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Consensual Non-consent - 3/7/2007 6:35:13 AM

sugarcoatedscamp

Posts: 120
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Status: offline

A recent thread about how to "take down your slave" got me thinking. In a situation where the scene is consensual non-consent (e.g. abduction fantasy, rape fantasy, etc.), what techniques can the top use to overpower the struggling bottom? I've wondered about this quite a bit, because I'm not very big, and it's not uncommon for someone to be physically stronger than I am.

_____________________________

Consent means never having to say, "I'm sorry."
If beating you is wrong, I don't wanna be right.
I got an A+ in online bdsm.
You can call me Master now!

Post #: 1

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/7/2007 7:19:35 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Surprise is good- you can take a self defense course and learn a lot of good ways to surprise someone and get the upper hand on them. For me, it's all about leverage and keeping my hands free.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to sugarcoatedscamp)

Post #: 2

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/7/2007 7:43:55 AM

sugarcoatedscamp

Posts: 120
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Status: offline

That's a good idea... I may look into taking a class like that this spring. Thanks for the reply!

_____________________________

Consent means never having to say, "I'm sorry."
If beating you is wrong, I don't wanna be right.
I got an A+ in online bdsm.
You can call me Master now!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 3

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/7/2007 7:57:04 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline

Advice from a Former Marine here. Understand, this is in the spirit of 'consensuality' and could land you serious prison time outside of this. My suggestions will be a bit watered down; I already feel like I'm offering bomb making advice in a terrorist forum as is. The advice I'm giving is aimed at a woman attempting to subdue a larger, stronger man.

1) Be confident. If you're really expecting to take complete physical control of a person, you darn well need to know you can; if you can't imagine being in control, how can he imagine it?

1) Have a plan. Planning to 'abduct' someone larger and stronger than you are will fail miserably if you think you're just going to walk up and ask him nicely to tie his wrists while you file your nails. Run through the plan two or three times, and ask 'what if?' questions, like 'what if he refuses?'

3) Take control. This would mean a weapon on hand to 'encourage' him to obey your requests. A stun gun is an excellent choice, assuming you are 100% sure that your victim has no medical conditions that preclude it. A knife or starter pistol (i.e. something that isn't real) are also fine. You're playing into their fantasy here, so a show of force will be all that's necessary initially as long as you're holding the weapon in a serious fashion. We've all laughed at the scared co-ed crying as she tries to hold a kitchen knife up; don't look like her. If you can come up behind your victim and put the knife to his throat or his crotch; you'll probably find immediate compliance (assuming you have discussed this beforhand!)

4) Keep Control. Once you have assumed control of the situation, proceed to bondage as quickly as possible. This isn't for 'play' value, but rather a means of maintaining control without having to constantly hold a weapon. Duct tape is an excellent start; it's cheap, disposable, and nearly impossible to get out of. Using the weapon as a threat, you can have him even start to bind his own wrists. Once he loses use of his hands, you will find him even more complient. Using the knife or starter pistol as a coercive measure, use the duct tape on his ankles. It'll prevent him from running, but he can still 'hop' anywhere you wish him to go. I'd use the tape to gag as well, it enforces the sense that he has lost control. This is the essential part; knowing that he has lost control will prevent any future problems. Once he is sufficiantly restrained, it won't matter how much he struggles.

Above all, the real key isn't just to 'appear' to have control; it's to demonstrate to your victim that you actually have it. Once he's in sufficiant bondage, I would encourage him to struggle and fight all he wants; it would only reinforce how hopeless his situation is.

Have fun!

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 4

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/7/2007 8:14:36 AM

allofmee

Posts: 26
Status: offline

I really don't think the phrase means that you should beat the crap out of each other

Self defense courses are for REAL self defense. Like: do you want to jab each other in the eye? Kick him in the groin? Put each other in the hospital? C'mon!

Seems like some older ideas are misunderstood.

Consentual non consent means ( or did mean at one time) to agree to a concept of ' to consent once to that Dominant on an act - is to allow that consent to be ongoing' without the Dominant to be asking if said act is OK every single time.

