RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (Full Version)

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bludemonn -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/13/2007 4:47:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StellaByStarlite

Hi, Magdalena. =)


If it's totally natural, then you should be able to explain it by using natural rules. Like... how, exactly do spells work? What makes up the energy responsible for them working? These are very basic questions. why would some of them work, but not others?

Cheers,
Stella


Again this comes down to my OP, idiocy when dealing with the occult, you would be stunned how many morons there are out there who would happily pick up a book and try out a spell without understanding the concept behind the rituals, why do you think Occult groups still operate shrouded in secrecy?

You just have to pick up a history book to see the destruction and death caused by people who dont understand what is going on and so fear it, christ sake 'Witches' were put to death regardless of what they said in their defence, they were TOLD what they were doing and people simply believed the prosecutors because they thought surely they were holy men and they couldnt be wrong...could they? This still happens today but its called persecution now, i do understand your need to know question, i am the same but sometimes Science will discount anything that isnt black and white and provable again and again, Science has not caught up with nature in this respect, they are still in the dark ages when it comes to energies, the conductivity of energy and the way in which people receive 'psychic' energy.

Whats worse is that Science has proven itself incapable of 'fact' by contraditing many times what it said previousely i.e. this is bad for you...oh no wait a sec it isn't. I agree with both yourself and Bear on the explaination of 'super-natural' yes I agree with you that if it happens it must be in the realms of nature but for the purpose of identification we tend to call it 'super-natural' its just a categorisation. I dont think anyone here is discounting the part that science has to play in understanding these matters but for me Science needs to lose the attitude that has thwarted progression over the years to start developing rather than hindering.



bludemonn -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/13/2007 4:56:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bella1965

G'morning all:


(Fast Reply)

You do realize that the occult, religion, paranormal and other related  subjects are generated by individuals' need to believe in something other than themselves? Magic is simply the title we give to anything we don't understand and can't prove. It doesn't exist. I'm not saying this to inflame anyone, simply pointing out the obvious.


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella


Hey Bella let me correct you, it dosent exist in YOUR world, you are switched off to it which is fine if you can live by it. Don't get me wrong that is your right just as its the right of generations of people who have been brought up, lived and died by the rituals, the healing concepts of their craft (which are used in modern medicines today).

Magic is not a way to explain something thats unexplainable, Magic is a very real craft used by very few people who use their mind as a way of controlling and regulating their destiny,lives and the space they occupy in time. Trust in me you may choose not to believe this goes on but i can assure you Magic has always existed, not to be confused with illusionsim and tricksters.

If you go through history you will find so many instances of Kings, Queens, and civilisations who were using advanced methods to read the stars, navigate the seas and harness natural elements by using their animistic abilities ne of which is the Psychic ability, it still goes on today and is as real as you and i.



StellaByStarlite -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/13/2007 5:16:15 AM)

Hello, bludemonn. =)

Belief isn't a prerequisite for something that truely exists. And I don't recall any history texts claiming that ancient civilizations used magic to navigate or read the stars. Telescopes and astrolabes, yes.

If magic is a real force, then what are it's contributions? How does it work?

And yes, some medicine today is a direct result of the herbology of the past. But that doesn't mean that ALL ancient medicinal practices were correct. It was, in fact, science that discarded what was bogus and kept what worked. It was science that brought the pacemaker, germ theory, and the x-ray to us.

I'll present the notion that there is a world that exists outside of human perception and is completely testable by natural law. =)

Cheers,
Stella





bludemonn -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/13/2007 5:59:44 AM)

What are your methods of Testing natural law? Magic has always been used in history, did Witches and wise men not cast the moon and cast weather spells for safe journeys and they were employed by Royalty and noblemen and contrary to what you think about how Science dispelled certain myths they actually ended end substantiating them, like the old old wives tale about how eating Fish made you more intelligent, this was laughed off by the establishment until findings that Omega three had direct influence on brain wave activity. Science is only just finding out the properties of plants that Pagans have ALWAYS known, mediums have found historical facts that were only verified AFTER they were found out. Magic is very real but perhaps your notion of Magic is horribly distorted and romanticised thus leading you to put it aside as non Scientific and therefore not real. And you are very wrong about belief not being a prerequisite, ofcourse it is! lol. Your discussion starts to encroach on reality, your reality is not mine, what you see is not what i see and vice versa, in fact belief is THE prerequisite of existance lol, do you subscribe to the 2 dimentional view of existance? Only what you see is real?

