RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (Full Version)

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Gauge -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 1:47:01 PM)

quote:

Did you take the time to read the article ? Or did you just read the headline?


Nope. Didn't read the article. I always post articles that I never read.

quote:

 The USA is a nuclear power. You may resent this but its a fact. 


I do not resent this. I used to back in the 80's but not anymore.

quote:

 Its always good to try and make a safer weapon. All mechanical systems fail in time. Its only prudent to replace older systems with newer ones.  


While I agree to a point that replacing older systems may make mechanical sense but it does little for political sense. We boss around others telling them they can't play with nukes... neither should we.

quote:

 We will, according to the article be able to reduce the number of weapons with the newer model.  So it will reduce the stockpile. 


This is little comfort at all. Since we can kill everything on the planet 10,000 times over... if we reduce one third of the nukes we can kill everything approx 7,000 over. Makes perfect sense to me.

quote:

 Preventing nuclear proliferation is not just an american policy its an international policy ( BTW  N Korea signed and broke this treaty )  


Then when does it become a "do as I say not as I do" policy? Who are we?

quote:

 Iran's pursuit of this technology is scary as to their primary religious fervor for strapping bombs to themselves. If they have no qualms using conventional explosives to attack civilians while blowing themselves up, what makes you think they'd resist using nukes? 


The fact that Iranian Muslim extremists may well use a nuke is not in dispute. It scares me that it is a possibility... this is not my point. My point is if we are so full of ourselves as a "Super Power" then we ought to lead by example and not make sweeping changes "improving" our systems while threatening war with Iran for wanting to develop nukes. It is a double standard... this is my point.




cadenas -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 1:49:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Let's see...

Clinton - one semen stained dress.

Bush - thousands of blood stained uniforms and tens of thousands of blood stained articles of civillian clothing.

Nope. I can't tell the difference.

Z.

Try Bosnia and Somalia.. Both places servicemen died. I didnt like Clinton policy's. But as CIC would you hold the blood of the military losses as his? I wouldn't He made a decision to put men in harms way. Thats the job of the military to execute those orders. We know that there will be risks.

As for Clintons pusuit of head from younger women, I have no problem with that. Its an issue for him and his wife. I didn't like that he fished off the company pier. Its always bad form to hit on interns.

I have never understood how liberal women could be so supportive of this man. His conduct is the antithesis of what they publicly stand for.

He was impeached for perjury, not the blowjob.
It was interesting that the deposition was for a sexual harassment lawsuit ( a womens issue ) which he fought all the way to the supreme court not to take.


First of all, the underlying lawsuit was frivolously brought in the first place. Second, it was a *private* matter that should never have been the basis of impeachment in the first place. Even if it was perjury (which it wasn't).

Bush has lied about matters of state. Bush has spied on us Americans without a warrant, imprisons at random without trial, wages wars against innocent countries while failing to protect American cities such as New Orleans. Signing statements. Guantanamo. Failure to register prisoners of war.

If we manage to kick our do-nothing Congress in the butt, we'd easily end up with dozens and dozens of true high crimes and misdemeanors, enough for impeachment.

As you say: now can you see the difference?




slaveluci -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 2:02:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HydroMaster
I think most of the fear about other countries having them is that they might actually use them in war. 


Indeed....like we did.  And therein lies the fearsome part about nuclear weapons.  They might ACTUALLY get used on someone, even the U.S.  As i mentioned, it is the height of absurdity IMHO, that the U.S. deigns itself as the authority on their usage when we have been the ones who actually dropped that bomb......slave luci



defiantbadgirl -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 2:03:18 PM)

I wonder how many of those who maligned Clinton cheated on their own spouses or significant others.



slaveluci -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 2:08:48 PM)

As for Clintons pusuit of head from younger women, I have no problem with that. Its an issue for him and his wife. I didn't like that he fished off the company pier. Its always bad form to hit on interns.

I have never understood how liberal women could be so supportive of this man. His conduct is the antithesis of what they publicly stand for.


