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Old Guard? - 4/2/2005 7:39:30 PM   
ryca7905


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Um, hello. Please forgive me for sounding Naive, for I am still rather so... Can someone tell me what a Master or Mistress of Old Guard is? I would greatly appreciate it if someone could.

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RE: Old Guard? - 4/2/2005 8:37:55 PM   
onceburned


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Ms Silvie posted a pithy definition of Old Guard in this thread:

http://www.collarme.com/forum/Old_Guard/m_79737/tm.htm

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RE: Old Guard? - 4/3/2005 12:07:48 AM   
BeachMystress


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It uses the search feature or it gets the hose.....

(Post on how to use the search feature http://www.collarme.com/forum/Search/m_13127/tm.htm)

And, as I've posted in other msgs, I have some links to information about the "old guard" on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Beachs_Dominion/links/Protocol__Old_Guard__001107379520/





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RE: Old Guard? - 4/3/2005 7:33:05 PM   
ryca7905


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Forgive me for being ignorant, I am rather new to all this, and did not know where to begin search for such a thing. From now on, if I have any questions about any of this, I will seek them out on my own. I am use to being left to my own devices by now. Thank you so much for answering this time though. And for giving me a way to help myself from now on.

Ryca

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RE: Old Guard? - 4/3/2005 8:47:22 PM   
Archer


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While I agree that the claim of Old Guard is often used to give some sort of instant credibilty to someone, Gorean Master, Victorian Mistress, and any number of other claims are used at least as if not more often for that same purpose.

Old Guard today usually means that they are attempting to reproduce the protocols of the Old Guard gay leather of the post WWII through the 70's.

The basic claim really is that one uses the Old Guard format, of course like Victorian protocols they are usually a hodgepodge of collected protocol pieces, since protocols varied from region to region and there really is no "universal" Old Guard or Victorian protocol. That said please go read "Still Unsafe at any Speed" Linked in another post in this General BDSM Discussion.




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RE: Old Guard? - 4/4/2005 2:46:49 PM   
BeachMystress


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You're best off to read the administrative announcements and forums guidelines.


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*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
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RE: Old Guard? - 4/4/2005 3:36:53 PM   
sweetpettjenny


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I consider old guard ..one who follows the protocols very closely...i find lots of people at my d/s club are very old school/guard.

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RE: Old Guard? - 4/4/2005 9:32:39 PM   
HypatiaSwan


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For what it's worth, the gay leather community practices (to this day) a somewhat more military style of leather protocol - depending of course on the area and the local scene. I mean, there is protocol in place for various rituals - pinnings, patches, how to wear certain pieces of leather, flagging, protocol when meeting someone, honorifics, earning leathers and club colors etc. There is also an emphasis on leather history. Most of this preservation of protocol and tradition is really driven by the leather title contests and leather clubs which are still alive and well. For instance, in my club, NJ Andromeda, new pledges are given assignments, mostly involving learning leather history and they are still inducted into the club "the old fashioned way" with a sort of hazing and having to grunt work. There are also quite a few large and well-known (queer/gay) leather families that keep traditions alive more in the gay and queer communities. Now, of course we aren't marching in lockstep. Some communities are more relaxed than others and in the privacy of small groups, protocols are relaxed some. It seems to me to be a function of the number of leather groups and leather contests in a given area that really makes the difference. The more you have, the more you'll probably have protocol that is more normalized and this usually happens around larger cities with larger LGBT communities (my experience). As you said, the protocols, while somewhat consistent, aren't perfectly congruent across the board. A bit hodgepodge, for sure. But I think the general ideas are in place. Some of the finer details get lost in the cracks or are just different from area to area. For instance, while the proverbial leather vest is the standard identifying piece of clothing, some clubs might say wear runs pins on the left, others on the right etc. And then, like any other community, there are those that just don't use much protocol at all. They just come out for the social aspect of it and could care less about norms and rituals.

Old Guard? I liked MsSilvie's definition. Usually people throw the term around when they are trying to puff themselves up by implying they've had some kind of special training. As far as I am concerned, Old Guard really refers to "the way it used to be." It was, from my understanding of leather history, no better, no more "formal" and no more protocol-oriented than it is today. I guess we (in the gay leather community) can credit our mostly ex-militaryleather biker/rough-sex, outcast elders with the distinction of forming the first sort-of-kind-of cohesive groups of gay leatherfolk. As always, the usual disclaimers apply. This is just my take and YMMV. I am, as always, still reading and learning about our leather roots and I am happy to learn from those who may know more than I do.