What if you see something that i simply can't? What if i see something and notice things and interpret things you cant comprehend?  The very reason we are enjoying this debate is because our view of existance and reality is very different, belief is the cornerstone of being.     

Magic is a very real force, it's akin to using physics even now, Scientists who delve into space and time are only just dicovering properties of what Magicians have known for centuries, the ability to create matter from mind, the use of telekinesis, the harvesting of physical and electrical energies. Most of these practices have always been used its just that Science is the slow process of documentation, in essence its a presentation to the people not in the know. 

Do you believe in meditation? do you believe in healing? Karma? again that is your decision and you are respected for what you feel but there is simply too much documented with regard to alternatives outside of modern Science to discredit its practices, if only one person says to you ' i believe in the power of evocation or demonology to help me overcome my everyday problems' then it exists in their world and cannot be unsubstantiated atall no matter what questions you ask, just as i could never tell you that whatever lifestyle you lead is wrong because you cannot document it and even if you could who says i would believe it? If you touch something percieved as hot and someone else does but they dont feel pain how would you go about explaining it? You cant other than its a matter of belief of mind. 



StellaByStarlite -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/13/2007 11:31:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

What are your methods of Testing natural law? Magic has always been used in history, did Witches and wise men not cast the moon and cast weather spells for safe journeys and they were employed by Royalty and noblemen and contrary to what you think about how Science dispelled certain myths they actually ended end substantiating them, like the old old wives tale about how eating Fish made you more intelligent, this was laughed off by the establishment until findings that Omega three had direct influence on brain wave activity. Science is only just finding out the properties of plants that Pagans have ALWAYS known, mediums have found historical facts that were only verified AFTER they were found out. Magic is very real but perhaps your notion of Magic is horribly distorted and romanticised thus leading you to put it aside as non Scientific and therefore not real. And you are very wrong about belief not being a prerequisite, ofcourse it is! lol. Your discussion starts to encroach on reality, your reality is not mine, what you see is not what i see and vice versa, in fact belief is THE prerequisite of existance lol, do you subscribe to the 2 dimentional view of existance? Only what you see is real?
Okay. =) First things first:
1) One tests natural phenomena by gathering data, forming a hypothesis, tests, tests and more tests. You come up with every other alternative possible for your hypothesis. You present your hypothesis to your peers. It's tested again. It's challenged vigorously. Double-blind controlled studies. Experiments, accuracy measurements. Error bars. Rigorous, skeptical scrutiny by peers.
2) Yes, the practice of spells, chants, scrying, etc, has been used in the past. But how accurate were they? It seems more likely that our ancestors relied on such things because they lacked a better understanding of how the world works.
   For every "old wives tale" science brought to light, there are hundreds of myths and falsehoods it has exposed.
~the earth is flat
~leeches cured disease
~ the sun revolves around the earth
~ disease is caused by evil spirits
~toads cause warts
 These are just an obvious few superstitions dispelled by sciencitic discovery. What does magic do? Does it explore and discover and challenge?
3) The fact that mediums are verified "after the fact" in itself is suspicious. I'd like to see real documented evidence of this. =)
4) You don't have to believe in electricity for it to exist. You don't have to believe in oxygen for it to exist, either. Reality is not dependent upon our perception, it's outside our perception
What if you see something that i simply can't? What if i see something and notice things and interpret things you cant comprehend?  The very reason we are enjoying this debate is because our view of existance and reality is very different, belief is the cornerstone of being.     
1) So, if I told you I had an invisible giant frog living in my garage, you'd believe me? You'd take my word for it?
You probably do interpret things in a way I don't understand. But we're not talking about perception, we're talking about subjective vs objective reality. Because I'm very aware of the human tendency to make mistakes, I don't take anybody's word for it if they make an extrordinary claim. I'd want proof. That's not too unreasonable.
2) Are you saying that without belief, we have no external reality? That's kind of a vague statement, could you clarify?
Magic is a very real force, it's akin to using physics even now, Scientists who delve into space and time are only just dicovering properties of what Magicians have known for centuries, the ability to create matter from mind, the use of telekinesis, the harvesting of physical and electrical energies. Most of these practices have always been used its just that Science is the slow process of documentation, in essence its a presentation to the people not in the know. 
1) Absolutely not. Magic is nowhere NEAR physics, in actual discoveries or the methods behind it. Magic didn't put a man on the moon. And I've cracked upon a lot of books on magic in my day... none of them had the elegant, complex systems and formulas that the average high-school physics book has.
2) These properties you mention.. telekinesis, etc.. have already been tested and discarded ages ago. Where are you getting your information? I'm sorry, but it seems you misunderstand how science actually works. In order for magic to be taken seriously, one would have to do the work required and answer questions about it. Gather evidence that can be tested.
 And no, that is incorrect. Science is NOT just "documentation". It's a method of inquiry designed to produce information that can be proved or disproved. If it were just documentation, we'd still be in the Middle Ages.
Do you believe in meditation? do you believe in healing? Karma? again that is your decision and you are respected for what you feel but there is simply too much documented with regard to alternatives outside of modern Science to discredit its practices, if only one person says to you ' i believe in the power of evocation or demonology to help me overcome my everyday problems' then it exists in their world and cannot be unsubstantiated atall no matter what questions you ask, just as i could never tell you that whatever lifestyle you lead is wrong because you cannot document it and even if you could who says i would believe it? If you touch something percieved as hot and someone else does but they dont feel pain how would you go about explaining it? You cant other than its a matter of belief of mind. 
1) Meditation is good for relaxation. =)
2) By "documentation, I'll assume you mean anecdotal evidence. That's simply not good enough, no. I'm not saying all those who make those claims are liars or frauds ( those some are), I think they most are just honestly mistaken. As I've stated before, human beings are really pre-disposed towards self-deception and we're not as rational as we like to think. That's exactly why science is so stuffy and rigorous...to rule out human error as much as possible.
3) I'll stand by my contention that reality does, in fact, exist outside our perceptions. It's not "anything goes" by any stretch of the imagination. Think about it.. if you can't prove or disprove something to exist, then it might as well not exist. And if that's the case, of what good is it to humanity as a whole?
 
