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A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 9:24:39 AM

Shylahgirl

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I have read through a lot of profile and posts on this web sight.

I have seen that many different people have many different opinions on what terms like slave/submissive or Master/Dom mean.

I have also noticed that a lot of peop0le use the terms Dom and sub to indicate what they prefer as far as playing in a scene.

In the Salt Lake City BDSM community, of which I am an active member and it is the only BDSM community I have ever really known, when we speak of what we prefer to do in a scene we use the terms Top and Bottom. Dom/Domme and Sub/Slave are reserved for those in a D/s relationship or those seeking a D/s relationship.

Which brings me to my question, why do some who would never want to do D/s clame to be a Dom/Master or a sub/slave?

Why are the terms Top and Bottom used so rarely in profiles or on posts to for self identification of those who have no interest in D/s?

My understanding of the terms:

Top= One who inflicts or is served in a scene. (Could be Dom or sub in daily life)
Bottom= One who is infected upon or serves in a scene. (Could be Dom or sub in daily life)

Dom/Domme/Master/Mistress= One who makes the power exchange dynamic their lifestyle, is honored by another with that other’s service and in involved or is looking for a D/s relationship.
Sub/Slave= One who makes the power exchange dynamic their lifestyle, honors another by choosing to serve them and is involved or is seeking a D/s relationship.

Shylah

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 9:35:42 AM

MasterFireMaam

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From: Charleston, WV
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Shylah,

I share your school of thought, but many don't. For whatever reasons, Dom and Master have become synonomous with Top and Sadist...and vice verse. What we do does not always define who we are. Also, people tend to use titles for roleplay as well as for self identification. So, one person using Master might mean they're the Top that night for rough sex and another person using Master might have a spiritual calling to be such, no matter if they Top or bottom.

Master Fire

_____________________________

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(in reply to Shylahgirl)

Post #: 2

RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 9:38:51 AM

DominaSmartass

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I agree with your definitions. I also have heard it put like this: Top/bottom refers to the physical realm; Dom/sub refers to the mental; Master/slave refers to the spiritual. Either way, I think collarme is lacking in one large area by not allowing us to choose the terms top/bottom in our profiles. Going even further, I think it would be great if CM let us choose multiple identities and not just one. I would be a dominant, sadistic, top who is also a masochistic bottom sometimes.

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 9:40:24 AM

toservez

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During my search seeing many dominant profiles as well as looking at many submissive profiles that an extremely high percentage of them are looking for relationships that the power exchange falls much more outside of kinky bedroom play which would not be a top/bottom relationship.

Also my experience both in cyber and local communities do not discount the “cool” factor. Despite these terms that are thrown about for a foundation of understanding another person and not totally define a person, many within the lifestyle judge or act themselves as there is some coolness hierarchy of tops/bottoms being less cooler them D/s who are less cooler then M/s people.

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 9:40:24 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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Well usually Ds is used to denote a position within a relationship, and while a person may technically be 'bottoming' in a scene, that's not the overall orientation they identify with- one who primarily plays around as a bottom.

As well, there really is a stigma against people who "just play" and if they aren't serious about the relationship dynamics, so they avoid the stigma by trying to fit into other places.

And, as always, we all decide what works for us in the end anyways and have to explain once you get beyond generalities. I can't tell you the number of quizzical looks I got when I referred to myself as a "slave top."

Labels only tend to matter when you're having a discussion about labels.

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 10:09:01 AM

SimplyMichael

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Top and bottom are not as cool sounding as slave and master...

Think about what you are doing. Your community has an agreed upon range of definitions which is great. However, now you are comming here and wanting to place value on words.

When you say "claim" to be a master you are saying that they should have a lesser label and that master is higher. You may not hear that but many do. I don't care what label someone choses, how hard or softly they play, or how fancy their ropework or flogging is. I care about how they treat others and those are the only value labels I put on people.

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 10:15:27 AM

Shylahgirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Top and bottom are not as cool sounding as slave and master...

Think about what you are doing. Your community has an agreed upon range of definitions which is great. However, now you are comming here and wanting to place value on words.

I'm just asking a question that has been floating around in my head and wanting to learn what others outside of my comunity think.

Words are important to me because it is how humans comunicate in casual situations.

I'm not saying my deffiniotions are right or wrong, I'm just saying that with my background I was confused at frist and am still wondering about peoples choise of words.

Choice of words tells me alot about the person and I just want to see if my imnpressions are accuret.

