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RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 2:32:26 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Luckily for the rest of the world as well as for prospects of peace, Bush has ended the reign of the US as a superpower.  By the time we exit Iraq, the US will be spent economically much like Britain was at the end of WWII.


You have any facts to back up this erronous belief?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

However, unlike Britain, there will be no recovery for the US.  China will not allow it, India has no need for us, and a resurgent Russia still has internal resources to exploit.  We have no more goodwill, the IMF and Worldbank have been exposed as the daggers of US economic imperialism they truly are, and we are so mired in debt that we are truly fucked.


It is in China's interest to have a strong US economy. 

India will be one of our biggest allies in this century.

Russia will stay mired in inefficiency and political troubles in trying to subdue its lost possessions on the Eurasian landmass, a stronger China, and have it's hands full in extending it's political control over Europe.

The IMF and World Bank have always received much of their funding from the US and were set up as part of the US's post WWII reording of the international order of things.  There is no surprises that they tend to mirror US economic beliefs.  And neither have any power or authority except what they are given in agreements with the nations that deal with them.

The debt isn't a major factor in limiting US growth and is a positive factor for international stability.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I hope to god I am wrong but when the housing market finally collapses due to the comming rush of foreclosures on high risk paper, it will end our ability to buy crap from China and China will dumb the dollar and we can all thank Mr. Bush for the aftermath.


ok.  Although I fail to see how it's all "Bush's fault".

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 3/15/2007 2:34:37 PM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 2:53:43 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

You have any facts to back up this erronous belief?
  Yes but they are clearly over your head or you wouldn't have to ask this question.


quote:

It is in China's interest to have a strong US economy.  /quote]  Until it isn't and that time is fast approaching, and I just love people who think of themelves as realists who's argument for lying on their belly before a beast is "don't worry, they don't want to eat us, they are a nice doggy"  The moment China's internal market can sustain their economy is the moment they flush the US down the drain and end us as a superpower, all without firing a shot, something Szun Tsu would be oh so proud of.

quote:

India will be one of our biggest allies in this century.

India, unlike China, is basing its economy on the CREATION of high tech, not the slavish production of it.  Guess who's economic model that USED to be?  People competing for the same piece of the same pie don't make the best allies.  India has its own nukes and isn't going to fear China enough to suck up to us all that much.

quote:

Russia will stay mired in inefficiency and political troubles in trying to subdue its lost possessions on the Eurasian landmass, a stronger China, and have it's hands full in extending it's political control over Europe. 
  There is some truth in this but natural gas will only get you so far.

quote:

The debt isn't a major factor in limiting US growth and is a positive factor for international stability.


So you bemoan "tax and spend" democrats but don't mind if republicans "borrow and squander" and create unimaginable debt?  Of course the whole house of cards fall the minute people dump the dollar because they see it for the house of cards it has become.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 3:02:58 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
By the time we exit Iraq, the US will be spent economically much like Britain was at the end of WWII.


I realize we are all too stupid to understand your proof Michael, but perhaps you might be so kind as to share it anyway.
 
Keep in mind that taking the entire cost of the military serving in Iraq, and attributing it to the war, is a dog that will not hunt. It wasn't like the planes, tanks and troops were going to be free of charge otherwise.
 
Please indulge us that aren't as smart as you.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 3:13:25 PM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

Please indulge us that aren't as smart as you.


Admitting the truth is the first step in realizing it.

Since you are at best an academic with little grasp of the real world, let me explain a few real world ideas.

Lets look at a tank and how they are used normally.  A few are left at a training ground and get the shit beat of them and a tiny amount of spares are used to keep them up at running at some minimal level.  The rest are pretty much left unused and will last forever.

Compare that with shipping them all to Iraq and running them daily in the most abrasive and destructive environment imagineable.  Do you know what the cost of a replacement set of tracks costs for an Abrams?  How about an engine?  Or for that matter a new guntube?

I am sure, being an academic that you grasp the concept of  "opportunity cost"  is all about although clearly your grasp doesn't extend to the real world or you would have picked another tack to come at me.  The money we have spent in Iraq isn't like WWII were much of it was spent on developing new technology and the entire home front was managed to create unmet consumer need to fuel the economy at wars end.  Instead it has largely gone into the pockets of a few corporations and their boards and done nothing to boost American competitiveness nor to improve the foundations of our economy. 

Before you go mentioning the stock market or GDP, remember we had both functioning while we had slaves and no matter how high those two went, it didn't mean jack shit for most people.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 3:16:54 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Caitlyn,

I don't know why but I suddenly wondered if you were from Texas and low and behold, you are.  Explains a lot of what you are being fed in school.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 3:18:04 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I just don't want my Taxdollars paying for the "U.N." anymore.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 3:26:36 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		The M1A1's and M1A2's currently in Iraq, were scheduled to be updated and refitted as M1A2 SEP anyway.
 
