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Military Service and political leanings - 5/20/2004 7:24:38 AM   
rain


Posts: 319
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline 		I've noticed that quite a few people here have served in the military at one time or another.

I wanted to know the following: How did serving in the military affect your political beliefs, if at all? What side of the political spectrum are you on now?

~rain~

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/20/2004 8:29:19 AM   
Perempt


Posts: 24
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: US
Status: offline 		I'm from that old-Dog era when everyone had a military obligation. I served along with almost everyone else. It made us appreciate what servicemen have done an DO for the country; but it didn't make us gung-ho; and certainly not in favor of unnecessary use of the military force, or unnecessary wars. In fact, the knowledge that the draft could pull most everyone out of normal life at any time made the government more thoughful about foreign adventures, allowing us to contain and defeat the nuclear-armed Soviets over a half-century, without clash of arms.

As to My politics, no change. I was an independent then, with working class attitudes, as I am today.

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/20/2004 10:36:05 AM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		I would just like to thank everyone who has served, really value my freedom, in spite of enjoying my bondage

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/20/2004 1:56:36 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Serving in the military did'nt change my political views at all. Knowledge did.
Oh by the way. I was only a reservist. I could'nt sign my life away without fully knowing what I was ending up in. I figured I could always sign up full time if I liked it that much.

I was called back up to active duty on my non active time. To serve in the first gulf war. That changed my mind about our government a bit. Seeing first hand. Although mostly it just educated me enough to open my eyes a bit more in regular life.

I was an independant then and I still am now. However, I will be voting for Kerry this year. We have to get bush out of office. He has turned his back on this country in my opinion. We need someone who actually cares.

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/20/2004 5:47:38 PM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I do not see the question and am not able to respond to rain.

When I was of draft age we were at peace. I don't know the question, but am I supposed to regret this?

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/20/2004 9:12:36 PM   
inyouagain


Posts: 418
Joined: 1/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rain
I've noticed that quite a few people here have served in the military at one time or another.

I wanted to know the following: How did serving in the military affect your political beliefs, if at all? What side of the political spectrum are you on now?

~rain~

For those that only see red dots for her posts, the nature of the topic rain posted is quoted above. If you were never a member of the military, the question does not apply whether you choose to see it or not.

As a military member, I saw a dedicated and quite capable group of military people working some cases around the clock to accomplish objectives levied on us by the politicians in office. We were contractually bound, and bound by our sworn oath to protect and defend the Constitution and Officials of the US Government. I have lost some very good friends during a few "non-official actions" that never made it into the media and newspapers. Nonetheless, military personnel cannot decide whether the "mission" is just or justified in any way... your job is to carry out the orders handed down by your superiors in the chain of command, not to debate politics.

My political views are essentially the same as prior military, however I've acquired a greater awareness that lack of concern for a "soldier's life" is most prevalent in politics, among politicians... it's the old "out of sight, out of mind" concept, made worse by the soldier's activities being covert or not known to the masses who elected those same politicians. When they say go, you don't ask why... you just go and just do what you have been trained to do, under the auspices that you are doing it for your country.

Can military people be used by flakey or corrupt politicians? Hell yes

Are military people always convinced what they are ordered to do is right? Hell no

Often times, many theaters of operation are of a new variety or sort... and there is no preordained method, and lives are often lost in a rapid learning/maturation curve. What pisses me off is that we have other agencies like the CIA and FBI that get involved, and bend the rules to their liking, often being placed in the chain of command unless questions arise... then they will quickly disappear like they were never even there, such as is the case with the maltreatment of Abu Gharib prison detainees in Iraq. Nearly eavery one of those being charged states they were carrying out orders of their superiors... and CIA and FBI have both been mentioned. Who will be punished? Most likely the lowest face on the totem pole will catch all the FLAK, whether deserving or not.

As a prior military member, it infuriates me to see the pictures in the media, yes. Do I believe they were sinister and unstaged, not necessarily so. I've worked with both these agencies as a military member and I know what they are capable of and how they are never held directly accountable (but how those working with them usually are). I know some of their tactics and the value of "propaganda" applications, especially with regard to "what can or will happen to you" if you don't go along with their methodology and practices for which "they" are not held accountable.