The plain truth is that, in the end, supernatural/paranormal beliefs just can't hold up against skeptical scrutiny. I'll sensibly choose science as a more reliable way of searching for truth and meaning. =)
 
Cheers,
Stella




bludemonn -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/13/2007 1:14:49 PM)

Then you have not heard of altered states of conciousness my dear you may have alot more to read, i'm fully aware of the methods of Science and thats precisely why Science can only form a very small part of the process when discuss nature, the laws of physics as far as conventional Science goes is incredibly narrow minded and tedious to say the least. You are emphatically wrong about how Telekineses etc has been disproved, if it has been disproved and therefore according to Scientists rendered untrue how do you account for the existance of it still? This is exactly what i am saying with Science, just because you cannot recreate it in a Lab dosent mean it dosent happen, all it means is Science is still a long way off discovering the mechanics of such practices. Science has a purpose yes agreed but it should never be the benchmark where everything has to be proved with, until the attitudes of conventional Science changes to accomodate new mentalities or rather ones which have been around for years we will get no further in understanding these very real phenomenas which go on to this very day.   



bludemonn -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/13/2007 1:21:32 PM)

I do agree it cannot hold up to skeptical scrutiny and nor does it have to, again if something cannot be explained then if it still happens what do we do? Just close our eyes and pretend its not happening lol thats a very silly attitude to have. Also the last point you made about if something cant or can be disproved it may aswell not exist? It's simpler than that, if something is experienced by many but conventional and slow Science cant keep up or rather explain it then it just means Science has alot more work to do, it dosent mean it dosent exist, according to you that would make us exist in the dark ages lol. Science has been proven fallible on countless occasions, it's hindered the advancement of human discovery hundreds of times just because of over inflated egos in the profession, something which still exists in todays current climate. Science when dealing with the Occult hasn't even tried to understand the reasoning behind the concept let alone mastered energies already being used to heal people legitimately, i think there is a part to play as far as Science is concerned but throwing toys out of their prams because they cant find a rational answer isn't getting anyone anywhere.



