RE: UN & NATO (Full Version)

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meatcleaver -> RE: UN & NATO (3/14/2007 11:56:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


I'm not wishing for wars in Europe.  I hope they wouldn't happen.  But the entire history of Europe is one of blood-shed and war.  The period since the end of WWII is one of the few periods of generational peace.  Just so happens, that is the same time frame of US "occupation" and interest in keeping the peace.

Europe is currently an economical driven engine.  But, remove the engine's governor, and ham-footed drivers will just follow their nature.



I know it is hard to suppress your glee at a potential new European conflagration but you are obviously ignorant of modern Europe. Europeans have more that tie them together than Americans. The difference between pre-WWII and now is, ordinary people travel, they have access to international media and they understand the world from the view of their fellow Europeans and most of all, a government can't isolate its population and feed it propaganda that can't be rebuted. Unlike Americans where only 9% of the population have passports and due to its geographical isolation, few Americans travel to other countries, 90% of Europeans have passports and regularly travel abroad. London is France's 7th city with 300,000 resident French, there are 600,000 Poles in Britain, 200,000 Germans, 40,000 Dutch etc. etc. All European countries are similar. Poor people go west for jobs, affluent people go east and buy homes. Quite a few western European farmers have bought farms in Russia, many Russians live in London and Paris and I don't mean rich ones. My daughter has classmates from Ukraine, Poland, Romania, France, Germany and Finland, she speaks three languages fluently and is learning another. Being European is their identity every bit as much as their nationality. Europe of hermetic states is long gone and there are only one or two backward pockets but even the US had places like Kentucky and Arkansas. As for Europe being an economically driven, what do you think the USA is? If the US economy hit the rocks and Mexico somehow became an economic tiger, all those US Spanish speakers would be wanting to throw their lot in with Mexico. Nations and nation states are organic and in a constant state of flux.

As for Europe's history being one entirely of bloodshed and war, you are just showing your ignorance of history and how few of the pre-20th events actually touched on the majority of Europeans. Pre-WWII, European history is no more bloody or at least no less bloody than American history.

As for hating the US, I don't, I enjoy my time there but its not my country and I don't want it controling my country and you wouldn't allow foreign missiles on your soil that have nothing to do with your defence!



popeye1250 -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 12:32:33 AM)

Meat, I agree with you, I don't want my country controlling Europe or any country.
Imperialism is too expensive.
Now, if we can just get the people in Washington to realise that.
It is pretty easy to travel in Europe though as it's much more compact than the U.S.
If I wanted to drive to california it'd take me 4 or 5 very long days of  12-15 hour driving.
If someone in Canada wanted to drive coast to coast it'd take them 5 or 6 days.



caitlyn -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 7:16:29 AM)

I have no idea why the travel issue keeps coming up with you. My state, is bigger than most European nations. Any chance that plays a part in the travel issue? I could play the same game with you. How many times have you been to Mexico meatcleaver? I've been hundreds of time. Why are you fucking Europeans so ignorant of Mexican culture? How about the Virgin Islands? I go every year, sometimes twice. How many times have you been? You damn Europeans are fucking ignorant of Virgin Islands' culture, and we shouldn't stand for it.
 
As an aside, when you do travel to the United States, how many people do you meet on average? Do you really think you are getting more than an introduction to American culture, from a two-week vacation? You would be better off reading books.
 
Your post does an excellent job of making my case for leaving both groups, especialy NATO. It is clear that Europe and America are on alternate paths, and that's fine. Time to cut each other loose.



meatcleaver -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 8:08:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I have no idea why the travel issue keeps coming up with you. My state, is bigger than most European nations. Any chance that plays a part in the travel issue? I could play the same game with you. How many times have you been to Mexico meatcleaver? I've been hundreds of time. Why are you fucking Europeans so ignorant of Mexican culture? How about the Virgin Islands? I go every year, sometimes twice. How many times have you been? You damn Europeans are fucking ignorant of Virgin Islands' culture, and we shouldn't stand for it.
 
