RE: Did we Belong in Iraq

RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Polls and Other Random Stupidity

[Poll]

Did we Belong in Iraq

Yes

29% (19)

67% (43)

maybe

3% (2)

Total Votes : 64

(last vote on : 9/19/2006 12:07:08 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )

Message

Mercnbeth -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (6/30/2005 5:44:16 PM)
quote: Merc, if you're so well informed about the Downing Street memo and so freely grant its authenticity, how can you possibly make the statement that Bush was merely listening to his intelligence advisors? I say those are two different statements. 1. He listened to advisers. 2. The Downing street memo exists. Regarding #1 - He may have only listened to the advisers that suited his goal and ignored the advisers who didn't. If I remember Colin Powell was against the invasion and it was concerning. I think many do that routinely. Regarding #2. - Again, so what? And in deference to Kaplan of Slate, who is WAY more informed than me; ALL the memos must be read to understand context. As with Bush concerning #1 - I'll agree with Kaplan because I agree with his position. Choose not to - no problem! There are a LOT of contradictory positions regarding this matter to reference. A lot of "plans" go awry. People make plans and contingency plans and something happens to either put the plans in action or cause them to be scuttled. People plan on getting married, do so, and plan to stay so "forever". Yet we have disappointment and divorce. I put the Downing Street Memo in the category of a plan that went into effect. I only cited the references, I didn't create them. Gloria - Flame versus substance - very unbecoming. Unfortunately I do not have any of the names of the terrorist living in Iraq prior to the US invasion. If you represent that NONE resided or used Iraq as a meeting place, or base of operations I'd disagree, even without the names. To date I don't know anyone who knows is bin Laden was or wasn't in Iraq. I don't recall that being cited as a reason for the invasion in any event. Saddam was harboring "terrorists" not specifically bin Laden. Wait, I think I may have a "name". I think Zarqawi may have been there back then. I'd look it up, but as you say referencing a fact which is contrary to your position is a "waste of time". Okay - I can agree with that. I would never "slander" you or anyone, nor do I doubt anything you say as being a fact to you. When I think someone/something is a joke I state it. I appreciate your concession on the facts based upon no rebuttal. I also appreciate again now that you saving all my posts. Please keep them in context, and indexed by subject matter. If my memoirs are ever published I'll reference you as my historian. beth's promises not be be jealous. Still wish a response from anyone re: "What would Zarqawi, bin Laden and the other Islamic terrorists be doing? Would they all go back to sheep herding, or opening convenience stores, or driving taxis in NYC? Would the war be "over" as it was on September 10, 2001? Were the people we saw dancing in the streets on 9/11 our "friends" who became enemies after we invaded Iraq?" And for emphasis. I did NOT want to vote for Bush. Oh, and on the subject of the "stolen" Ohio election and the lack of sufficient voting booths in poor, minority districts. The district party leaders determine how many and where the machines are placed. Unless there are white old men running the local precincts in these neighborhoods the argument isn't valid. I don't know how to explain the difference in the exit polls completely, but I wasn't proud and looking to brag about my vote for Bush that day. I would have done it, but I'd bet there were many more who took the easy way and didn't. I do NOT like his religious agenda concerning censorship, and many other of his policies. I thought and still think that as a country we would be MUCH worse off with the only alternative offered in November 2004. Hell, by 2008 Hilliary may be a viable alternative..... NOT!!!!!

knees2you -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (6/30/2005 10:05:56 PM)
Please Just look up the "Imperial Brain Trust" Thank You, Ant

Mercnbeth -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/1/2005 9:17:18 AM)
quote: Please Just look up the "Imperial Brain Trust Ant - Please see post #51 Re: Imperial Brain Trust".