Bella1965 -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/13/2007 7:56:36 PM)

G'evening all:


To the OP. My world? You live in the same world as I do. The same laws govern it. You delude yourself to think otherwise. So far, I haven't seen you offer a single, concrete, documented piece of evidence to support your outlandish claims. Then again, I didn't expect you to. Belief and faith is  much different than verifiable facts. You can live in a dreamworld, it's your right. Frankly though, I'll stick with reality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: StellaByStarlite 
The plain truth is that, in the end, supernatural/paranormal beliefs just can't hold up against skeptical scrutiny. I'll sensibly choose science as a more reliable way of searching for truth and meaning. =)

I couldn't agree more.


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella



bearincuffs -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/13/2007 8:22:29 PM)

I'd like to also point out that in the late 50s early 60s, the Rhine Insitute came into existance to study many "supernatural phenomena" such as telekenesis, OBE, ESP, clarvoyance, and other paranormal events. Which can also be considered part of the occult. From my understanding, they take a scientific approach to prove the existence of many phenomena, using scientific methodology and under labratory conditions. Granted in many cases, they were not able to prove conclusively one way or another. Yet in many areas, they researchers were able to prove and document actual proof.



sweetnsensual -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/13/2007 8:50:44 PM)

This is just my opinion of course but I think there's two kinds of people in the world: those that believe in this kind of stuff and those that don't.  Simple as that.  Those that believe it can do their experiments and studies to find proof to convince the skeptical and the skeptical will turn around and disprove them. 

Sure, there's reality.  But sometimes you need to escape from reality and if someone wants to do so by dabbling and getting the crap scared out of them, then let them.  If they believe it's real, maybe getting scared will keep them from doing it again.  I won't lie, I'm interested in the paranormal.  I think it's interesting--God (even different forms of), the Devil, witchcraft, Wicca, demonology...  I like the stories of them, the theology.  I even like some of the Bible stories that deals with the hierarchy of heaven and hell, demons and angels, etc.  In the broadest sense, to me anyway, they're all grouped together (God, Devil etc, ghosts and other paranormal stuff).

Hehe, when bluedemon retold the story of the girl who read the lord's prayer or whatever backwards in the mirror and conjured the Devil, I was kinda tempted to try it...just to see what would happen.  But I won't...least I don't think I will try it.
Ha, even when I tried the whole "Bloody Mary" bit, my thoughts were what was creeping me out more than anything.  I think if I did recite it backwards, I'd end up scaring myself into an institution, possibly like what that girl did. 

Yeah...I'm nuts.  I was aware.



StellaByStarlite -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/14/2007 5:05:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

Then you have not heard of altered states of conciousness my dear you may have alot more to read, i'm fully aware of the methods of Science and thats precisely why Science can only form a very small part of the process when discuss nature, the laws of physics as far as conventional Science goes is incredibly narrow minded and tedious to say the least. You are emphatically wrong about how Telekineses etc has been disproved, if it has been disproved and therefore according to Scientists rendered untrue how do you account for the existance of it still? This is exactly what i am saying with Science, just because you cannot recreate it in a Lab dosent mean it dosent happen, all it means is Science is still a long way off discovering the mechanics of such practices. Science has a purpose yes agreed but it should never be the benchmark where everything has to be proved with, until the attitudes of conventional Science changes to accomodate new mentalities or rather ones which have been around for years we will get no further in understanding these very real phenomenas which go on to this very day.   


1) Altered states of conciousness do not equal the existence of magic. That's a false conclusion.
2) Telekineses has not been proven to exist except in the imaginations of very gullible people. Ever hear of James Randi? He has a standing offer of $1,000,000 of his own money to anybody who can prove the existence of psychic powers. So far, nobody has collected.
3) Once again, you completely fail to grasp how scientific inquiry works. It's always changing. It's very fluid and self-correcting. These "phenomena" you mention .. you know, the stuff that has been around for millenia... have contributed absolutely nothing. If magic is so prevalent and "real", then why couldn't it be examined? Are you saying that the SAME process that has discovered
~ultraviolet waves
~ bacteria
~ jet propulsion
~ computers
have just failed to discover the VERY basics and mechanics of magic? C'mon... it's been thousands of years... magicians and demonologists can't collectively get together and give us answers?
3) These mentalities aren't new by any means. If I have to be blunt, at their base level they're called "superstititions" and " wishful thinking".
 