Shylah

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 10:16:24 AM

Mysti

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass
Either way, I think collarme is lacking in one large area by not allowing us to choose the terms top/bottom in our profiles.

I couldnt agree with this more. To take it a step further, I have no interest in D/s or M/s, I'm a fetishist who prefers to Top, though bottoming every so often gets me hot.
I really think the profile selections could use some revamping.

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 10:31:37 AM

SimplyMichael

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When I say "value" in relation to words I don't mean whether or not you think they are important. I love words and writing. What I mean is you rank them by importance, some are better or bigger than others.

I know people who consider themselves Tops who would put most self appointed masters to shame. God knows we all know slaves who we believe really wear the pants in the relationship.

Labels are in many ways the trees in the BDSM forest. Focus on them and you lose sight of the big picture.

Take an act of dominance and rank it for me as an example. Which is more extreme, cutting a design into someones back with a knife or getting a woman to drop her eyes? Truth is you have no way of knowing. If the bloodplay/marking is done on someone with 10 other marks from 5 other owners, it isn't a big deal to do another one. Making a well known female domme to do ANY sort of submissive act in public in front of her peers is a HUGE thing.

In general two groups of people worry about labels. People who are new to the scene or who are in small groups and people who need to feel better about what they do and use labels to build themselves up and put others down.

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 3/7/2007 10:32:11 AM >

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 10:52:15 AM

BeachMystress

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From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass
Top/bottom refers to the physical realm; Dom/sub refers to the mental; Master/slave refers to the spiritual.

I really like that. Thank you for posting it!

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Post #: 10

RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 10:57:41 AM

MasterFireMaam

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From: Charleston, WV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeachMystress

quote:

ORIGINAL: DominaSmartass
Top/bottom refers to the physical realm; Dom/sub refers to the mental; Master/slave refers to the spiritual.

I really like that. Thank you for posting it!

I first heard those definitions, as I'm sure DS did as well, from Master Steve Sampson. Lovely man. If you ever had a chance to hear him talk, do!

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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Ms Relationship Books
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BDSM How-To Books

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Post #: 11

RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 11:04:19 AM

Shylahgirl

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Joined: 8/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
In general two groups of people worry about labels. People who are new to the scene or who are in small groups and people who need to feel better about what they do and use labels to build themselves up and put others down.

I feel that saying that you are inturn labeling people.

I also feel that in saying that you are asuming that labeles mean that much to me. I do not think that labels mean anything when it comes to "is this person safe? Do they know what they are doing?"

I posted this quest not to critisize anyone for what they choose to call them selves, but to gain understanding.

Regardless weather or not people need labels to make them selves feel good and others feel worse people will still use labeles and I want to understand why and what those labels mean to that person..

And on a personal note, I do not conciter any of these labels to be any better or worse then any of the others. I am a submissive as my life style choice, a switch when I play... I have done some Professional dominatrixing and have domanated women for short periods of time. I have my prefernces and I make them know when people ask me "are you a Dom or sub?"

None of these labels change how I feel about my self or how I interact woth other people who may or may not choose to use them. I treat an identfied sub the same as I would treat a bottom and I treat a Dom the same at I would treat a Top... and if they have changed their prefrence the next day I still treat them as I would any other humanbeing.

Shylah

< Message edited by Shylahgirl -- 3/7/2007 11:06:31 AM >

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 11:07:01 AM

elderrook

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As to why some referr to themselves as a Dom or Domme or a slave when they're really only a top or bottom, I can point to my own experience. Or lack thereof.

Only recently was someone kind enough to explain the generally held definitions of the words top, bottom, Dom, slave, submissive and even owner to me. For many years I have been interested in the scene as an outsider, and for the most part relatively ignorant of the subtleties of those who already belong.

Add to that the fact that as you pointed out, every region varies a little in terminology. It's difficult to learn the proper use of terms. I also see the desire for someone entering this world to use a term they identify with from the volumes of fiction they've no doubt read on the subject.

It's likely a matter of simply not knowing the proper terms or not fully being able to identify thier role in this society. I myself have long considered myself a submissive, and yet my actual thoughts on the subject would have made me more of a bottom. With some training under my belt from my Mistress, we're beginning to see that I might actually be a slave.

Both of us are experienced in many aspects of BDSM, and yet even still we have a hard time defining the role I am to play. Imagine how hard it must be for someone who has even less experience to base their beliefs on.

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 11:12:11 AM

SimplyMichael

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Actually, it is you who are ONLY a slave, or perhaps JUST a slave, or maybe you can't be MORE than a slave?