[/quote]

Both are very valid points.  i always did say that i had NO issue with his actions other than two things, really.  #1 - that he went to such extremes to lie about them when exposed when he should have just simply said he wasn't going to discuss such a private matter and #2 - that, as leader of the free world, so to speak, seems he would have had more on his plate than sneaking around in the White House getting head and making late night, covert phone calls.  That always kind of scared me.  Who is running the country while this is occurring???? [image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m28.gif[/image]....lol......




seeksfemslave -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 2:15:27 PM)

I always thought that that trollope lol Monica threw herself at Bill. He was powerless to resist..



Sternhand4 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 2:20:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Let's see...

Clinton - one semen stained dress.

Bush - thousands of blood stained uniforms and tens of thousands of blood stained articles of civillian clothing.

Nope. I can't tell the difference.

Z.

Try Bosnia and Somalia.. Both places servicemen died. I didnt like Clinton policy's. But as CIC would you hold the blood of the military losses as his? I wouldn't He made a decision to put men in harms way. Thats the job of the military to execute those orders. We know that there will be risks.

As for Clintons pusuit of head from younger women, I have no problem with that. Its an issue for him and his wife. I didn't like that he fished off the company pier. Its always bad form to hit on interns.

I have never understood how liberal women could be so supportive of this man. His conduct is the antithesis of what they publicly stand for.

He was impeached for perjury, not the blowjob.
It was interesting that the deposition was for a sexual harassment lawsuit ( a womens issue ) which he fought all the way to the supreme court not to take.


First of all, the underlying lawsuit was frivolously brought in the first place.
Frivolous to who? Was it politically motivated, sure it was. But it doesnt change the facts. He lied under oath in 1 deposition  ( Paula Jones ) about sexual harassment, about another liason with an intern ( Monica ). All relevant areas for discovery. Maybe you just don't support a womans right to sue.

Second, it was a *private* matter that should never have been the basis of impeachment in the first place.
Lying under oath is still a crime here...
Even if it was perjury (which it wasn't).
It clearly was as he was disbarred for it.
Bush has lied about matters of state.
Its called policy all politicians do this
Bush has spied on us Americans without a warrant, imprisons at random without trial,
Its called the homeland security act /
wages wars against innocent countries
Innocent? really are you that naive?
 
while failing to protect American cities such as New Orleans.
I forgot that they issued a cape when elected POTUS. Many agency's failed in the hurrican's wake. But the biggest fault lays with the govenors office in LA not in washington.
Signing statements.
?
Guantanamo. Failure to register prisoners of war.

Lets notify the Al Queda people that we have captured them, how do you propose to do this, as they are not a nation. Its a new version of war which needs to be fought by new standards.
I do not mean that we should sink to the level of terrorists, but there needs to be new rules for this type of war.

If we manage to kick our do-nothing Congress in the butt, we'd easily end up with dozens and dozens of true high crimes and misdemeanors, enough for impeachment.

Too bad the Dems have backed away from this, I was looking forward to it. Its a long stretch from rhetoric to reality.
As you say: now can you see the difference?

Yes I see that no matter which side is in power mistakes are made.




meatcleaver -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 2:45:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

Just in case anyone missed the headline: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070302/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/new_warheads

We don't want North Korea to have nukes and we are on the brink of expanding our war into Iran but the good old USA once again shows how inept it's leadership is and decide that now is a good time to replace our nuclear warheads. Pray tell where is this money to replace them coming from? What kind of message does this send around the world? Obviously the USA is not interested in dismantling it's arsenal. I am terribly confused by all of this. I think that it is hypocritical to say one thing and do another but this isn't really a shock coming from George W and his cronies.

Bush may well go down in history as the worst president that this country has ever had. I am not really into politics but this headline disturbed me.


Rightwingers are right, that's why they are called rightwingers, hypocrisy and double dealing is only done by their enemies, who invariably have oil or want a nuke to protect themselves from the said rightwingers.

When the current administration talks about freedom, civilisation, honesty and all the other rightwing kant, the world lets out an almighty guffaw at the bare faced cheek of such hypocrites, demanding standards of which they know nothing about.



popeye1250 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 2:49:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Let's see...

Clinton - one semen stained dress.

Bush - thousands of blood stained uniforms and tens of thousands of blood stained articles of civillian clothing.

Nope. I can't tell the difference.

Z.