 
Stella



StellaByStarlite -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/14/2007 5:37:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

I do agree it cannot hold up to skeptical scrutiny and nor does it have to, again if something cannot be explained then if it still happens what do we do? Just close our eyes and pretend its not happening lol thats a very silly attitude to have. Also the last point you made about if something cant or can be disproved it may aswell not exist? It's simpler than that, if something is experienced by many but conventional and slow Science cant keep up or rather explain it then it just means Science has alot more work to do, it dosent mean it dosent exist, according to you that would make us exist in the dark ages lol. Science has been proven fallible on countless occasions, it's hindered the advancement of human discovery hundreds of times just because of over inflated egos in the profession, something which still exists in todays current climate. Science when dealing with the Occult hasn't even tried to understand the reasoning behind the concept let alone mastered energies already being used to heal people legitimately, i think there is a part to play as far as Science is concerned but throwing toys out of their prams because they cant find a rational answer isn't getting anyone anywhere.


1) If something is unexplained, then it's just... unexplained. I have no problems with uncertainty. Isn't slapping some paranormal label on it just as silly?
2) Oh, yes.. science has a ton of work to do. Exploring the paranormal isn't one of them, because it's already been exposed as false. The scientific community will EAGERLY grab any opportunity to discover any sort of real magic or whatever, trust me.
  Hey, scientists are as prone to ego as any other human being.
I never EVER said it was infallible or imperfect. But if you're going to make such a grand statement as " science has hindered the progress of humanity", I'd like to see examples.
  Look... it goes like this: If you practioners of magic want to be taken seriously, then do the work yourself.  YOU are the ones making these claims, it's up to YOU to provide good, solid proof. Ever hear of the burden of proof?
 I mean, first you say magic shouldn't be held up to skeptical scrutiny, then you go on to say that science "hasn't kept up". Can you not see the contradiction here? One doesn't need a doctorate to figure it out.
Science: incredible, IMPORTANT discoveries and knowledge that has totally changed our world and how we look at it.
Magic: ???
 
It would seem, then, that it's magic that hasn't kept up. Did magic discover evolution? Nope. How about DNA? Nope.
 
Look, if you magicians are keeping some vital imformation, then we're all waiting for it. It seems pretty damn specious that there is a group of witches and etc that are holding all these ancient arcane secrets. No leaks after thousands of years? Not one? C'mon, now. =)
 
 
Stella
 
 
 



StellaByStarlite -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/14/2007 5:47:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bearincuffs

I'd like to also point out that in the late 50s early 60s, the Rhine Insitute came into existance to study many "supernatural phenomena" such as telekenesis, OBE, ESP, clarvoyance, and other paranormal events. Which can also be considered part of the occult. From my understanding, they take a scientific approach to prove the existence of many phenomena, using scientific methodology and under labratory conditions. Granted in many cases, they were not able to prove conclusively one way or another. Yet in many areas, they researchers were able to prove and document actual proof.



Hey, bearincuffs. =)

Hey, if they are able to prove the actual existence of physic phenomena, then I'll all for it. =)  Contrary to popular belief.. we skeptics just don't dismiss things out of hand. We just want solid evidence before believing a claim to be true. We look at things critically before making any assumptions.

I would love it if ESP were proven! LOL! But my standards of proof tend to be high, and I feel everybody's should be.

Stella



StellaByStarlite -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/14/2007 6:33:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetnsensual

This is just my opinion of course but I think there's two kinds of people in the world: those that believe in this kind of stuff and those that don't.  Simple as that.  Those that believe it can do their experiments and studies to find proof to convince the skeptical and the skeptical will turn around and disprove them. 
Hey. =)
 
I used to believe in the paranormal, lol. Until I read more about critical thinking and scientific worldview. But yeah, you're right.... it looks like people WANT to believe in that stuff. It fills some emotional need for certainty. But in science, nothing really is certain, believe it or not. Even the definition of fact: knowledge that has been confirmed to such an extent that it would be reasonable to provide provisional agreement.