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RE: Old Guard? - 4/5/2005 3:42:04 AM   
ProtagonistLily


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quote:

Forgive me for being ignorant, I am rather new to all this, and did not know where to begin search for such a thing. From now on, if I have any questions about any of this, I will seek them out on my own. I am use to being left to my own devices by now. Thank you so much for answering this time though. And for giving me a way to help myself from now on.

Ryca


What? You asked a question and people answered it. I'm not clear on what the problem was. ~shrugs~

Lily

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RE: Old Guard? - 4/5/2005 3:47:16 AM   
ProtagonistLily


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HypatiaSwan,

Really excellent post. I've always been interested in meeting more of the leather men in town, and have occasionally gone to the local leather bar with a friend on 'kink' night. The actual club is of course closed to women, however, I find that it's nice to be able to meet people on the other side of the cultural fence. Even though the organization I belong to is pan-sexual, we don't get a lot of hard core gay leather folks, probably because of the existance of the leather men's group.

Lily

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RE: Old Guard? - 4/8/2005 3:42:45 AM   
MasterLexitus


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There are several responses which traced the history of "Old Guard". Others had some disparaging things to say.

But consider this. If you search on collarme, you will find that 90 Dom/mes refer to themselves as "Old Guard". I would suggest that there are 90 ways that is is meant, but I think today that "Old Guard" refers to a Dom/mes that likes a more formal approach.
Move "Story of O" and less "9 1/2 weeks".

You might want to consider dropping a quick note to several of the 90 Dom/mes and getting their personal understanding of what they meant when they called themselves "Old Guard".

< Message edited by MasterLexitus -- 4/8/2005 3:46:52 AM >


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RE: Old Guard? - 4/8/2005 4:02:07 AM   
onceburned


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quote:

You might want to consider dropping a quick note to several of the 90 Dom/mes and getting their personal understanding of what they meant when they called themselves "Old Guard".


Good point!

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RE: Old Guard? - 4/8/2005 6:50:45 AM   
Padriag


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When I was filling out my profile and selecting the interests, I had a moment to ponder this. I'll throw this out as food for thought about people who choose to add Old Guard on their profiles.

There were two selections I vascilated on... Old Guard and Gorean. I do not consider myself to be either... but, I have elements in common with both. In the brief definition the site says this about Old Guard

A BDSM sub-culture in which domianants are trained in specific techniques and rituals.

I was never formally trained by an specific group. However, I have over the years sought out and either adopted or invented my own formal protocols, rituals, techniques, etc. I have spend a lot of time either learning to apply psychology to this lifestyle on my own, or learning from others whenever I could. Am I Old Guard, strictly speaking no. In practical terms by the above definition, yes. I still didn't add this to my profile for a variety of reasons, but those were some of my thoughts as I considered it.

Second was Gorean... the site definition has this to say...

A male-dominated way of life with numerous rituals relating to things such as slave positions, dance and specific forms of address. Check here only if you are an experienced Gorean Master.

Let me say up front, I am not Gorean. I can't stand the books and think John Norman was a horrible writer. I don't particularly like online Gor, though there are elements of it I like... the fiction of it itself is one of the biggest problems for me. That's not intended to offend anyone, just my personal feelings about it (surprisingly I have several Gorean friends I get along very well with, just a difference of style is all). But, the style of relationship and life I want could be characterized as male dominant (since I am a male dominant). I do employ in my particular style rituals, position training, dance, specific forms of address and other elements that are similar to what you might find on Gor without being directly Gorean. So does that make me Goreanish? I didn't check this box either, though I considered it.

I feel like Laura Antoniou's "Middle Guard"... is there a check box for that? I'm not Old Guard... but I'm Old Guard-ish... I'm not Gorean... but I'm Goreanish... to check or not to check the box, that is the question. In the end I just decided not to check them, write a novella profile an leave the rest for either journal enteries, email or my under construction lifestyle website where I can write all about me an what I do to my hearts content.

My point... if you survey all those doms and dommes... you might want to ask how many selected them because they felt OG or Gor were similar to what they do... even if it isn't what they are.

Food for thought.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

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