As an aside, when you do travel to the United States, how many people do you meet on average? Do you really think you are getting more than an introduction to American culture, from a two-week vacation? You would be better off reading books.
 
Your post does an excellent job of making my case for leaving both groups, especialy NATO. It is clear that Europe and America are on alternate paths, and that's fine. Time to cut each other loose.


I brought the travel issue up because FirmhandKY seems to suggest Europeans will be at each others throats should US military not be here and I was pointing out that not only travel between European countries is normal and routine but working in other European countries is now normal and routine for many people.

I've been to Mexico twice and Canada four times and the USA seven times (four six week visits) and no I haven't been to the Virgin Islands but I have been to Cuba twice.



FirmhandKY -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 9:31:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I have no idea why the travel issue keeps coming up with you. My state, is bigger than most European nations. Any chance that plays a part in the travel issue? I could play the same game with you. How many times have you been to Mexico meatcleaver? I've been hundreds of time. Why are you fucking Europeans so ignorant of Mexican culture? How about the Virgin Islands? I go every year, sometimes twice. How many times have you been? You damn Europeans are fucking ignorant of Virgin Islands' culture, and we shouldn't stand for it.
 
As an aside, when you do travel to the United States, how many people do you meet on average? Do you really think you are getting more than an introduction to American culture, from a two-week vacation? You would be better off reading books.
 
Your post does an excellent job of making my case for leaving both groups, especialy NATO. It is clear that Europe and America are on alternate paths, and that's fine. Time to cut each other loose.


I brought the travel issue up because FirmhandKY seems to suggest Europeans will be at each others throats should US military not be here and I was pointing out that not only travel between European countries is normal and routine but working in other European countries is now normal and routine for many people.

I've been to Mexico twice and Canada four times and the USA seven times (four six week visits) and no I haven't been to the Virgin Islands but I have been to Cuba twice.


I gotta agree with caitlyn ... again.

It's more than time to cut em off the apron strings.  [:D]

As for meat ...

The best way to anticipate future events is to look at the past.  I didn't say that I have a crystal ball.  I don't want, nor do I "need" there to be strife and war in Europe.  Just that it is widely recognized that the US's involvement in Europe has had a stabilizing influence over the last half century or so.

It's that stabilizing influence - along with the pressures of the Cold War - that gave European countries the possibilities of working out methods and systems to hopefully prevent a return to your historical patterns of behavior.

I can't say that you are wrong about there now being sufficient inter-change and understanding between the differing populations and governments of European so that a return to "the Great Game" is unlikely.  But neither can you say without a doubt that there won't be.

How's that EU constitution coming along, btw?  How about the integration of muslim populations?

Your understanding of the US is from a very Euro-centric viewpoint as well.  You're comments about the "backwardness" of Kentucky or Arkansas is also indicative of your ignorance and your culturally centered opinions.  As well as a futile attempt to insult me.

And since you are swinging your dick around about all of your "travels" and "world experience": I've spent more time in Europe, than you have in the US.  In fact,  I've spent more time in Asia and the Middle East than you have in the US.

Which one of us does this make more "cosmopolitian"?

Not that I think simply visiting a country is sufficient to allow one to understand another's culture fully.  It's necessary, but not sufficient.  One must understand one's one culture, one's own prejudices and history before you can have a full appreciation of others, I think.

Tell ya what, meat.  In a few months or so, why not come over and visit me for a while?  I'm in a state of transition right now, personally, but in maybe a year I'd be more than willing to put you up for several months, and give you a personal education about the "backwardness" of Kentucky and the insular nature of the US, if you want.

Just be prepared to stay for an extended period of time, and try leaving your prejudices behind.

FirmKY



meatcleaver -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 10:18:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

The best way to anticipate future events is to look at the past.  I didn't say that I have a crystal ball.  I don't want, nor do I "need" there to be strife and war in Europe.  Just that it is widely recognized that the US's involvement in Europe has had a stabilizing influence over the last half century or so.