Sure, there's reality.  But sometimes you need to escape from reality and if someone wants to do so by dabbling and getting the crap scared out of them, then let them.  If they believe it's real, maybe getting scared will keep them from doing it again.  I won't lie, I'm interested in the paranormal.  I think it's interesting--God (even different forms of), the Devil, witchcraft, Wicca, demonology...  I like the stories of them, the theology.  I even like some of the Bible stories that deals with the hierarchy of heaven and hell, demons and angels, etc.  In the broadest sense, to me anyway, they're all grouped together (God, Devil etc, ghosts and other paranormal stuff).
  Nothing wrong with escapism... hell, I love horror novels. =) The problem starts when a society's reasoning faculty breaks down and we are as a whole unable to distinguish between fantasy and reality. Look at all the occult scam artists out there. Look at what mass religious superstition has done in the world today. On a smaller scale... people are looking at mysticism and the occult to answer questions or give false information. They are depriving themselves of real awe, real wonders, by discarding science.
  I will state it again, with bells on: science is FAR from perfect. It has made mistakes. But in the end, it DOES provide more to us then the paranormal ever has. It has a very nifty self-correcting system, it changes paradigms, it examines. All the paranormal does is shroud things in a cloak of mystery or needlessly scare the shit out of people. Do we really want to sink back into a time where we dismember animals to tell the future or nervously clutch amulets for protection?

Hehe, when bluedemon retold the story of the girl who read the lord's prayer or whatever backwards in the mirror and conjured the Devil, I was kinda tempted to try it...just to see what would happen.  But I won't...least I don't think I will try it.
Ha, even when I tried the whole "Bloody Mary" bit, my thoughts were what was creeping me out more than anything.  I think if I did recite it backwards, I'd end up scaring myself into an institution, possibly like what that girl did. 
Oh, go ahead.. try it. =)  Face your fears, lol. I remember, as a teenager.. I was ALWAYS the intrepid one to do the damn Ouija board, to explore the cemetary, yes, to do Bloody Mary! It was deliciously scary, and my imagination conjured up a whole bunch of stuff, haha! And yet, here I am, alive and well.
 
It's a blast to have imagination, to get creeped out, to read and let your brain soar. Knowledge and information are always good to have. But it's also good to not have your mind so open, your brains fall out. ;)
 
 
Cheers,
Stella

Yeah...I'm nuts.  I was aware.



bearincuffs -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/14/2007 7:17:03 AM)

Greetings Stella

In many ways, I think in the same manner where I wouild love to see concete proof myself. In some areas I find I am also skeptical and it will take much convincing otherwise to make me a believer. I did not mean to imply you or all skeptics are closed minded, I was merely attempting to express from a different point of view! I believe that we all have to retain some measure of skeptisim as it fuels our drive to either prove or disprove claims of this nature. Though many things I do belive in their existence, I still remain skeptical on other phenomena. In general, I try to keep an open mind as much as possible. Yes, people should be critical and question, this is how we learn more about this reality.

It is my thought that in many instances, unexplained phenonena is labelled paranormal because its existence hasn't yet been proved or disproved. It is human nature to want and need some sort of a belief system in our psyche. And for many people, fthe different facets of mystcism does give answers where other idealologies failed and the reverse is also true. And yet, out of mysticism, science was born and evolved evolved into its own separate entity, so to speak. (mean science in the general sense, not a specific area of science). All one has to do is look at the art of alchemy, if the ancient alchemists weren't driven to discover the philosopher's stone, then I don't believe the science of chemistry would be as advanced as it is in this modern day. I liken the alchemists to be the forerunner to what we label chemists today. Like now, alchemists combined various elements and solutions and such in hundreds of combinations with hopes of producing the desired result. They too recorded their experimenting, created formulas and recipies used,. Yet what sets them apart is they also combined mystical elements in their workings.

I do have to say that you do pose very good and thought provoking arguements and I do quite enjoy hearing your point of view!