Wow, how soon they forget.
I guess no-one remembers the commuter train in Yugoslavia that the Air Force mistakenly targeted and blew to bits.
Were there 700 who died on that train?
As for HIV ten thousand times the number of people die from cancer but I don't see anyone blaming any President for that.
It's priorities, do you save 10,000 or one?



meatcleaver -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 2:51:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

Did you take the time to read the article ? Or did you just read the headline?
The USA is a nuclear power. You may resent this but its a fact.
Its always good to try and make a safer weapon. All mechanical systems fail in time. Its only prudent to replace older systems with newer ones.
We will, according to the article be able to reduce the number of weapons with the newer model.  So it will reduce the stockpile.

Preventing nuclear proliferation is not just an american policy its an international policy ( BTW  N Korea signed and broke this treaty )

Iran's pursuit of this technology is scary as to their primary religious fervor for strapping bombs to themselves. If they have no qualms using conventional explosives to attack civilians while blowing themselves up, what makes you think they'd resist using nukes?


There is nothing wrong with the USA being a nuclear power, I don't think the OP was about that, it was about the gross hypocrisy involved in demanding that other countries don't have them.

Iran having nuclear weapons is no more scary than the USA or anyone else having them. President Chirac said Iran having a bomb or two wouldn't be a problem until he thought he'd better get back in line. The USA being the only country that has used nukes and then unnecessarily, it has some gall to accuse other countries of being dangerous.



Sternhand4 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 3:02:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

Did you take the time to read the article ? Or did you just read the headline?
The USA is a nuclear power. You may resent this but its a fact.
Its always good to try and make a safer weapon. All mechanical systems fail in time. Its only prudent to replace older systems with newer ones.
We will, according to the article be able to reduce the number of weapons with the newer model.  So it will reduce the stockpile.

Preventing nuclear proliferation is not just an american policy its an international policy ( BTW  N Korea signed and broke this treaty )

Iran's pursuit of this technology is scary as to their primary religious fervor for strapping bombs to themselves. If they have no qualms using conventional explosives to attack civilians while blowing themselves up, what makes you think they'd resist using nukes?


There is nothing wrong with the USA being a nuclear power, I don't think the OP was about that, it was about the gross hypocrisy involved in demanding that other countries don't have them.

Iran having nuclear weapons is no more scary than the USA or anyone else having them. President Chirac said Iran having a bomb or two wouldn't be a problem until he thought he'd better get back in line. The USA being the only country that has used nukes and then unnecessarily, it has some gall to accuse other countries of being dangerous.


How do you find that it was unnecessary? We had to drop 2 just to make them understand that the war was over.

There was alot of debate internally as to wether we should demonstrate the weapon before using it. But the fact ( 20/20 hindsight) that they didnt surrender right off the bat after hiroshima makes it less likely that the Japanese would have given up after a demo.
As for the need, ask anyone from that generation if it was justified, or needed. I asked my grandfather. He served in the far east, and would have been part of the invasion. After Iwo those guys dreaded going into the mainland. He said it was a godsend and saved lives.



popeye1250 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 3:09:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cadenas

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

Let's see...

Clinton - one semen stained dress.

Bush - thousands of blood stained uniforms and tens of thousands of blood stained articles of civillian clothing.

Nope. I can't tell the difference.

Z.

Try Bosnia and Somalia.. Both places servicemen died. I didnt like Clinton policy's. But as CIC would you hold the blood of the military losses as his? I wouldn't He made a decision to put men in harms way. Thats the job of the military to execute those orders. We know that there will be risks.

As for Clintons pusuit of head from younger women, I have no problem with that. Its an issue for him and his wife. I didn't like that he fished off the company pier. Its always bad form to hit on interns.

I have never understood how liberal women could be so supportive of this man. His conduct is the antithesis of what they publicly stand for.

He was impeached for perjury, not the blowjob.
It was interesting that the deposition was for a sexual harassment lawsuit ( a womens issue ) which he fought all the way to the supreme court not to take.


First of all, the underlying lawsuit was frivolously brought in the first place. Second, it was a *private* matter that should never have been the basis of impeachment in the first place. Even if it was perjury (which it wasn't).