Lordandmaster -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/1/2005 10:19:17 AM)
If you really believe this, then you concede that he had already set his goals, and merely used those advisors whose opinions furthered his goals. In that case, it's more than misleading to say that he was just listening to his advisors. He used his advisors when they furthered his interests, and ignored them when they didn't. That's not listening. quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Regarding #1 - He may have only listened to the advisers that suited his goal and ignored the advisers who didn't. If I remember Colin Powell was against the invasion and it was concerning. I think many do that routinely.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/1/2005 2:09:20 PM)
quote: If you really believe this, then you concede that he had already set his goals, and merely used those advisors whose opinions furthered his goals. In that case, it's more than misleading to say that he was just listening to his advisors. He used his advisors when they furthered his interests, and ignored them when they didn't. That's not listening. He may have set the goal. I agree that it may have been a personal goal to remove Saddam. I agree with all who think Bush had a pre-disposition to go to war in Iraq. You can give him the juvenile childish persona and reason that he wanted the war to "avenge" his father's failure to remove Saddam; or you can give him the benefit of having the belief that Saddam and his regime was the source of terrorist funding if not direct terrorist protection and involvement. The tragic and dramatic circumstances provided by 9/11 provided a spark to light the fuse for the war. Please indulge me and not interject the possibility of Bush and the government having the responsibility of direct involvement in what happened in NYC. I spent too much time than I expected tracking down and reading the conspiracy theories regarding that. Some are very compelling. I still don't believe it, but I know it's out there. For the purposes of this response let's keep that for another thread for another day.(THANKS!) After 9/11 I'm sure he got advise on both sides of the war issue. Haven't you asked for advice from a group or individual and then ignore it, because you already made up your mind? Hell, my ex-wife's father told me I was crazy to marry his daughter and did I listen? NOPE! I had a pre-determined "path of action". And I could have found a whole bunch of people to think I was doing the right thing. I "listened" to those that thought it was a good idea. Good or bad, I think that's what went on when it came to Iraq. Bush discounted the advice that didn't fall in line with his intent and none of the people supplying that advice gave him a good enough reason NOT to follow his pre-determined decision. Whether that's an acceptable definition of "listening" or not is moot. I guess if he didn't go to war the argument could be that he didn't "listen" to those that said he should. Ironic, getting back to the juvenile argument, his father's failure was sighted as not completing the task of war - removing the source of the Kuwaiti invasion, Saddam. He didn't "listen" to those that said he should have marched into Baghdad. That actually creates another interesting debate question. Would 9/11 have occurred if George Bush I marched into Baghdad and took out Saddam during Desert Storm? If you read the Slate article, that's basically what it's saying. All the planning and contingencies were discussed and ready to be put in effect. Plans should be in effect and thought out for a lot of scenarios. "War Games" are conducted routinely over "plans", fortunately we don't know about the majority of them, fortunately most of them don't happen. Meanwhile, during this long weekend, please salute and thank the soldiers you see and send a good thought (or prayer if you are like beth) for those soldiers you don't.

knees2you -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/1/2005 6:29:25 PM)
Sorry I just don't Believe that People Like Bush and Blair are Really in~charge of their respective Countries..[&:] I Truly believe that they are pawns~[8D] Sincerely, Ant[;)]