StellaByStarlite -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/14/2007 8:30:37 AM)

Hey, bearincuffs. =)

Thank you for the compliment. =)

I do agree that there are many unexplained realms that deserve consideration. But many, if not most, people can't tell the difference between legitimate science and pseudoscience, and that's a problem.

Alchemy and astrology were the progenitors of modern chemistry and astronomy. =) It's reasonable to assume that maybe without those two practices, the two branches of science today would be lacking considerably. But in true scientific fashion, certain elements of the two were tested and discarded. And the knowledge was kept for our benefit. A very god example of science's self-correcting system. False premises are left behind, reliable information is kept.

But I'm glad you brought up the fact that no.. science doesn't answer everything. It doesn't satisfy certain needs that can be called spiritual for some people. It can't tell us what goes on after death, either. But the cool thing is... in a scientific worldview, it's perfectly acceptable to admit you don't know! In fact, mysteries ( of which there are many in all fields) are a great opportunity to experiment and test. When people are quick to slap the paranormal label on the unexplained, then they are attempting to explain it, and selling themselves short.

I do firmly believe that critical thinking as a skill should be taught and encouraged. All ideas should be subject to challenge, because as you said.. that's how we learn. =) Even being proved wrong is a positive, because then we're free to move on to something else. =)

Science gives real hope. It inspires awe and humility and gives us so much. It's saddening to see it disregarded as
"just another way of knowing". To date.. it's the only way of knowing about our world. Demons, witchcraft... they don't hold a proverbial candle. =)


Cheers,
Stella



bearincuffs -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/14/2007 9:42:52 AM)

Yes science doesn't have all the answers but neither does mysticism. Each holds many answers and I do believe that by melding the two, the end result will yeild more answers as opposed to satnding separate. This is my way of viewing things "outside the box!"

Even though science may/may not be awe inspiring, the realm of mystics and the occult can be just as awe inspiring in itself. For many people this is the main "attraction" since the unexplained is a foreign experience, our natural curiosity and need to explore drives us to delve deeper and deeper into it. I liken this as a compulsion to explore what isn't considered natural to try to satisfy an insatiable curiosity of the unknown and this also applies to people in the scientific world but in a different way.



bludemonn -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/14/2007 10:15:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bella1965

G'evening all:


To the OP. My world? You live in the same world as I do. The same laws govern it. You delude yourself to think otherwise. So far, I haven't seen you offer a single, concrete, documented piece of evidence to support your outlandish claims. Then again, I didn't expect you to. Belief and faith is  much different than verifiable facts. You can live in a dreamworld, it's your right. Frankly though, I'll stick with reality.

quote:

ORIGINAL: StellaByStarlite 
The plain truth is that, in the end, supernatural/paranormal beliefs just can't hold up against skeptical scrutiny. I'll sensibly choose science as a more reliable way of searching for truth and meaning. =)

I couldn't agree more.


Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella


Bella can i just say something, first of all the original post IS the topic and it would be incredibly silly to deny that people do not play with the VERY REAL Occult, if you wish to believe in something then fair enough it only applies to YOU, you cannot and should never force your own views on another just because it sits well with you and if you do then you have much to understand about nature. 

As for substantiating everything i write that would be childish, i see this done an awful lot on here, what does that achieve? if i can quote from a book then it makes this a fact lol? The entire purpose of this post wasn't was not to start a game of 'if you can quote then you are right' that is a stupid way to behave, you would have to be painfully ignorant to say that the Occult isnt practiced around the world and has been since the beginning of time and i am sorry but i dont have several hours to write in thousands and thousands of entries to fortify what im saying, im not here to teach you that is for your own self to discover.

If you live in the same world as me then how come we differ so much? Are you saying one of us must be wrong? Again that is a childish mindset, well to me it is anyway. You and i don't think the same way which is a problem for you not me, i only wish to know of instances where people who dont even comprehend different ways but still try to play with them, the Occult is as much psychological as it is natural, true different people have different words for it and i never said that people who didnt believe it were WRONG, if you choose to believe in something then fair enough your decision. I understand a hell of alot and there is soooo much more recorded in history and sometimes lost in wars that hold practicves that we still use today, i understand you are frustrated because you want me to quote you names and dates but what does that achieve? I read books too but i dont feel i have to quote and even if i did who is to say the author is 'right'?