Doesn't feel as nice does it? Think about that before you go putting someone down as "ONLY" a top or bottom. I am sure this isn't something you mean to do but you are ranking which label is better rather than simply saying each is different.

(in reply to elderrook)

Post #: 14

RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 11:18:52 AM

Shylahgirl

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Joined: 8/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Actually, it is you who are ONLY a slave, or perhaps JUST a slave, or maybe you can't be MORE than a slave?

Doesn't feel as nice does it? Think about that before you go putting someone down as "ONLY" a top or bottom. I am sure this isn't something you mean to do but you are ranking which label is better rather than simply saying each is different.

I am wondering why you seem to be getting so combative over me posting this question?

Yes I may have used the wrong word to discribe something, but you seem to be wanting to make it an issue. I have tryed to explain my view as one of exceptence and you seem determaned to want to make me feel bad for having it.

My intention was not to make anyone feel infreier, but only to gain insight.

I will let you have the last word on this little back and forth so it can be over with.

Thank you for your opinion, I may not agree with it, but I will not atempt to stop you from having it.

Shylah

P.S.
Could you please assist me in finding the qoute I made which you are refuring to. I looked and couldn't fint it.

< Message edited by Shylahgirl -- 3/7/2007 11:24:38 AM >

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 11:23:27 AM

MasterFireMaam

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From: Charleston, WV
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shylahgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Actually, it is you who are ONLY a slave, or perhaps JUST a slave, or maybe you can't be MORE than a slave?

Doesn't feel as nice does it? Think about that before you go putting someone down as "ONLY" a top or bottom. I am sure this isn't something you mean to do but you are ranking which label is better rather than simply saying each is different.

I am wondering why you seem to be getting so combative over me posting this question?

Yes I may have used the wrong word to discribe something, but you seem to be wanting to make it an issue. I have tryed to explain my view as one of exceptence and you seem determaned to want to make me feel bad for having it.

My intention was not to make anyone feel infreier, but only to gain insight.

I will let you have the last word on this little back and forth so it can be over with.

Thank you for your opinion, I may not agree with it, but I will not atempt to stop you from having it.

Shylah

Shylah,

SM's comment here wasn't to you, it was to elderrook. Ya'll are both now on the defensive and starting to take things personally. Neither of you mean it that way.

Master Fire

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
-----
BDSM How-To Books

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 11:27:25 AM

SusanofO

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I tend to think it's a question of semantics, given how two people are going to define their own relationship and dynamic anyway. The only exception I've seen are the terms "Top" and "bottom", but that's just me, my POV.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 3/7/2007 11:43:30 AM >

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And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 11:41:31 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shylahgirl
...Choice of words tells me alot about the person and I just want to see if my imnpressions are accuret...

for this slave, there is no ONE reality, no ONE truth, no ONE true way for everyone to follow.

"bottom" is the position this slave would serve in the context of a scene, unless Master instructed her to top someone.

"submissive" is the way this slave reacts and interacts with the world and everyone in it.

"slave" is this slave's choice of expressing her submissive orientation in the context of an intimate consensual relationship.

this slave has ZERO expectation that her reality or truth is the same or better or worse or is more or less prevelant than another's.

this slave's take on why people are so hyper-sensitive about it??? one persons label is another's "name-caller". to each their own.

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 11:42:30 AM

domiguy

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That is why there are profiles..It takes but a sentence or two to explain yourself or that which you are seeking....No big deal.

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RE: A question of semantics - 3/7/2007 11:55:53 AM

AquaticSub

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~Fast Reply~
Things sure do get interesting when you are talking about labels don't they?

Personally, I'm a kitten sub and I'm busy trying to figure out exactly what that means to me and my owner. I'm not particularly concerned with what anyone thinks about my relationship with him or our names for ourselves.

I both understand and dislike the community's desire for labels. It's convenient to have a word that tells us "Ahh, this person likes bedroom play, but doesn't want to have a 24/7 relationship", or "This person wants a 24/7 relationship", etc. It makes things easier. The problem, in my opinion, is nature of humanity and the nature of our language. There is a subtle, but distinct, difference in saying "They are a bottom" and "They are only a bottom".

I am starting to feel that the words we use force this hierarchy on us. Bottoms are "just" bottoms, subs are trying to "achieve" slave status... I feel that we can be just about anything for the right partner. I could be a slave for the right partner, however I am happy with Valyraen and have no desire to seek that relationship. Who knows? Someday we might go that route. But for now we are happy with us as owner and kitten.

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

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Post #: 20

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