Lordandmaster -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/2/2005 12:49:33 AM)
It's not "moot," Merc. It has to do with whether our president is a liar and a hypocrite. "Listening to his intelligence advisors" means being guided by what his intelligence advisors said. He could even have listened to some of his intelligence advisors and not to others. But in fact he listened to none of them; he and his administration had long since made up their mind that they would go to war, and the opinions of those intelligence analysts who were willing to say what the White House wanted to hear served no other purpose than to provide pretexts for a war that had no legitimacy or legal justification. Since you seem to agree with virtually all of this, I don't exactly understand why you hold to the line that the war was OK, that Bush was merely doing what his intelligence advisors told him to do, and that 9/11 somehow has anything to do with the war in Iraq. From the point of view of our cynical policy-makers, 9/11 has one purpose only: to provide yet another pretext for an immoral, illegal, corrupt, destructive, bloody, and futile war. Lam quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Bush discounted the advice that didn't fall in line with his intent and none of the people supplying that advice gave him a good enough reason NOT to follow his pre-determined decision. Whether that's an acceptable definition of "listening" or not is moot.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/3/2005 5:50:22 PM)
Lam, Appreciate your using the word "our" to describe him. Many forget that. Good or bad he's "ours". Anyway, I don't think I'm making my point clear enough. Damn I hate written communication! I think we are basically in agreement; Bush had a predetermined mind set to invade Iraq. The reason is "moot". 9/11 lit the fuse and Saddam contributed to his own demise by communicating a mixed signal of compliance. I think he assumed that Bush would not go it alone. Could anything have been done to prevent the series of occurrences? Yes. If he took the same tactic as Gaddafi, Bush could not have invaded. It was a pragmatic "surrender" which enabled Gaddafi to keep his Libyan kingdom and all that went with it. But getting back to the "listening to his intelligence advisors"; again I'll say he listened when it suited him and his predetermined opinion. I don't think you believe that none of his advisers were for invasion. I know Powell was not, but Cheney was. I know there were others. I think it was split on very nearing percentages ad the public polls. The problem was nothing he heard from the other side was overwhelming enough to change his mind. Another person may have listened to the same arguments and made a different choice - he didn't. But if another person made the decision NOT to invade listening to the same arguments TOO invade it could be said that he did not "listen" to those that advised him to invade. In both cases it's a decision made as a function of the job. If you are on the other side of the issue you are going to argue he didn't "listen". A giant rationalization, but it's difficult to argue that Bush was the only person in favor of invasion. Even public opinion polls were in favor or split on the issue.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/4/2005 12:28:25 AM)
The reason why I can't agree with you about this is that people like Hans Blix were right all along. And what was the name of that former weapons inspector who made mincemeat of his reputation at the beginning of the war by insisting that Saddam had no WMD's? I forget his name, but it turns out he was right, too. There were plenty of people who were calling for the only sane approach, namely, to allow the weapons inspectors time to finish their job before authorizing an invasion. (And as the Downing Street memo makes clear, the only reason why Bush gave a shit about the Security Council was that Britain insisted on having a U.N. mandate.) Bush didn't listen to people like that because he COULDN'T: if he had followed their advice, he would have lost his major pretext for war. So I don't believe he was just listening and listening and then decided to go in because he didn't hear anything convincing on the other side. Looking back on it two and a half years later, the other side's view seems pretty damned convincing. Lam

knees2you -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/4/2005 7:38:09 AM)
I think Suddam picked on weaker people, and nobody had the balls to help them but the United States. When His father went in there, their was Weapons of Destruction, because Soilders from that time had Major medical problems. Sincerely, Ant [image]local://upfiles/19655/1252923C82A24F3D8E3CAEB851632D46.jpg[/image]

Mercnbeth -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/4/2005 11:07:50 AM)
quote: Looking back on it two and a half years later, the other side's view seems pretty damned convincing. True, and looking back, all argument of those on the side of invading Iraq and getting Saddam after liberating Kuwait seem convincing also. You can't be wrong in hindsight. I can agree with everything you said. But from my perspective the war was right. My perspective? My friends and business working out of the WTC on the 97th floor. I would have done it sooner, more radically, and with ultimatum of escalation if bin Laden wasn't turned over. I also would not have used ground troops. I wouldn't care for the local people. Obviously by their current suicide bombings and killing of their own children and elderly clerics they don't care for themselves anyway. I wouldn't give any more value to their lives than they do. Where it I, the only thing that would have prevented that decision was Saddam flying into and American AFB somewhere in the world with bin Laden in cuffs. Because I favored Bush over Kerry you can argue that I can accept the rationalization of him "listening". I understand you can't. I agree with your position, I don't agree that it makes any difference except the gravity of having a "lying president". Only Washington may have the distinction of not lying as a president. Come to think of it, that was a childhood story about the cherry tree, so I'm sure even his distraction wouldn't hold up to scrutiny. The Englishman who inspected and found no WMD's, was it Scott Ritter?

Lordandmaster -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/4/2005 11:37:22 AM)
I knew people in the WTC too. But that doesn't mean I support invading Iraq when Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I really don't understand your perspective. All the Iraq War accomplished on THAT front is that it diverted resources from the unfinished campaign in Afghanistan. And Bin Laden is still at large--but not in Iraq. quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth But from my perspective the war was right. My perspective? My friends and business working out of the WTC on the 97th floor. I would have done it sooner, more radically, and with ultimatum of escalation if bin Laden wasn't turned over.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/4/2005 5:02:34 PM)
quote: I knew people in the WTC too. But that doesn't mean I support invading Iraq when Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. I really don't understand your perspective. All the Iraq War accomplished on THAT front is that it diverted resources from the unfinished campaign in Afghanistan. And Bin Laden is still at large--but not in Iraq. Lam, I respect you, your opinions, and our differences.