Well I have to agree there, two ideologically opposed superpowers eyeballing eachother is going to stablize the situation or cause a castastrophe.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
I can't say that you are wrong about there now being sufficient inter-change and understanding between the differing populations and governments of European so that a return to "the Great Game" is unlikely.  But neither can you say without a doubt that there won't be.


Tomorrow's great game will be in the Pacific between the US, China and India.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

How's that EU constitution coming along, btw?  How about the integration of muslim populations?



Actually it was a constitutional treaty and not a constitution per se. It was basically an amalgamation of existing treaties but it was a lawyer's charter which was why most people didn't understand it. The French and the Dutch voting it down for totally contradictory reasons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Your understanding of the US is from a very Euro-centric viewpoint as well.  You're comments about the "backwardness" of Kentucky or Arkansas is also indicative of your ignorance and your culturally centered opinions.  As well as a futile attempt to insult me.


I didn't insult you, I insulted Kentucky and Arkansas. I assume you live in one of those two states. One thing I realised when I went to the US the first time and which is reinforced on each return trip, I don't understand anything about the US and it was because of that experience that I formed my view that Europe should form its own policies free of US influence. I'm sure that most pro-American Brits think the US is a completely different country than it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

And since you are swinging your dick around about all of your "travels" and "world experience": I've spent more time in Europe, than you have in the US.  In fact,  I've spent more time in Asia and the Middle East than you have in the US.

Which one of us does this make more "cosmopolitian"?



Depends how much time you spent in Asia.

I wasn't bragging. Caitlyn was asking, although sacastically.

I was actually trying to illustrate that Europeans travel between eachothers states and work in each other's with a regularity that puts it akin to Americans travelling around the US, that the idea of separate European countries is becoming blurred for many.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Tell ya what, meat.  In a few months or so, why not come over and visit me for a while?  I'm in a state of transition right now, personally, but in maybe a year I'd be more than willing to put you up for several months, and give you a personal education about the "backwardness" of Kentucky and the insular nature of the US, if you want.



Actually my prejudices were formed by an American (New Yorker) who I was traveling with.

I might just take you up on that offer.



popeye1250 -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 11:08:25 AM)

Caitlyn, and look at the people bitching about those savages in GTMO.
How many of them have actually BEEN to GTMO?
Not too many I'd venture to guess! But, they like blowing their mouths off about it.
"GTMO is a torture chamber! A terrible place!"
"Ever been there?"
"Ah.........no."
I've been there 8-10 times!
I have to laugh when they say that those savages should be released. "Sure, we'll let them loose in YOUR neighborhood!"



caitlyn -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 11:36:47 AM)

One again, nobody in their right mind, would want another war in Europe. Lets be very clear on that. That said, you really present a very rosey picture of Europe. It's not that we don't know and understand your history meatcleaver ... more like we see it through glasses not colored by pride. Most of us see a Europe with some very progressive nations, as you have presented ... but we also see those less progressive, and can't help notice that certain powers in Europe still seem to think they can talk any question to death ... and it will actually go away.
 
Question ... do you suppose the events in the Balkans could have been a more serious situation, had the Americans not forced NATO into action?



popeye1250 -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 11:52:31 AM)

I don't want to see a war in Europe either but if it happens I don't want my country getting involved in it this time!
Twice is enough!



meatcleaver -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 12:08:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn


Question ... do you suppose the events in the Balkans could have been a more serious situation, had the Americans not forced NATO into action?


If my memory serves me right it was Blair that pressed for NATO intervention in the Balkens, Clinton would only agree to a bombing campaign and definitely no ground troops if the bombing campaign failed. Blair tried to rally other European countries to promise ground troops if the bombing campaign failed but none would agree. Blair was ready to commit British troops if he could get ground access to Kosovo and hope other countries would follow the British lead. However, it never came to that because the Serbs back downed under the bombing. It was only after Serbia gave way were any troops commited. Though myself, I'm not sure there should have been an intervention or at least an intervention that placed Serbia as the bad guy simply because Russia was their ally. It was because of this position other Europeans were reluctant to come on board because Serbia were clearly no worse than the Croats, the Kosovan Albanians and the Bosnians, all had criminals in high positions. Now we are left with Kosovo in limbo and the possibilty of another war. It also gave Blair the belief that military power can solve political problems when it clearly can't.