I'm really looking to be impressed here ... can't you do any better?

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 3:29:17 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		Nope, can't do any better than that because I am pretty sure those are the only equipment we are using in Iraq.   Lucky for our troops we have people like you watching out for them otherwise we might hear that they are living with rats and sleeping in their own shit.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 3:37:52 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		You cave like a Frenchman, dear ... and throw insults like a Paris taxi driver.
 
You could have mentioned the M2A3 Bradley. Those are being chewed up. Of course they were scheduled to be replaced by the M3A3 and Stryker ... but what does that matter.
 
Facts, are facts ... right?

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 3:38:45 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmKY

You have any facts to back up this erronous belief?
 

Yes but they are clearly over your head or you wouldn't have to ask this question.


Insulting, dismissive, sarcastic comebacks don't support your position.  They just make you look like an ass.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmKY

It is in China's interest to have a strong US economy.
 

Until it isn't and that time is fast approaching, and I just love people who think of themelves as realists who's argument for lying on their belly before a beast is "don't worry, they don't want to eat us, they are a nice doggy"  The moment China's internal market can sustain their economy is the moment they flush the US down the drain and end us as a superpower, all without firing a shot, something Szun Tsu would be oh so proud of.


Interesting thought, although I'm not sure how you would logically support it, giving examples of similar economies in the world and history, and connecting it to the politics of resources, supply and demand.

*shrugs*

But nice sound bites.  Have you ever run for office?

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmKY

India will be one of our biggest allies in this century.


India, unlike China, is basing its economy on the CREATION of high tech, not the slavish production of it.  Guess who's economic model that USED to be?  People competing for the same piece of the same pie don't make the best allies.  India has its own nukes and isn't going to fear China enough to suck up to us all that much.


Another interesting concept backed up only slightly with any facts or historical discussion.  Ya know ... you almost sound like you believe that a national economy is basically something like England had during the Industrial Revolution. And zero-sum, at that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmKY

Russia will stay mired in inefficiency and political troubles in trying to subdue its lost possessions on the Eurasian landmass, a stronger China, and have it's hands full in extending it's political control over Europe. 
 

There is some truth in this but natural gas will only get you so far.


True.  Hence the "have it's hands full".

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmKY

The debt isn't a major factor in limiting US growth and is a positive factor for international stability.


So you bemoan "tax and spend" democrats but don't mind if republicans "borrow and squander" and create unimaginable debt?  Of course the whole house of cards fall the minute people dump the dollar because they see it for the house of cards it has become.


The debt isn't "unimaginable" at all.  You can look it up at the Congressional Budget office any time you wish.

CBO Historical Data: 

The historical data presented here for revenues, outlays, and the deficit or surplus are for fiscal years 1962 to 2006. ... The table titled "Surpluses, Deficits, Debt, and Related Series, 1962 to 2006" (Table E-11) also presents estimates of potential and actual GDP.

The data are available in pdf or in a spreadsheet.

I don't particularly like any debt.  I don't particularly think that any government has the right to my money (i.e. taxes), either, be the Dimocrats or Rethughlicans in office.

The question, however, is what effect the debt has on the world (and US) economy, and whether or not it is some kind of bombshell waiting to go off.

I heard the same arguments in the 1970s.  I'm still waiting for that darn fuse to get to the bomb.

Still waiting.

FirmKY


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Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 3:46:29 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

 Explains a lot of what you are being fed in school.


Versus the BS that you are trying unsuccessfully to feed us here?

FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 3:47:00 PM   
Seatonstomb


Posts: 71
Joined: 4/7/2005
Status: offline 		I can see plenty of reasons why America should be thrown out of the UN:
going back to the 80 attacks on merchant shipping in Nicaraguan waters.
Attacks on various nations Grenada, Panama, Afganistan, Iraq, Libya and Iran.
Shooting down inocent passenger aircraft of other nations
Breaking Arms Embargos.
I'm sure people can add to the list


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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 3:48:16 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		You haven't even begun to see the level of name calling that Michael can sink to.
 
My foster mother uses a saying (she was a prosecutor for many years), that people don't change,  only modus operandi.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 3/15/2007 3:49:47 PM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 4:00:58 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

You haven't even begun to see the level of name calling that Michael can sink to.
 
My foster mother uses a saying (she was a prosecutor for many years), that people don't change,  only modus operandi.


Very true.  I think his last name was a more accurate depiction of his inner soul than his current one.  He changed his name, but not his "crappy" attitude.

As far as his name calling ... I've yet to have an extended "bout" with him, but he talks like a piker.  All flash, and little substance or staying power. 