It's even more frustrating when the agencies mentioned are "working" with Rear Echelons... those in the rear, away from the actual confict and fighting. Rear Echelon military members are usually very eager to "help out", but many times take the fall.

For my own reasons, I agree Bush has to go. A military experienced leader in the White House and in charge of US Foreign Policy would be a much needed improvement over our "rich boy George idiot" who's military experience consisted of visiting Topless Bars in Alabama while he served proudly for a few months with The Alabama Air National Guard during the Viet Nam conflict.

Inyouagain

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/20/2004 10:38:33 PM   
Thanatosian


Posts: 765
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: New Castle, PA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rain

I've noticed that quite a few people here have served in the military at one time or another.

I wanted to know the following: How did serving in the military affect your political beliefs, if at all? What side of the political spectrum are you on now?

~rain~


My political beliefs were not changed by my service in the military, other than to reaffirm them.

I am registered independant, but my personal views put me slightly to the left of Rush Limbaugh. (now where did I put my helmet and flak jacket)

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/20/2004 11:07:05 PM   
rain


Posts: 319
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you all for your input thus far, as some of you may have read, i have strong political opinions, which are to the far LEFT.

i'm always interested in finding out what people who are either currently serving, or have served in the military, think about how and when our government uses the military.

i do believe topcat served in the USMC... hopefully he'll add this thoughts on the topic.

Thanatosian, just to the left of Rush? really? That frightens me!

~rain~

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/21/2004 12:48:21 AM   
Thanatosian


Posts: 765
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: New Castle, PA
Status: offline 		mostly only in my 'purely' political views - i.e. how I view politicians and politics ( and economics ) - on other things, I make my decisions based on my life experiences or personal preferences or whim.

Or maybe its because I enjoy being contradictory - born and raised Methodist, still believe Jesus is the Savior ( hence Christian ), yet I believe in free choice when it comes to abortion and I live an alternative lifestyle.

Am a dominant male, believe in the 'natural' submissiveness of women, yes still hew to the codes of chivalry and respect I was taught growing up ( a gentleman holds the door for a lady, rises when she does at table, helps her with her chair, etc. )

Also, believe it or not, am almost painfully shy when it comes to women ( odd trait in a Dom, dont you think?)

anywho, is getting philosophically deep in here

a question - why would someone having political views that are to the right (or even far right if you wish) frighten you? - should I be frightened because you have political views that are self-admittedly "far LEFT"? or can we take our lifestyle tolerance for 'differrent strokes for different folks' a little bit futher and out into the vanilla world to encompass political viewpoints as well? Shall we agree to disagree and continue a (hopefully) mutual respect for thoughts/ideas/feelings/observations here on the board?

this is one of the reasons I HATE discussing politics (and religion) with friends and acquaintances - its even worse than sex to screw up the relationship

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/21/2004 1:10:42 AM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		You would think that tolerance would swing both ways Thanatosian. But it seldom does. I have had people who were cool with me here, suddenly view me as some kind of monster when I mentioned I was a Republican. In my opinion, two sensible people can come to completely different conclusions on any given subject. The fact that I am actually a moderate and oppose fanatics from the left or right doesn't seem to matter to some. Like I always say, when the Left talks of diversity, it always means of color, never ideas.

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/21/2004 6:01:16 AM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Rain,
Have you noticed everyone...well not everyone but the overwhelming majority seems to be independant?
I only know this because of what I have read in your forum here...but also from prior knowledge of speaking to people on the board.

I wonder if independant is a lifetyle related illness so to speak?

Of course Estring is his own person..

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/21/2004 9:56:24 AM   
Thanatosian


Posts: 765
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: New Castle, PA
Status: offline
quote:

Like I always say, when the Left talks of diversity, it always means of color, never ideas.



NOT True














sometimes they mean sex (i.e. 'we need more females in this job category')



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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/21/2004 3:34:30 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Then why are so many conservative blacks called "uncle toms" or considered not really black by the Left? It's because the Left feel that they don't think as all "real" blacks should. Condaleeza Rice, Colin Powell, Clarence Thomas are good examples of this.

