Introducing your vanilla partner...

Introducing your vanilla partner... (Full Version)

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MadameBette -> Introducing your vanilla partner... (4/4/2005 8:43:26 AM)
On Tuesday I will be doing a presentation on "How to introduce your vanilla partner..." to my local BDSM group. I've done so much research that my eyes are crossing! The some of the best information and suggestions were gleaned right here. I want to thank all the people who have shared their wisdom and knowledge with others on these boards. I have several handouts prepared: movie list, books, and web sites for resources. Rather than have it all be didactic, I will have some role play also: 1) a Dom on a blind date. 2) a sub coming out to his long time wife, and 3) A guy whose GF just asked him to dominant her. He calls a 'BDSM hotline' for advice! This is my outline: Of course, I will expand on each during the meeting. Anybody have anything they'd like to add? Suggestions: 1) If you haven’t already, try to put a little kink in your sex lives. 2) Look at a few erotic clothing sites, and which have undertones of BDSM to it. Or take her to Frederick’s Of Hollywood at the mall. 3) Get some movies that have a BDSM theme in a good light and watch them together. 4) Keep all discussions and explorations light and fun. 5) Keep it vanilla at first, then let it slowly slide over to BDSM. 6) Help them to understand that it isn't all about the sex, and that moving slowly is a good thing. But don’t act the lifestyle expert. Play it as if this is fairly new to you, too. 7) Do NOT use terms like BDSM, S&M, Power Exchange, Dominant, submissive or anything like that. 8) Be prepared. Have some factual information handy. Download some articles. 9) Get some books. 10) Don’t rush them. Give them time to digest and absorb what you’ve told them. 11) Don’t make BDSM the topic of all your conversations from now on. 12) Don’t hit them with a ‘wish-list’! 13) Don’t ‘let it all out’ at once. Bring it up, gauge their reaction, and then wait a bit. You can always add a little more when they are ready. 14) Be supportive especially regarding the social and cultural roles they may be used to. 15) Be aware of the old "he said/ she heard" conundrum. Thank you, Hickory! He says: "I've discovered that I have feelings for you that go deeper and are a little different than what we have had before." She hears: "You are not meeting my needs." 16) Use the forums such as at Collarme.com. Let him/her discover, look, poke around, if he/she has questions encourage him/her to register and post a question. 17) When they are ready, encourage then to meet with and talk to others, such as at LILNR meetings. Bette

GentleLady -> RE: Introducing your vanilla partner... (4/4/2005 7:13:00 PM)
Sounds like a good layout so far. You might want to schedule a second presentation for Dommes coming out to boyfriends or husbands and a female submissive telling her husband. That one might have additional problems with the perception that a female submissive is automatically more sexually active. She would want to be much more careful how she tells her husband. Just a thought because your lineup had all males telling females. Gentle Lady

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Introducing your vanilla partner... (4/4/2005 7:21:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadameBette 5) Keep it vanilla at first, then let it slowly slide over to BDSM. I don't get why people do this if they know they are kinky and aren't in a relationship with someone already? Aren't they setting themselves up for disappointment by dating nilla or pretending to be nilla with their date? I date nilla, but they fully know who I am and what I'm into straight up. It's different if you discover you're kinky while already IN a relationship, but otherwise... quote: 12) Don’t hit them with a ‘wish-list’! 13) Don’t ‘let it all out’ at once. Bring it up, gauge their reaction, and then wait a bit. You can always add a little more when they are ready. Great points here, and one to emphasize. Coming out is a PROCESS. You've had the advantage of time to learn and explore, they haven't.