Example. She/He asks if caning is OK with slave. Slave says yes. They have agreed to that if yes - without another discussion to withdraw that consent - caning will remain OK, as Dominant desires.

It is so that the Dominant doesn't have to plead and beg every little time. A yes, is a yes... until a NO, or safeword is given, or dynamic dissolved.

Some of you should know better......

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 5

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/7/2007 8:16:07 AM

sugarcoatedscamp

Posts: 120
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Status: offline

My 'consensual victim' would most likely be female, but just the same, I wanted to say THANK YOU for some actual techniques and ideas. I'm with you on the duct tape thing... I keep some on hand all the time, and have a separate roll that lives in my car (handy-dandy cup holder). Zip ties, too.

I'd also be interested to hear some ideas that don't involve weapons (real or prop), for those who are into force fantasy but have issue with guns, knives, etc. I personally LOVE knifeplay; that doesn't mean every submissive in the world is begging to bottom for it.

A second, related question for those who have engaged in this type of scene... how much pre-negotiation was there, and to what detail were the goings-on planned/discussed? The element of surprise is important here, in my opinion, so there has to be some room for that... does the top tell the bottom exactly step-by-step how it's going to go, or is it more of a 'these are the tools which I will have at my disposal and some ways in which I might use them' sort of thing?

_____________________________

Consent means never having to say, "I'm sorry."
If beating you is wrong, I don't wanna be right.
I got an A+ in online bdsm.
You can call me Master now!

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 6

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/7/2007 8:23:48 AM

allofmee

Posts: 26
Status: offline

sugarcoatedscamp:

You are asking for ways to subdue your slave, to control. It is the wording seems mixed up.

Be careful. Yeah: a bigger girl could kick your ass right back.

Take care

(in reply to sugarcoatedscamp)

Post #: 7

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/7/2007 8:49:26 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: allofmee
I really don't think the phrase means that you should beat the crap out of each other

Self defense courses are for REAL self defense. Like: do you want to jab each other in the eye? Kick him in the groin? Put each other in the hospital? C'mon!

You haven't seen some of the scenes I've done/seen others do.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to allofmee)

Post #: 8

RE: Consensual non-consent - 3/7/2007 8:53:18 AM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sugarcoatedscamp

A recent thread about how to "take down your slave" got me thinking. In a situation where the scene is consensual non-consent (e.g. abduction fantasy, rape fantasy, etc.), what techniques can the top use to overpower the struggling bottom? I've wondered about this quite a bit, because I'm not very big, and it's not uncommon for someone to be physically stronger than I am.

I followed this post's subject line, assuming it was inspired to wade through some heavy questions about what appears to be the philosophical paradoxes of consensual slavery and the want to be forced. Instead, it seems you're asking about techniques to overpower someone in a "scene." Be that as it may, I can't help but consider the mind as ultimately more important than muscle. One need only consider the petite woman who with a simple look can bring a man twice her size to his knees. While this illustration does not speak at all about the inner gears of the machine spoken of in your subject line, it does perhaps point toward where it's locus resides.

(in reply to sugarcoatedscamp)

Post #: 9

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/7/2007 9:00:57 AM

elderrook

Posts: 93
Joined: 11/29/2006
Status: offline

I recently discovered a great way to let my Mistress have the upper hand in our play. She had me wear a corset. Okay, actually, she had me wear two of them. Nothing like a little overkill...

For the record, neither of us are into cross dressing. But the restriction of a corset is a plus for us. And man, does it ever restrict!

If you're playing with a female, all you'd have to do is play 'dress-up' before you take control.

Believe me, wearing one will severely limit your ability to resist. I outweigh my Mistress by quite a bit, have an inch or two on her, and considerably more muscle. I had no chance against her in the corsets and I darn well knew it, too.