Bush has lied about matters of state. Bush has spied on us Americans without a warrant, imprisons at random without trial, wages wars against innocent countries while failing to protect American cities such as New Orleans. Signing statements. Guantanamo. Failure to register prisoners of war.

If we manage to kick our do-nothing Congress in the butt, we'd easily end up with dozens and dozens of true high crimes and misdemeanors, enough for impeachment.

As you say: now can you see the difference?




Cadenas, to that list I would add; "Failure to enforce our immigration laws, failure (or even "refusal") to close that border with Mexico.
As for those mutts in gtmo they aren't covered under the Geneva Conventions. And they should'nt give them bibles or korans.
Where's the seperation between church and state?
Our govt. shouldn't be giving (anyone) bibles, korans, talmuds or anything else connected with religion.



meatcleaver -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 3:36:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


How do you find that it was unnecessary? We had to drop 2 just to make them understand that the war was over.

There was alot of debate internally as to wether we should demonstrate the weapon before using it. But the fact ( 20/20 hindsight) that they didnt surrender right off the bat after hiroshima makes it less likely that the Japanese would have given up after a demo.
As for the need, ask anyone from that generation if it was justified, or needed. I asked my grandfather. He served in the far east, and would have been part of the invasion. After Iwo those guys dreaded going into the mainland. He said it was a godsend and saved lives.



Actually it is well recorded that Japan wanted to surrender. Nuking Japan was more to demonstrate the bomb to the USSR, killing some 200,000 people in the process. I think someone pointed out on one of the threads that the US lost 50,000 troops in the Pacific war, less than they lost in the European arena so the idea that Japan was proving a worse enemy than the Germans doesn't stand up.

The US aren't the only ones guilty of war crimes in WWII, Britain did its share of killing civilians in the bombings of Hamburg and Dresden but lets not pretend the wests crimes aren't crimes when they patently are.



Gauge -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 3:54:14 PM)

Fast Reply:

Just to re-focus, my issue is with how we justify telling others what to do when we do not do the same thing.

I have a basic problem with a double standard that we hold others accountable while we basically go unchecked. Who watches the watchers?



cyberdude611 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 4:01:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sternhand4

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver


How do you find that it was unnecessary? We had to drop 2 just to make them understand that the war was over.

There was alot of debate internally as to wether we should demonstrate the weapon before using it. But the fact ( 20/20 hindsight) that they didnt surrender right off the bat after hiroshima makes it less likely that the Japanese would have given up after a demo.
As for the need, ask anyone from that generation if it was justified, or needed. I asked my grandfather. He served in the far east, and would have been part of the invasion. After Iwo those guys dreaded going into the mainland. He said it was a godsend and saved lives.



Actually it is well recorded that Japan wanted to surrender. Nuking Japan was more to demonstrate the bomb to the USSR, killing some 200,000 people in the process. I think someone pointed out on one of the threads that the US lost 50,000 troops in the Pacific war, less than they lost in the European arena so the idea that Japan was proving a worse enemy than the Germans doesn't stand up.

The US aren't the only ones guilty of war crimes in WWII, Britain did its share of killing civilians in the bombings of Hamburg and Dresden but lets not pretend the wests crimes aren't crimes when they patently are.



You want to know what it appears like to me, MC? Apparently you think anyone that participates in a war is committing a war crime. For some reason people have trouble understanding that in a war...PEOPLE DIE! Lots of people die! You can try to be as careful as you can, but no matter what innocent people are going to die. Does that mean it is a war crime? Nope. It's considered "collateral damage." It is only a war crime when the people are specifically targetted.

Japan attacked the United States where nearly 2,500 people died. That is an act of war. America won the war and Japan paid the price. So dont try to twist and rewrite history to serve your own anti-America agenda. If Japan didn't attack America, they would not have been nuked. And Europe would have lost to Germany.



redpetals -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 4:07:46 PM)

I love my country.
(I have serious issue with people abusing their rights here.
Personally ,I see people get away with terrorist activities all the time.
Best case in point the "animal rights ass holes")

.However,when it comes to my country having the right
(I call it duty) to have the power to protect us..then it is pretty simple.
Even though I am interested in world viewpoints,I always take the critique
very lightly.
Why?
Because I am really  tired of the "have nots" telling the "has some" that they need to share.
The only ones who are watching out for us is our own government.
We are a seperate nation for a reason.
Period.
We are having hard enough time  with our internal issues.
We can not be expected to do everything for everybody.
No matter what we do in world affairs someone will be unhappy.
Boo hoo.
Bush will go down as a "a president that didnt sit on his thumb".
You can ,and I'm betting you all will..say what you want ,but Clinton didnt do
a friggen thing to help this country.
.