sub4hire -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/5/2005 9:37:06 AM)
quote: Gloria - Flame versus substance - very unbecoming. There is a lot of substance to any claim I make. Although as you said yourself...in an earlier thread here. You don't care what evidence there is. In reference to the Downing street memo. YOU DON'T CARE. Sounds just like those guys last year in Iowa as we were eating breakfast. Telling the whore restaurant if anyone beat bush they were going to kill them. Ignorance breeds more ignorance.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/5/2005 11:44:37 AM)
quote: Although as you said yourself...in an earlier thread here. You don't care what evidence there is. In reference to the Downing street memo. The think the quote you are referencing was; "Every time I see lower Manhattan, I see all the justification I need." Still do, as stated in my discussion with Lam. I don't see where my argument compares to "those guys" "Telling the whore restaurant..." (btw - where is the "whore restaurant"?) has anything to do with anything, but I'll attribute to name-calling versus debate. As my historian I'm sure you'll reference that in an earlier post I said that should Kerry have won, I would have respected his position and his representation as president of the US. His actions would have determined if I respected him or not. His vacillation and lack of commitment to any position was the determining factor of my vote.

sub4hire -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/5/2005 1:12:45 PM)
quote: I don't see where my argument compares to "those guys" "Telling the whore restaurant..." (btw - where is the "whore restaurant"?) has anything to do with anything, but I'll attribute to name-calling versus debate. As my historian I'm sure you'll reference that in an earlier post I said that should Kerry have won, I would have respected his position and his representation as president of the US. His actions would have determined if I respected him or not. His vacillation and lack of commitment to any position was the determining factor of my vote. The whore restuaurant was a typo which you already knew. Unlike you I don't edit everything I write. Personally I find that dishonest changing what I say per what response I get. That has got zero to do with you, I don't edit my posts. I don't know if Kerry would have been the best for the job. That is what I have said time and time again. You're merely come to your own conslusions assuming. I only follow what our leader is doing, which doesn't look so hot to anyone else in the world let alone those of us who follow him. Would Kerry have done a better job? Don't really know.

Lordandmaster -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/5/2005 2:11:08 PM)
And as I said, I can't understand the logic behind this. Even the President has abandoned the sham that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. The only thing Iraq has in common with al Qaeda is that they're both Muslim (and, you know, Hussein wasn't even a Muslim leader). You're not making any sense, and frankly I think your views about this are fundamentally non-rational. I think you just hate Muslims. quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth "Every time I see lower Manhattan, I see all the justification I need." Still do, as stated in my discussion with Lam.

ProScatman -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/5/2005 3:29:02 PM)
I believe "French Style" refers to the French getting their asses kicked out of Vietnam.

ProScatman -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/5/2005 3:47:08 PM)
Gloria: I didn't know you were a Gulf War Vet. Welcome home! I'd suggest you have regular physicals with your own family Dr.. When I came home from Vietnam I was 19 going on 20. I knew later on that the Tanker planes flying over our heads were not spraying for mosquetos as we were told; but instead Agent Orange, White, Blue, or a combination of all three! I have had physical problems no one can figure out. You owe it to yourself Gloria. Semper Fi.

sub4hire -> RE: Did we Belong in Iraq (7/5/2005 3:50:26 PM)
quote: Gloria: I didn't know you were a Gulf War Vet. Welcome home! I'd suggest you have regular physicals with your own family Dr.. When I came home from Vietnam I was 19 going on 20. I knew later on that the Tanker planes flying over our heads were not spraying for mosquetos as we were told; but instead Agent Orange, White, Blue, or a combination of all three! I have had physical problems no one can figure out. You owe it to yourself Gloria. Semper Fi. Thank you for the concern, I do. In my family we have heart disease...diabetes and cancer. I'm going to die of one. So, every year like clockwork I have a total physcial. We were told the alarms were false, yet they could'nt justify gulf war syndrome either. For what its worth I know a guy whom was in vietnam...the government just gave him 200,000 for agent orange. Look at him you would'nt know there was a thing wrong.

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4] 5 next > >>

Spam Policy

0.0625