I think his profession has given him a god-complex.

I willing to disabuse him of that belief, seeing as I'm the real thing .... 

FirmKY




_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 4:01:43 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Seatonstomb
I can see plenty of reasons why America should be thrown out of the UN:
going back to the 80 attacks on merchant shipping in Nicaraguan waters.
Attacks on various nations Grenada, Panama, Afganistan, Iraq, Libya and Iran.
Shooting down inocent passenger aircraft of other nations
Breaking Arms Embargos.
I'm sure people can add to the list


I completely agree ... please kick us out right away.
 
Then again, that's sort of like getting kicked out of a McDonalds. It isn't like there is anything actually worth eating anyway.

(in reply to Seatonstomb)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 4:08:50 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Lets look at a tank and how they are used normally.  A few are left at a training ground and get the shit beat of them and a tiny amount of spares are used to keep them up at running at some minimal level.  The rest are pretty much left unused and will last forever.

Compare that with shipping them all to Iraq and running them daily in the most abrasive and destructive environment imagineable.  Do you know what the cost of a replacement set of tracks costs for an Abrams?  How about an engine?  Or for that matter a new guntube?

I am sure, being an academic that you grasp the concept of  "opportunity cost"  is all about although clearly your grasp doesn't extend to the real world or you would have picked another tack to come at me.  The money we have spent in Iraq isn't like WWII were much of it was spent on developing new technology and the entire home front was managed to create unmet consumer need to fuel the economy at wars end.  Instead it has largely gone into the pockets of a few corporations and their boards and done nothing to boost American competitiveness nor to improve the foundations of our economy. 

Before you go mentioning the stock market or GDP, remember we had both functioning while we had slaves and no matter how high those two went, it didn't mean jack shit for most people.


That's it?  That's all you got?

How about looking at the GDP versus costs of the military - including the war costs in Iraq and Afghanistan - and comparing it to fiscal outlays during ... say ... any other time during the Cold War?  During the Vietnam war?  Korean war?  WWII?

Anything?  Anything at all?

geez.  You are easy.

FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 4:13:18 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		With regard to "wearing out" tanks that will definately NOT have a negative consequence in that productive hi tech directed investment and employment will be required to replace them.

With regard to Federal debt, that may be a different matter.
Has so much ever been held by "foreigners" who may well call in their loans at their convenience. NO ?.

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 4:27:33 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

I completely agree ... please kick us out right away.
 
Then again, that's sort of like getting kicked out of a McDonalds. It isn't like there is anything actually worth eating anyway.


There was never anything worth eating at the UN because it was set up to feed the chefs and not the customers. The reason the US gets pissed off with it is because it doesn't serve up what the US wants. While the US might pay for the lion's share of the UN, it agreed to do so at a time when it thought it could write the menu and now it can't, it wants to take its pans home.

The UN needs reform and if the US leaves and the UN collapses it will only have to be reinvented in some other form and the US will find itself wanting to deal with it. The reason the US can't get support in Iraq is because it told everyone to fuck off and it didn't need them and then what do we hear? Bush, Rumsfeld and the other vampires telling the international community it is their duty to help. Chirac's had the best answer....'I told you so.'

France still has the best chefs. Whatever their shortcomings, dining in Paris must be the nearest to heaven on earth.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/15/2007 4:30:41 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 4:42:23 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with you on one level, the United States is only interested in a United Nations that will be a tool of American foreign policy (which I believe was part of the OP, or a followup thread).
 
This has nothing to do with isolationism. I'm certainly not for isolationism. I think a reformation of the UN, without the United States, would be a positive step. It would give this group a power base, possibly in the ball park with the United States ... or at least reasonably close. This would have to be a better arrangement than what we have now, where we all pretend that the "Security Council" is a conglomeration of equal nations.
 
By the way ... Chirac's "I told you so" would have meant more, if he had the strength to admit it, the many times he has been completely wrong. He is no more than a French version of President Bush, in my view.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: UN & NATO - 3/15/2007 4:54:51 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

By the way ... Chirac's "I told you so" would have meant more, if he had the strength to admit it, the many times he has been completely wrong. He is no more than a French version of President Bush, in my view.


Actually Chirac is worse than Bush, in the honesty stakes anyway, if you believe all the stories and the moment he retires and doesn't have the protection of his position, it looks like he'll be in court. A strange fucking country where the President can't be prosecuted for aledged crimes.

I agree with you, I think the UN would be more successful if the UN formally recognized the strengths of each country rather than pretend there is an equality. A bit of realism might encourage a little realism. Most resentment is caused by the lack of honesty because people aren't fooled and they probably think more is being hidden than probably is.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 60
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