We are not hypocriticle because we have means to protect  ourselves from the rest of the world.
How stupid anyone is to compare our policy to any muslim country's policy
Do you think Iran or N Korea is anywhere near fair as  us?
Did we make Japan Christian?
Are we even attempting to make Iraq Christian?
When have we ever started a friggen war?


What will Canada do?
What will you do to protect yourselves?
Oh wait..thats right..what do you have that anyone wants?
Talent?
Everyone comes to the United States.
LOL

You can not make someone like you..but you can make them respect you.
And if respect has to equal "fear" then so be it.
You think you can understand the rest of the world?
If you have not been  raised to hate the US for being strong then
how can you know where they are coming from?
Most of the rest of the world wants us dead simply because we dont bow down to their God.
Do you understand that?











Sternhand4 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 4:07:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge

Fast Reply:

Just to re-focus, my issue is with how we justify telling others what to do when we do not do the same thing.

I have a basic problem with a double standard that we hold others accountable while we basically go unchecked. Who watches the watchers?


It simple. We developed a technology that has the potential to end all life on the planet.
We resolve to stop going down that path. How many nations need to make the same mistake?
My UM's have used this logic in the past. The kid down the street does it, why can't I?



redpetals -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 4:09:56 PM)

we watch the watchers..because we can



subrob1967 -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 4:25:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gauge
As a bumper sticker I saw said:

When Clinton lied no one died.


It really should have said, We Liberals Lie, because 7500 Military Personnel under Clinton died.

How are we hypocritical,? We  ALREADY have nukes, and are replacing old less than reliable weapons.

Is it wrong for us to pressure North Korea to live up to their treaties? I don't think so, if Clinton didn't make concessions to them in the first place, this wouldn't even be an issue.

I know you lefties hate that America is the only Superpower left, and wish everyone were equal, but this Utopia, where everyone under the sun is equal, living green, and where peace is the norm, and not the period between wars for armies retrain and restock up on personnel, is a pipe dream. And Europe and Asia should be damn glad it's us and not the Soviet Union who won the cold war.



Gauge -> RE: New Warheads: America the hypocrites (3/4/2007 4:30:54 PM)

quote:

I love my country.


So do I.

quote:

 We are not hypocriticle because we have means to protect  ourselves from the rest of the world.
How stupid anyone is to compare our policy to any muslim country's policy
Do you think Iran or N Korea is anywhere near fair as  us?
Did we make Japan Christian?
Are we even attempting to make Iraq Christian?
When have we ever started a friggen war?  


I never stated (or implied for that matter) that the root of the USA's hypocrisy was the fact that we could protect ourselves. My issue has been stated clearly.

In answer to your question as to when have we ever started a war? Well... I do believe that invading Iraq based on false information would constitute starting a war... but I may be wrong. Bush used 9/11 to launch the war in Iraq, the focus of the war should have been getting the bastards that killed 3,000 innocent people, not what we were propagandized to believe.

quote:

 You think you can understand the rest of the world?


I never claimed that I could.

quote:

 If you have not been  raised to hate the US for being strong then
how can you know where they are coming from?  


How many Iranian people have you met in your life? I have known several. Their issue with America is that it is two-faced and meddles in affairs that it really has no business in.

quote:

 Most of the rest of the world wants us dead simply because we dont bow down to their God.
Do you understand that?  


Considering that America has diverse religious freedoms this statement makes little sense. While some extremists might have that reasoning overall it is the politics that the "rest of the world" sees America practice that fuels their ire.

While I do not boast of an expansive knowledge of world perception I do understand where these other countries begin to have real issues with America.

My point remains.



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