The start of this debate stemmed from the Science aspect, yes Science is used in the paranormal very frequently today but again it only serves as a measuring tool, how can you document and begin experiments when you cant even understand what happens?

To end this now i must state the purpose of this post is NOT to determine right or wrong, if thats what you expect and you wish to find evidence then you never ever will. This is for everyone, and there are alot of people even skeptics who have been subjected or known people who have had unexplainable experiences, to relate their stories and even tell us about incredibly stupid practices. Whether YOU believe in it or not is DOES go on, FACT! Their are rituals dating back as far as we can remember of divination, sacrifice and worship and no matter how much you try to debate if its real or not it will always go on, their are ways to invoke, evoke and there are ways to banish and when people play around then things happen, if you don't have time for these happenings then simply post elsewhere but this post isn't called 'do you believe in the paranormal yes or no'   



bludemonn -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/14/2007 10:34:14 AM)

Stella do you know many magicians? Are you aware of chaos magic and quantum physics? It would be quite silly to say to someone 'altered states of mind do not constitute magic this is a false statement' when you cant even tell me what Magic is? What do you see as Magic?

So you have never had an out of body experience? You have never heard of N.D.E.'s (near death experience) who have been tested under Scientific conditions and all show states of extra brainwave activity relating to occurances which are termed 'paranormal' because everyday people cant display these properties? Let me say to you if you do an experiment involving 100 N.D.E. people and 80% display extra qualities including precognition and premonition as opposed to 100 people who have NOT had N.D.E. and are displaying 5% qualities what does that mean in test data? Scientists run these tests regularly and even though they KNOW it happens there is no way to measure it again a failing of Science in that if you can't measure it you simply refused it as 'real'.

You really really underestimate how i see Science, would it help if i told you i had a degree in physics? or psychology? Does it make me more credible? OFCOURSE IT DOESNT and those who actually think that way are exactly the reason Science has a cancerous problem, credibility dosent define reality it never did and never will. Science is very interesting and it does have place in todays world but there are areas it dosent recognise because of its 'law's.

Bella stated that we are in the same world because of the laws which govern it, tell that to the millions of everyday people who achieve things and go places we simply refuse to believe in, they are most certainly NOT in the same world, can you crack glass or make something move using your mind? NO? neither can i, does it mean it dosent exist...NO! If it didnt exist then why are there soooooo many different eye witness accounts?

Perhaps modern Psychiatry and Psychology are put here to discredit these witnesses just like the the Christian church would write such sadistic doctrines such as the Malleus Maleficarum written in the 15th century by order of the Inquisition to actually TELL Witch hunters how to spot Witches! They would be tutored in how to ask specific questions in order to get the responses they wanted and thus damn them to death.       

I find it quite hypocritical of you to one minute ask me for evidence to support a widely believed phenomenon (use the internet its full of 'accounts'even written by Doctors!) when you simply say 'altered states do not constitue Magic', says who? Perhaps this is where the problem lies, your definition of Magic?  



bludemonn -> RE: Idiocy when dealing with the Occult (3/14/2007 10:38:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bearincuffs

Yes science doesn't have all the answers but neither does mysticism. Each holds many answers and I do believe that by melding the two, the end result will yeild more answers as opposed to satnding separate. This is my way of viewing things "outside the box!"

Even though science may/may not be awe inspiring, the realm of mystics and the occult can be just as awe inspiring in itself. For many people this is the main "attraction" since the unexplained is a foreign experience, our natural curiosity and need to explore drives us to delve deeper and deeper into it. I liken this as a compulsion to explore what isn't considered natural to try to satisfy an insatiable curiosity of the unknown and this also applies to people in the scientific world but in a different way.



Good point bear, and this is the ingredient we all have when it comes to practising any form of rituals whether Christian or Occult, curiosity, the ability to be open and to allow yourself to travel into an altered state at will.

This takes a lifetime to achieve and because some people say  a few words and nothing hapens they seem to think it dosent exist, good for them but they shouldnt try to discount other peoples experinces based on their inability to grasp a concept.  



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