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RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 9:16:11 AM

Devilslilsister

Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
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quote:

You are presuming my list is optional.

Not at all. What i am assuming is that you could live with out your list. If you were put on a desert island, i do not think you would keel over and die because those "needs" are not met. IMO they are wants. Albeit, important wants - that you may deem anything less is unacceptable. Yet still wants.

IMO - from reading all of your posts, i would think that you do quite well sustaining yourself. Listing those things as "needs" also states that you "need" to be in a relationship, which would make it impossible for you to sustain yourself. I could be wrong, maybe you need to be in a relationship to survive.... but i never got that from you. ::smiles:: i'm sure that if you were to start a relationship and one or two was missing, you wouldnt keel over and die either. It would be something you worked towards with your submissive......... so your want could be fullfilled. i also never got from you a sense of rigidness that you would absolutetly refuse to bend for some one you deem worthy.

So again, wants. (but i could be wrong about you)

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Post #: 41

RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 9:46:25 AM

Devilslilsister

Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
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quote:

Let me try and put this in Trollese. "I have been an unruly bitch all week but since we are at the grocery store I am going to get a candy bar because I want it. If I don't get it I quit!"

There are different types of wants, are there not? There are important ones and unimportant ones. What you're stating is an extreme example that isnt actually realistic. Any relationship where some one would walk over a candy bar.... isnt a relationship anyways. Or even anything of the sort.

Yet, if you take an important need - like communication and withhold it for a few months - i can see the unruly bitch walking. Except i wouldnt call her an unruly bitch, i would call her a woman who wants better for herself.

This whole thing of dumb ass wants vs important wants - i think is retarded. We should all be intelligent enough to discern the two. So speaking about dumb ass wants really is a moot point. Speaking of important wants...

You can only withhold an important want so long before it stops being a want. You end up on tricky ground of teaching the sub to not want. And then where will you be? With consequences YOU dont want and there are consequences. Its a tricky game to play.

IMO - reasonable, important wants should be fullfilled in a reasonable manner for the health of a relationship. Not on a reward basis, but merely because you as the Dominant are intelligent enough to realise the damage that can be done from withholding and playing games with certian things.

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

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Post #: 42

RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 10:39:03 AM

FukinTroll

Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

quote:

You are presuming my list is optional.

Not at all. What i am assuming is that you could live with out your list. If you were put on a desert island, i do not think you would keel over and die because those "needs" are not met. IMO they are wants. Albeit, important wants - that you may deem anything less is unacceptable. Yet still wants.

I may be a bit fuzzy on this point here. Is this a BDSM site? Where people, may, meet and enter into a relationship? Have I been doing it wrong by being specific? Should I be more vague so I can have failure after failure?

quote:

IMO - from reading all of your posts, i would think that you do quite well sustaining yourself. Listing those things as "needs" also states that you "need" to be in a relationship, which would make it impossible for you to sustain yourself. I could be wrong, maybe you need to be in a relationship to survive.... but i never got that from you. ::smiles:: i'm sure that if you were to start a relationship and one or two was missing, you wouldnt keel over and die either. It would be something you worked towards with your submissive......... so your want could be fullfilled. i also never got from you a sense of rigidness that you would absolutetly refuse to bend for some one you deem worthy.

I have no need for a relationship. I want one, and that relationship will fullfill the needs I define for it. That is where the conundrum begins. I don't need anyone, never have. I may like people, just not very many, and may want to be in a relationship. Nevertheless that relationship will be defined by me and negotiations will be made. Will I make concessions on what I feel are her wants or needs? Nope! There are plenty of other people who will and that is where she will go. I am who I am with my own ideals of what I want in a relationship and am uncompromising in those. I am not looking for a quick fix or a fling; if I were I would be in paradise. I am here for a commitment and she will understand the control is mine, and this is how it will be. We only get what we settle for and I refuse to settle for someone I will not be happy with. I refuse to let her settle on me if I feel my ways will not make her happy.

quote:

So again, wants. (but i could be wrong about you)

In your opinion, perhaps shared by others, it is wants. Yes, for me you are wrong.

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Post #: 43

RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 10:47:32 AM

FukinTroll

Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

quote:

Let me try and put this in Trollese. "I have been an unruly bitch all week but since we are at the grocery store I am going to get a candy bar because I want it. If I don't get it I quit!"

There are different types of wants, are there not? There are important ones and unimportant ones. What you're stating is an extreme example that isnt actually realistic. Any relationship where some one would walk over a candy bar.... isnt a relationship anyways. Or even anything of the sort.

People have split over less.

quote:

Yet, if you take an important need - like communication and withhold it for a few months - i can see the unruly bitch walking. Except i wouldnt call her an unruly bitch, i would call her a woman who wants better for herself.