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/21/2004 3:37:59 PM   
iwillserveu


Posts: 1633
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Thanatosian,

Thanks for quoting rain.

Military service has correlation to "conservativism" (for lack of another word) not because the military brainwashes everyone but because a conservative is more likely to join in the first place. If we get voting records for people in the peace corps who would wonder at the liberal brain washing?

It is like that stat that most accidents occur in the home. Duh, more time is spent in the home.

Now off topic a bit. In Massachusetts (aka, the People's Republic of Massachusetts) I am a flaming conservative. When I went to college in a "blue" state I was a flaming liberal.

Oh, BTW, I believe in the two party system. Those parties are the Libertarians and Greens. (Republicrats and Demicans are differnt sides of the same incumbent party coin. {And both are liars - those are fighting words where I come from - but I don't come from here})

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When the Lady smiles i can't resist her call. As a matter of fact, i don't resist at all. Well that depends if it is a smile or a grimmace.

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/21/2004 3:45:59 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		Love this email i got yesterday:

*Bumper Sticker of the Year*

*"If you can read this, thank a teacher....*
*And since it's in English, thank a soldier."*

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"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/21/2004 4:03:48 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		iwill, I actually like alot of the positions that The Libertarian Party take. They lose me on foreign policy though. I don't agree with isolationism.

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/21/2004 6:05:17 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline
quote:

i do believe topcat served in the USMC... hopefully he'll add this thoughts on the topic.


'As you wish...'

I served Between the years '80 & '84. I was in a STA platoon- sort of a cross between forward observer and scout/snipers.

I was on the ground in Colombia for drug interdictions, siezed and occupied a Norwegian Village as part of a UN/NATO incursion to enforce fisheries treaties (oddly enough, we we acting on behave of the USSR!). I was the first member of the Marine Expidtionary Unit (MAU) on the ground in Beirut, and may have actually been the last one out, depending on the order that or slicks took off.

I was a bit to the left before going in, and on coming out I found I had been driven so far to the left that I am now on the right.

My family has been in the USMC since 1775 at Tun Tavern in Phildelphia, and as I write this my 2ond Cousin Mickey (Major Mickey, actually) maybe in the air somewhere east of the Suez, Icthing to shoot something- She's easily the most bloodthirsty member of the family. My cousin Chris is in the rear with the beer, back at Camp Pendelton.

Most of the family is patriotic, as we define it, meaning it's possible to love this country, and hate the goverment, and still do what you must to serve.

Ours is not to wonder why, ours is but to shoot the guy.

I do have serious issues with a CIC with G.W. Bushes record- Ever notice that former miliatry Presdents don't go to war? JFK was an exception- the syphillius had rotted his mind by the time he got to the White House.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/21/2004 9:12:42 PM   
rain


Posts: 319
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline 		Thanatosian,

Perhaps "frighten" was too strong a word; it's just that when i think of Rush Limbaugh i think of a racist and fundamentalist. And i don't associate with folks like that.

Estring: i do consider myself to be open minded and i do indeed respect people's opinions that contrast mine. i have learned the hard way that no matter what you believe, if you allow yourself to become dogmatic and ideological in your beliefs- then you are just bad as those you disagree with.

i do, however, enjoy a lively political debate from time to time. i know that i will not convince people of my beliefs, but i do enjoy hearing other's opinions: with excpetion to those who are ignorant, racist, sexist, anti-semeitc and homophobic.

~rain~

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/22/2004 4:45:22 AM   
Thanatosian


Posts: 765
Joined: 5/10/2004
From: New Castle, PA
Status: offline 		rain - have you ever actually listened to Rush's show? or are you going from hearsay? I think if you listen to him you will find he is not any of those things you mentioned as exceptions

proudsub - love it!!!!

topcat - like the little spinoff of the usual ours is not to reason why!

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RE: Military Service and political leanings - 5/22/2004 6:17:55 AM   
rain


Posts: 319
Joined: 4/13/2004
Status: offline 		topcat: you mentioned you have issues with a CIC? What is CIC?

Thanatosian: Actually, i did check out a Rush L. site last night: and although he may not be racist; i disagree with him on just about everything.

Cheers-

~rain~

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