Other factors were, Germany is reluctant to use its military because of its history and its constitution forbids it but is making noises that it would support a joint force under the auspices of the EU. France is reluctant to allow its troops to serve under American command but also appears to prefer a joint force under the auspices of the EU. However, it is Britain that is the main country preventing the formation of a European military, seeming to prefer its roll as the 51st state.

The German Chancellor Angela Merkel, in her position as President of the EU has just been on the radio complaining about the US lobbying individual EU countries in regard to it placing missile defence systems in Europe when it should be discussing it collectively because siting missiles creates tension throughout the region regardless of which country sites them.



popeye1250 -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 12:34:49 PM)

Nice, and the U.S. ends up with 300-500,000 "refugees" from Bosnia and Kosovo who are STILL here!



FirmhandKY -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 12:38:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

 It also gave Blair the belief that military power can solve political problems when it clearly can't.


Military power solves political problems all the time.  That's it purpose.  It is the inefficient, incomplete, or inproper use of military force that doesn't solve political problems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

France is reluctant to allow its troops to serve under American command ...


Yeah.  They might actually win a war for a change.  [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

 However, it is Britain that is the main country preventing the formation of a European military, seeming to prefer its roll as the 51st state.


hmmm ... the 51st state of the world's only superpower, or the 26th state of a fractured, convoluted, unsure and uncertain group of nations that can't even come together to form a commmon defense and international policy?

And which other European nation shares as much of the same culture, military capability and common desires than the US and the UK?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The German Chancellor Angela Merkel, in her position as President of the EU has just been on the radio complaining about the US lobbying individual EU countries in regard to it placing missile defence systems in Europe when it should be discussing it collectively because siting missiles creates tension throughout the region regardless of which country sites them.


See my comments about a common international policy.  Which nation has given up it's sovereignty to the EU yet?

Perhaps when European nations become subordinate entities to a sovereign EU, then it would be appropriate to castigate the US for not respecting the government of Europe over the government of each individual member state.

Until that happens ... her complaints are baseless.

FirmKY



popeye1250 -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 12:47:57 PM)

I'm wondering which European country will be the first to accept "Sharia law?"
Holland? France?



babyboyk -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 12:52:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

I understand your point, caitlyn.  But I also have major concerns
about the US pulling out of both NATO and the UN would cause
a serious vacuum of power that could very well be filled by
worse infighting and corruption.



forgive me if im wrong, but speaking as an English man, doesnt that sound a wee bit like the US trying to be the worlds policeman???? i admit were not perfect, but...... for a long time the English have stood by the US through thick and thin. again, forgive me if i am wrong, but we stood by you after 9/11, probablly the worst act of terrorrism this century (and after our experiences with the Irish) its my understanding, that although the UN is way less than perfect (look at th atrocity in Srebrenica, in Bosnia-Herzogovena, we need an organisation to bang a few heads together when two countries fall out. im thinking that the American psychie seems to think hat it can do things on its own, which arguablly in this day in age, is unsustainable, eg, the US couldnt have fought the 1st Gulf War with out the help of the allied coallition, and arguablly, currently in Iraq...
 
it is my belief that although it is not perfect, the US needs to stay in the UN, although it is deeply flawed, perhaps it will be reformed (there goes another can of worms....) as the most powerfull nation on earth at present, the US has the clout to bang a few heads together, although the rest of the world may not agree with American politics (probablly too right wing for European tastes), though the Us has an Ace up its sleave, like nuclear weapons, as we do, lol.



babyboyk -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 12:55:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

I'm wondering which European country will be the first to accept "Sharia law?"
Holland? France?


LOL, im hoping no European Country accepts Sharia Law



SimplyMichael -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 12:56:02 PM)

Luckily for the rest of the world as well as for prospects of peace, Bush has ended the reign of the US as a superpower.  By the time we exit Iraq, the US will be spent economically much like Britain was at the end of WWII.