Hmmm... I believe communication is within my needs list. Perhaps you over looked it. My need = her want.

quote:

This whole thing of dumb ass wants vs important wants - i think is retarded. We should all be intelligent enough to discern the two. So speaking about dumb ass wants really is a moot point. Speaking of important wants...

DLS what you perceive as a dumbass want may be very valid for someone else.

quote:

You can only withhold an important want so long before it stops being a want. You end up on tricky ground of teaching the sub to not want. And then where will you be? With consequences YOU dont want and there are consequences. Its a tricky game to play.

I have no intention of teaching a sub anything. I am here for a slave whose agenda will be my agenda. It is all about me.

quote:

IMO - reasonable, important wants should be fullfilled in a reasonable manner for the health of a relationship. Not on a reward basis, but merely because you as the Dominant are intelligent enough to realise the damage that can be done from withholding and playing games with certian things.

Shoot me a list of reasonable wants.

_____________________________

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TrollTopia
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The Mods have me on speed Spank!! Gotta luv'em.

(in reply to Devilslilsister)

Post #: 44

RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 12:48:10 PM

SirDominic

Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel

FT, reading your post in the other thread, as I understand it, you list her "wants" as corresponding with your "needs". What I'm not understanding is how, for instance, cuddling is a need for you, but a want for her? What if it's a need for her?

My confusion comes into the big scheme of the relationship as a whole, rather than individual incidents, although individual incidents contribute to the big scheme. You get what you give. If one side of the equation is always giving and hardly ever getting, or has to beg to get, just because it's a dom's prerogative to withhold or make it difficult or whatever.. it just seems to me that it could lead to a lot of frustration and/or resentment from their sub/slave.

I don't know...... maybe I'm not explaining my thoughts very well.

BR, you are missing his point alltogether. For him the slave's wants are to meet his needs. Period. If it is a need for her, she is out of luck, as he has no interest in her needs.

As to your second paragraph, a Dom who withholds just because he can seems to me to be more of a control freak. Control freaks make poor Doms, unless they hook up with a submissive who needs to be micromanaged.

The disparity between taking and giving is a difficult issue for many couples, BDSM or vanilla. Most men do not want or need the kind of emotional closeness women do, especially after the initial bloom has fallen from the rose. It kills a lot of relationships. The man who loves the emotional connnection as much as his woman is a treasure beyond words.

I love to cuddle, for example. Can't get enough of it. My slave does, too. I am a demanding Master, and she loves it because she knows that at the end of it all we are just going to snuggle and share being together.

Finally, yes you are explaining your thoughts well. This is the frustration that is at the core of your discontent.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to BRNaughtyAngel)

Post #: 45

RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 12:59:24 PM

Devilslilsister

Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

I may be a bit fuzzy on this point here. Is this a BDSM site? Where people, may, meet and enter into a relationship? Have I been doing it wrong by being specific? Should I be more vague so I can have failure after failure?

Well of course, but we're talking about needs and wants.

quote:

I have no need for a relationship. I want one, and that relationship will fullfill the needs I define for it.

If you dont need a relationship, how can you have needs when it comes to it period? Isnt it more accurate that you "want a relationship and in that relationship you will fullfill your wants you define for it"?

quote:

Will I make concessions on what I feel are her wants or needs? Nope! There are plenty of other people who will and that is where she will go. I am who I am with my own ideals of what I want in a relationship and am uncompromising in those.

Well that is you. i personally see people as imperfect. i think it highly unlikely that there is anyone that will fit my list of wants down to the T. i compromise for the bigger picture, as for me its not the little crap that matters - but the big picture crap. And that is just me.

quote:

We only get what we settle for and I refuse to settle for someone I will not be happy with. I refuse to let her settle on me if I feel my ways will not make her happy.

i agree that one shouldnt settle for some one that can not fullfill the important wants. It would never work anyways. But i am not talking about settling. i'm talking about some one close enough to what you want, yet as we are all a work in progress - understanding that some things need to be worked on. As a Dominant, i would think you would agree with that as most Dominants train girls to their liking. For example. Master met me and i wasnt a masochist. He is a sadist so he wants a girl who can enjoy pain. Did he settle with me? No, he just trained me to his liking. He compromised knowing that the big picture things of what he wanted was there.... and the other things he wanted could be worked out.

quote:

Yes, for me you are wrong.

Fair enough

quote:

People have split over less.

i suppose they have..... Yet from my knowledge of people its generally not the little things people split over. Its a bigger problem that manifests itself into smaller more managable problems. But, i'm sure people do it and how can a relationship be a relationship if it is so easily torn apart by something so insignificant?

And you are right about how i percieve dumb ass wants.... they can be valid to others.

quote:

I have no intention of teaching a sub anything. I am here for a slave whose agenda will be my agenda. It is all about me.