(in reply to allofmee)

Post #: 10

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/8/2007 12:57:47 PM

sugarcoatedscamp

Posts: 120
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Status: offline

I specificially asked about force fantasies like abduction and rape in the OP... The answers I received from LA and Stephann were very much to the point. Sure, "consensual non-consent" can be used to refer to the consent until it's taken away type of situation, but any force fantasy is going to qualify as well, just based on the words themselves.

_____________________________

Consent means never having to say, "I'm sorry."
If beating you is wrong, I don't wanna be right.
I got an A+ in online bdsm.
You can call me Master now!

(in reply to allofmee)

Post #: 11

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/8/2007 1:50:51 PM

GrizzlyBear

Posts: 278
Joined: 3/26/2004
From: Missoula Montana
Status: offline

I assume you have for some reason not wanted to negotiate very measured resistance. In that case... you need something to offset their advantage of size and strength. My best suggestion is to have some help, say two or three big strong guys. Besides, once you have your victim immobilized, you will need the help to move him. The stun gun/taser is also a good idea for force multiplication. If the bottom is larger and stronger than you, and intends to actively resist, and you do not have martial arts skills, you could be in trouble otherwise.

You could begin with them at some kind of disadvantage, already asleep perhaps, or naked. (I will never again try a takedown scene with a bottom who is wearing boots!) You need to get them face down, quickly, with your weight on them.

Effective bondage must be applied as soon as possible. Duct tape is good, if you don't mind some skin coming off when it is removed. Gaffers tape is better. Handcuffs (real police model) are my preference. Pressure points applied with a small baton (kubotan) can be very effective persuader to hold still. Another trick is to have a pre-tied Mexican Handcuff Knot or two in your pocket. Just the thing for tying the feet to the hands.

Forget all about chloroform. It is a popular part of many abduction fantasies but way too toxic and dangerous to actually use.

Forget also about "knocking them out". There is no technique that will cause unconsciousness that does not carry potential deadly consequences. That blackjack or karate chop only works in the movies. In real life, lots that are hit hard enough to go down won't ever get up.

If you plan to rely on intimidation for compliance, then get a prop gun. They are metal reproductions of real guns, cost around $100 and look and feel exactly like the real thing, but cannot be made to fire. A real gun must be considered to always be loaded, and knives are always loaded too! Even a fairly dull knife can cause a fatal injury if fallen on in a struggle, or taken away from you. Save the knife play for when they are already bound.

_____________________________

GrizzlyBear

"Come to the edge," he said.
They said, "We are afraid."
"Come to the edge," he said.
They came. He pushed them. And they flew.
~Guillaume Apollinaire

(in reply to sugarcoatedscamp)

Post #: 12

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/8/2007 5:19:02 PM

MsParados

Posts: 183
Joined: 3/1/2007
Status: offline

I love consensual non consent play but I suck at playing the unwilling victum, my "No Stop please don't" end up getting mixed around to "NO please don't stop!" lol
Nothing says loven like cold steel pressed against your throat and a soft whisper in the ear. for safety sake press the dull side against the flesh. or drugs... valium, xanax.

(in reply to GrizzlyBear)

Post #: 13

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/8/2007 5:28:58 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sugarcoatedscamp

A recent thread about how to "take down your slave" got me thinking. In a situation where the scene is consensual non-consent (e.g. abduction fantasy, rape fantasy, etc.), what techniques can the top use to overpower the struggling bottom? I've wondered about this quite a bit, because I'm not very big, and it's not uncommon for someone to be physically stronger than I am.

I have studied a lot of different martial arts, sugarcoatedscamp. A "self defense" course will probably teach you methods (like punching the throat) which are difficult to perform under adrenalin and not overly safe, sane, or consensual in the lifestyle. The sorts of techniques which I have found that transfer over into our lifestyle would be ones from styles that involve throwing and grappling.

Arts like Karate, Tae Kwon Do, etc., generally involve kicking and punching and sweeping. Kick and punch somebody hard and they get damaged. Sweep somebody who doesnt know how to fall correctly and they break when they hit the ground.

I would recommend the following...

