have?

Right. What choice did she have? Perhaps she grew to love him....perhaps she grew to despise him. i'll never know for sure and to be honest....had i been able to ask my grandmother...she might have said she loved him....only because he was all she had and really, what else do you do?

As my beth says that it was revealed to her..."here's your Master, love and serve him"...it isn't that complicated.

some of beth's ancestors ran away from their service contracts.......BAD slaves!!!!!

Yes, bad slaves..lol. What is she, Irish? lol lol lol

DG

< Message edited by adaddysgirl -- 3/3/2007 8:05:30 AM >

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RE: Slave? - 3/3/2007 8:04:46 AM

BOUNTYHUNTER

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Down thought the centuries marriage was arranged,Goods or money was exchanged as a bride price...Total different then in a bdsm concept and yes often they were treaded as slave or brood sows and worked harder perhaps then a slave..MY background is a mix of Irish and Indian ..MY horn dog great great came here and created a blanket family and we all survived and thrived...bounty

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RE: Slave? - 3/3/2007 8:05:23 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

i don't believe she was a slave - not in the sense we mean in the bdsm comunity. She was a victim of the times and her particular culture. i am sure your grandfather worked very hard to provide for those 7 kids - and maybe wanting a "fresh lunch" was just his way of having contact with her each day because he worked long and hard hours. She wasn't dragged to the alter and although she may not have initially loved him, many in pre arranged mariages grow to love each other.

I agree.

Comparing people whose societies tell them they must behave in a certain why to what people chose freely to do even when it is against their society's wishes or laws isn't a very good comparison.

You cannot honestly know the motivations for things unless you speak to those involved and you speak with them for some time to get beyond their rout responses.

Take my mother who in no way was even remotely treated like adaddysgirl's grandmother. She didn't work after they got married because my father and her were raised with the cultural idea that he should be able to support their family. Today, in their 70s, they both regret that choice for both financial and health reasons. I think if my mother had had even a part-time job outside the house she would have been less abuse to the rest of us as she struggled to have any sense of self and worth. Her personality is such that she was not meant to be a submissive or a stay-at-home spouse full time but her culture and her society made her think she had to do that.

Could she have chosen differently, could adaddysgirl's grandmother have chosen differently? Unless we live in their cultures and their families how can we really answer that? My guess is, based on talking to some older women and men, that the idea of some choice in how to live their marriage didn't even cross their minds -- they just did as they were supposed to or as was "normal" for that time.

I'm about choice. No choice equals sad for me and doesn't equal comparison to what I do when I do Ds or SM or anything like what this websit is supposed to be about.

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RE: Slave? - 3/3/2007 8:06:39 AM

sublizzie

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It is possible that his name for her was a pet-name that only the 2 of them understood. Not saying it was, but it might have been. Could also be that their private life was more loving than anyone saw because it was private. I had no clue about my parent's sexuality until just a couple of years ago. My take on my father's behavior toward my mother during my childhood was that he was a jerk. But she was happy with him. Now he's mellowed, though not completely, and I understand their relationship better. But then, he's very dominant and she's a very strong submissive.

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RE: Slave? - 3/3/2007 9:25:38 AM

Missokyst

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Cultures were different back then, as were expectations for life.
My maternal grandmother was married off young. No goats were involved, but my grandfather did have to build a few houses.
My paternal grandmother was stolen from her family at age 12, and after a week was returned at which point he was allowed to marry her. Four kids later (in less than 4 yrs) she encouraged him to move along. Rather than live with some guy who took her against her will and who did nothing but contribute sperm, she choose to work, first as a housekeeper, then as a cook.
From there she became a great cook and a restaraunt owner.
Her children (my dad was the oldest) worked from age 8 to help support the family.
But her choices were way out of the ordinary for the time and the culture.
They were not slaves, the expectations were different and most people followed along.
My dad's mom was considered scandalous.
Kyst

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