No? You wouldnt want to teach a sub to please you better? You wouldnt want to teach a sub anything? Agenda's can match up, this i agree. Yet to say it is "all about you" ::shrugs:: Seems pretty egotisically based, dont ya think? A one sided relationship, very rarely works out. Which is why most relationships are not about "me" but "us". A girl may enjoy focusing solely on you...... for awhile... yet do you think it would work out long term? Nothing on the planet, not even relationships, revolve around one person. As they say, it takes two to tango.

quote:

Shoot me a list of reasonable wants.

Newp, i'm going to have to decline. The conversation has left me a bit dissapointed when it comes to your stance and i'm not in the mood to continue it. Good luck in your search, hope you find what you want.

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to FukinTroll)

Post #: 46

RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 1:35:33 PM

BRNaughtyAngel

Posts: 1821
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic
BR, you are missing his point alltogether. For him the slave's wants are to meet his needs. Period. If it is a need for her, she is out of luck, as he has no interest in her needs.

As to your second paragraph, a Dom who withholds just because he can seems to me to be more of a control freak. Control freaks make poor Doms, unless they hook up with a submissive who needs to be micromanaged.

The disparity between taking and giving is a difficult issue for many couples, BDSM or vanilla. Most men do not want or need the kind of emotional closeness women do, especially after the initial bloom has fallen from the rose. It kills a lot of relationships. The man who loves the emotional connnection as much as his woman is a treasure beyond words.

I love to cuddle, for example. Can't get enough of it. My slave does, too. I am a demanding Master, and she loves it because she knows that at the end of it all we are just going to snuggle and share being together.

Finally, yes you are explaining your thoughts well. This is the frustration that is at the core of your discontent.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

Thank you Sir Dominic for helping me to understand.

And your points about men and the emotional connection (and snuggling etc) are issues that I can relate to from past vanilla relationships, and are a current source of confusion and frustration.

Thank you again.

(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 47

RE: how far to push patience - 3/17/2007 10:37:48 AM

OnlyHis

Posts: 137
Joined: 2/25/2004
Status: offline

devilslilsister, I agree with you about our Owners teaching us the things they enjoy and want and need and desire. Like you, Master taught me to enjoy pain, something i had no idea i ever would. He taught me to be more open minded to the this diverse lifestyle, taught me to accept myself- what I looked like , how I saw myself. And many other things too.
I have to admit I could not read His mind and know everything he was looking for . I had to learn much of that. But that is what worked for use. To each their own.

(in reply to Devilslilsister)

Post #: 48

RE: how far to push patience - 3/17/2007 8:46:02 PM

FukinTroll

Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

BR, you are missing his point alltogether. For him the slave's wants are to meet his needs. Period. If it is a need for her, she is out of luck, as he has no interest in her needs.

Oh goody! I have been a bit depressed since the Miss Cleo ordeal, but now that your here I feel much gooder. So lets get right after it!!

Oh omniscient one what is next weeks winning lottery number?
Oh omniscient one who was the second gunman?
Oh omniscient one did they kill the right Sadam?

Perhaps you need a warm-up first.

Oh omniscient one what is my favorite color?
Oh omniscient one what is my favorite vehicle?
Oh omniscient one where are my car keys?

_____________________________

I'm the guy your girl is thinking about when she is fucking you!

TrollTopia
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The Mods have me on speed Spank!! Gotta luv'em.

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Post #: 49

RE: how far to push patience - 3/17/2007 8:51:36 PM

FukinTroll

Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

Newp, i'm going to have to decline. The conversation has left me a bit dissapointed when it comes to your stance and i'm not in the mood to continue it. Good luck in your search, hope you find what you want.

Because you are not hearing what you want to hear does not make me a villain kelly. I know the ordeal you went through left you a bit raw, but it has nothing to do with me. If you really care to understand my stance feel free to contact me on the other side, or ask for more clarification. However you want to do it but you are going to have to divorce your personal feelings from it.

_____________________________

I'm the guy your girl is thinking about when she is fucking you!

TrollTopia
Greedy Groupie!

The Mods have me on speed Spank!! Gotta luv'em.

(in reply to Devilslilsister)

Post #: 50

RE: how far to push patience - 3/18/2007 12:14:10 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
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From: another planet
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You should only really push a subs patience so far
They tend to bite back after a while.
Disclaimer - general reply

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Post #: 51

RE: how far to push patience - 3/18/2007 5:52:52 AM

Elorin

Posts: 970
Joined: 8/22/2004
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline

I don't know how patient each sub can be. I know that my houseboy wanted me to spank him. Unfortunately, he never asked me to spank him. Instead, he kept telling me he was worthless and should be beaten as punishment. I don't beat people as punishment. He finally walked after his passive aggressive methods didn't work for him He was my houseboy for something along the lines of 4 or 5 months. That was how far his patience went - but it wasn't a matter of intentionally refusing anything from him. It was a matter of poor communication.