Aikido or Judo will give you the ability to utilize a kineasthetic understanding of gravity and leverage to throw down your opponent. I have used it at times in play. I would caution you that you will need to practice throwing people a lot before you can throw a partner (that doesnt know how to be thrown) without damaging them. Gravity, its not just a good idea, its the law.

Ground fighting techniques which transfer over come from arts like jiu jutsu, certain aikido styles, etc. These will teach you how to use leverage during ground fighting. Training in them will also teach you how to use the techniques without ripping their arm out of the socket, etc.

Enjoy!

Sinergy

p.s. I once gave a class at a play party teaching people how to manipulate pressure points for pain and amusement.

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to sugarcoatedscamp)

Post #: 14

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/8/2007 5:41:09 PM

SilverShadows

Posts: 558
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline

I have enlisted help when doing this. I also make sure I know the tactical situation. Is there a gun or other lethal devices around. Is someone else likely to jump in by mistake etc. Also how violent does the other person non-concentually concent to. That can vary. It can be anywhere from pretty mild to take a billy club to me, but don't break anything.

_____________________________

The Countess

Το αίμα είναι η ζωή
Cruor est Vita
Sînge is art.hot. Viaţă
Vér van a Élet

Come Kiss the Guillotine
Come Taste the Gasoline

(in reply to sugarcoatedscamp)

Post #: 15

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 3/9/2007 8:36:50 AM

sugarcoatedscamp

Posts: 120
Joined: 5/5/2006
From: Fort Wayne, IN
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrizzlyBear

I assume you have for some reason not wanted to negotiate very measured resistance. In that case... you need something to offset their advantage of size and strength. My best suggestion is to have some help, say two or three big strong guys. Besides, once you have your victim immobilized, you will need the help to move him. The stun gun/taser is also a good idea for force multiplication. If the bottom is larger and stronger than you, and intends to actively resist, and you do not have martial arts skills, you could be in trouble otherwise.

Well, my sexuality dictates that my victim is likely to be female and not a "big strong man" that I have to overpower... I'm just looking for ways to keep the upper hand and not get thrown off guard.

quote:

You could begin with them at some kind of disadvantage, already asleep perhaps, or naked. (I will never again try a takedown scene with a bottom who is wearing boots!) You need to get them face down, quickly, with your weight on them.

good idea, catching them when they're already in a somewhat vulnerable state...

quote:

Effective bondage must be applied as soon as possible. Duct tape is good, if you don't mind some skin coming off when it is removed. Gaffers tape is better. Handcuffs (real police model) are my preference. Pressure points applied with a small baton (kubotan) can be very effective persuader to hold still. Another trick is to have a pre-tied Mexican Handcuff Knot or two in your pocket. Just the thing for tying the feet to the hands.

Any idea where I can get gaffers tape?

quote:

Forget all about chloroform. It is a popular part of many abduction fantasies but way too toxic and dangerous to actually use.

Forget also about "knocking them out". There is no technique that will cause unconsciousness that does not carry potential deadly consequences. That blackjack or karate chop only works in the movies. In real life, lots that are hit hard enough to go down won't ever get up.

No kidding. I'm not messing with things that could kill my partner... this is supposed to be 'fun' not deadly.

quote:

If you plan to rely on intimidation for compliance, then get a prop gun. They are metal reproductions of real guns, cost around $100 and look and feel exactly like the real thing, but cannot be made to fire. A real gun must be considered to always be loaded, and knives are always loaded too! Even a fairly dull knife can cause a fatal injury if fallen on in a struggle, or taken away from you. Save the knife play for when they are already bound.

I figure the knife is better saved for later, too. I don't want to hurt myself, or my partner; in the heat of the struggle, sharp points are a bad idea.

The basic question I guess I'm asking is what techniques can be used to get a partner prone before they know what hit them, and then keep them that way long enough to get them bound. I wish I knew a kink-friendly cop...

_____________________________

Consent means never having to say, "I'm sorry."
If beating you is wrong, I don't wanna be right.
I got an A+ in online bdsm.
You can call me Master now!

(in reply to GrizzlyBear)

Post #: 16

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