However, unlike Britain, there will be no recovery for the US.  China will not allow it, India has no need for us, and a resurgent Russia still has internal resources to exploit.  We have no more goodwill, the IMF and Worldbank have been exposed as the daggers of US economic imperialism they truly are, and we are so mired in debt that we are truly fucked. 

I hope to god I am wrong but when the housing market finally collapses due to the comming rush of foreclosures on high risk paper, it will end our ability to buy crap from China and China will dumb the dollar and we can all thank Mr. Bush for the aftermath.



meatcleaver -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 12:59:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Perhaps when European nations become subordinate entities to a sovereign EU, then it would be appropriate to castigate the US for not respecting the government of Europe over the government of each individual member state.

Until that happens ... her complaints are baseless.



Not at all, we all live in the region and Americans don't. Of course the governments of Poland and Czech Republic can go against the will of their people and the EU countries that don't like their region destabilizing can make life uncomfortable for Poland and the Czech Republic for doing so. Both countries earn a lot of money from German industry and there are many Polish and Czech workers in Germany. They will have to decide who they want to listen to, their citizens and neighbours or the USA who will let them hang should push come to shove.



babyboyk -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 1:06:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Luckily for the rest of the world as well as for prospects of peace, Bush has ended the reign of the US as a superpower.  By the time we exit Iraq, the US will be spent economically much like Britain was at the end of WWII.

However, unlike Britain, there will be no recovery for the US.  China will not allow it, India has no need for us, and a resurgent Russia still has internal resources to exploit.  We have no more goodwill, the IMF and Worldbank have been exposed as the daggers of US economic imperialism they truly are, and we are so mired in debt that we are truly fucked. 

I hope to god I am wrong but when the housing market finally collapses due to the comming rush of foreclosures on high risk paper, it will end our ability to buy crap from China and China will dumb the dollar and we can all thank Mr. Bush for the aftermath.


i tend to agree, but as a brit (and i regard the US as brothers) the world needs the US to remain strong...the chinese may be up and comming, but they arent quite there yet, it will take a while before they come up to 'standard', they may need to democratise first.... agreed, Mr Bush has been dolt over the last 10 years or so, im thinking that his Presidency has been about avenging daddys failings in Iraq......



Vendaval -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 1:12:21 PM)

Hello babyoyk,
 
I do not agree with America playing the part of world police.
And I do realize that most of the EU views American politics
as being too right wing.  However; the US pulling out of the UN
and NATO could easily lead to more infighting and chaos, therefore
increasing the probability of more warfare. 
 
Do you have more specific information on reforming the UN
and NATO?  Is there a call for such reforms in the UK?
 
Regards,
 

Vendaval


(Edited for formatting)

quote:

ORIGINAL: babyboyk
forgive me if im wrong, but speaking as an English man, doesnt that sound a wee bit like the US trying to be the worlds policeman???? i admit were not perfect, but...... for a long time the English have stood by the US through thick and thin. again, forgive me if i am wrong, but we stood by you after 9/11, probablly the worst act of terrorrism this century (and after our experiences with the Irish) its my understanding, that although the UN is way less than perfect (look at th atrocity in Srebrenica, in Bosnia-Herzogovena, we need an organisation to bang a few heads together when two countries fall out. im thinking that the American psychie seems to think hat it can do things on its own, which arguablly in this day in age, is unsustainable, eg, the US couldnt have fought the 1st Gulf War with out the help of the allied coallition, and arguablly, currently in Iraq...
 
it is my belief that although it is not perfect, the US needs to stay in the UN, although it is deeply flawed, perhaps it will be reformed (there goes another can of worms....) as the most powerfull nation on earth at present, the US has the clout to bang a few heads together, although the rest of the world may not agree with American politics (probablly too right wing for European tastes), though the Us has an Ace up its sleave, like nuclear weapons, as we do, lol.



SimplyMichael -> RE: UN & NATO (3/15/2007 1:19:50 PM)

Let's not forget that the UN's "flaws" are there on purpose.  It is meant to be a hollow shell that only has teeth and muscle when America wants it to and is completely powerless if we don't.



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