M and I had a really hard time working out our relationship, and my collar was removed around Thanksgiving of 2005. I went well over a year and a half as his girlfriend rather than sub, while we tried to identify what we need. Our first realization was that we had to define "need." We were not defining "what we need to live/survive" we were defining "what we need to be happy and satisfied in our relationship." Once that was defined, we each wrote things down and talked to one another. And our mutual agreement is that needs must be met - mine and his. He might challenge and need and we might talk about it but as long as I stick to saying "I truly need this (to be happy and fulfilled in our relationship)" he accepts it as one of my needs, and vice versa.

When it comes to what I want, I have a variety of things. I want to sit at his feet sometimes. I want to be fisted sometimes. I want to lick his boots sometimes. I want to be led on a leash sometimes. I can live without any of these things, and I can be happy and fulfilled without these things. Getting them makes me happier, but I'm not miserable without them. I trust that Sir likes me to be happy, and he likes me to get what I want sometimes. But the timeframe is his. I communicate to him my wants, and he makes the final decision. And if my desire for something became so strong that it started to make me unhappy that I wasn't getting it, I would tell him. "Sir, it has been so long since I got to lick your boots I"m beginning to need it, rather than just want it." And then I would wait, knowing that he fulfills my needs and wants. I trust him to decide on the timeframe of delivery, and I trust that he likes giving me my wants, so I know I will get them often enough that I am content in my relationship with him.

I would not be in a D/s relationship as the bottom if the Top didn't enjoy giving me what I want. I am not someone who craves denial all the time, so I would not enter that relationship with someone who was constantly denying me and refusing to give me anything that I want.

What Sir wants, he gets if I'm able to give it to him. But our order of precedences is needs (his and mine have equal value), his wants, and then when he chooses to indulge, my wants. I am happy with it being so.

~Ms. Elorin

(in reply to missturbation)

Post #: 52

RE: how far to push patience - 3/18/2007 7:01:11 AM

SirDominic

Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

Because you are not hearing what you want to hear does not make me a villain kelly. I know the ordeal you went through left you a bit raw, but it has nothing to do with me. If you really care to understand my stance feel free to contact me on the other side, or ask for more clarification. However you want to do it but you are going to have to divorce your personal feelings from it.

You want submissives to divorce their personal feelings? What possible use would a sub without feelings be! I think the point that you are missing is that very often it is not what you say, but how you say it. You do have valuable contributions to make, but the method you use to get your point across drowns out the message. Just food for thought.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

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Post #: 53

RE: how far to push patience - 3/18/2007 7:15:27 AM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

~fast reply~ i thought that Troll wanted a slave, not a submissive. Therein might lie the difference.

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(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 54

RE: how far to push patience - 3/18/2007 8:01:25 AM

FukinTroll

Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

You want submissives to divorce their personal feelings? What possible use would a sub without feelings be! I think the point that you are missing is that very often it is not what you say, but how you say it. You do have valuable contributions to make, but the method you use to get your point across drowns out the message. Just food for thought.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

Dominic, I am trying really hard not to call stupid here, so I am going to assume you didn’t realize that this post was to DLS who is already in a relationship, and the if she personally wanted clarification then she needed to divorce her personal feelings to grasp my point.

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The Mods have me on speed Spank!! Gotta luv'em.

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Post #: 55

RE: how far to push patience - 3/18/2007 8:39:40 AM

SirDominic

Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

FT, you do realize you're proving my point for me.

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

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Post #: 56

RE: how far to push patience - 3/18/2007 8:44:19 AM

FukinTroll

Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

FT, you do realize you're proving my point for me.

I was trying to avoid it but I think it is getting pretty clear without me spelling it out. Your curt posts make it clear that you are mentally challenged.

_____________________________

I'm the guy your girl is thinking about when she is fucking you!

TrollTopia
Greedy Groupie!

The Mods have me on speed Spank!! Gotta luv'em.

(in reply to SirDominic)

Post #: 57

RE: how far to push patience - 3/18/2007 8:49:50 AM

angelic

Posts: 1807
Joined: 1/24/2005
Status: offline

~Testosterone spill, isle 4!~

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~....and once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return.~ -- Leonardo de Vinci

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Post #: 58

RE: how far to push patience - 3/18/2007 3:38:43 PM

SirDominic

Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll
I was trying to avoid it but I think it is getting pretty clear without me spelling it out. Your curt posts make it clear that you are mentally challenged.

I'd reply, but you are digging your own hole so effectively it hardly seems fair.

angelic, apologies for the spill. I'd recommend avoiding isle 4 until the mess is cleaned up!

Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to FukinTroll)

Post #: 59

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