topcat -> RE: Introducing your vanilla partner... (4/4/2005 8:03:10 PM)
M. Bette- Give my regards to LILnR <g>. I rarely attend these days, but I had actually planned on going tomorrow, untill some more pressing matters came up. Sorry to be missing your presentation. Your preperation looks excellent, and your talking points well thought out- it's a wonderful, welcoming group, and I am sure you will do fine. if you'd like, feel free to use my handout from a similar presentation I gave the group about five years ago-please do credit it to 'Lawrence' Stay warm, Lawrence Sure, you can ease someone into anything, but the amount of effort involved would be tremendous, and I'd say you'd likely be looking at two or three years before there's really any payoff to it. If you were willing to defer your rewards to that extent, this would be my approach. Judging form what you've said, I take it that you have some level of relationship with this subject, and that she expresses a willingness to participate in the process. That's actually a huge first step out of the way. For starters, don’t use any jargon for this stuff- when you label something, you give it a string of associations in the others head, many of which maybe negative. You are going to have to revert to light bedroom bondage for at least 3-4 months, to build a foundation of trust. You are also going to have to do a lot of work to make she that she has a good time with it. A good tactic is it have regular, vanilla sex two or three times to every incident of bondage, and when she's tied up, make damn sure that it's great sex for her. Go heavy on the aftercare, eat her till she cries, make her breakfast in bed, tie her up and shave her legs, draw her a hot tub afterwards or before. Create a situation where she WANTS you to tie her up. If something doesn't go well, never express anger. Calm disappointment, taking the blame on yourself, will go a long way to shaping her response to the next step. "Gee, girl- I'm sorry. I thought that would have been really great for you. I liked it- thanks for letting me try it." Make any pain play you introduce VERY light, and make it a side bar to whatever else you are doing. Spank her, a little, gently, and then go on with things, or make it a short, light flogging, and then gently and tenderly fuck her. Always let her know that you wanted more, but thank her for what you did. Debrief her after every scene- not immediately, but after a few hours, or perhaps the next day. What worked for her? Why was something scary? What if you had done 'B' before 'A' instead of after? If you play it right, you will create a mindset where she feels safe and treasured, and is aware that you want more of what, so far, has been a pleasant and reasonable interaction. She will express willingness for more, and once the 'thin edge of the wedge' is in place, you'll be able to introduce more and more intense levels of work into the relationship. It takes time. Time and Patience, Time and Patience and Work. Focus, commitment, dedication. An awareness of the others innermost thoughts, drives and desires. An exacting level of technical skill and the unerring ability to apply it. It takes Mastery.

MadameBette -> RE: Introducing your vanilla partner... (4/5/2005 8:38:58 PM)
Dear Lawrence, Your points are good also. I think I was present at that presentation of yours. LnR is a very welcoming group and we had a good turnout: The usual crowd and a half dozen or so new faces! I had a lot of fun doing it. We had some great role play, including Richard as a vanilla, asked to Dom his GF. - He doesn't know what to do, so he calls the 'BDSM Hotline'! Sopia played a vanilla wife... And there was a couple on their first date... Actually, you were missed! Richard mentioned during the discussion period that you had always had some good stories about dating vanillas... We have met. A long time ago at Thunders. I loaned you a pair of jumper cables... (for his friend's car folks...!!!) one night after the meeting. Please join us again soon. Bette

MadameBette -> RE: Introducing your vanilla partner... (4/5/2005 9:12:04 PM)
Dear GL, I realized yesterday that I had largely focused on male subs and their mates, and included some information on female subs. Thank you for the suggestions though. I noticed in my research that the advice given to females is very different from that given to men. Both sexes and orientations (dominant/submissive) are reminded to consider social and cultural roles of the prospective partner. For example, the 'wife' may see being asked to Domme as an unnatural role if she was raised to expect the man to be the head of the household, and therefore see the sub as ‘less than’. WE know that’s not true, but vanillas may perceive it that way. Or most guys are taught to respect their GF or wives and ‘hitting’ them, even if she asks for it, may be difficult to overcome. Et cetera. From what I’ve read: The men are encouraged to take it slow, not to push, avoid topping from the bottom, cool it on the toys and wish list. The women seemed to be told: tell him what you want, stress how good it feels, buy toys, rent bondage videos… even ‘top from the bottom’ until he can do it. I hadn't thought aboout the sex angle. Thanks for bringing it up. It was a really good meeting with a lot of opinions from other experienced members of the group that rounded out any points I missed. We even had several ‘first-timers’! So the interest is there. Thanks again for your input. Bette

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Introducing your vanilla partner... (4/6/2005 5:27:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadameBette WE know that’s not true, but vanillas may perceive it that way. Or most guys are taught to respect their GF or wives and ‘hitting’ them, even if she asks for it, may be difficult to overcome. Et cetera. I'm not so sure you can say "we" know it's not true, how often do you see/hear people in the scene talk about what men and women are supposed to do and how Ds follows that natural line and how many sadists have trouble accepting and acting upon their desires? A lot of conflicts and issues I see in the scene are directly related to people having sexist ideals about behavior in the scene.

dsamethyst -> RE: Introducing your vanilla partner... (4/6/2005 7:31:08 AM)
Lawrence.... I do hope that you at least enjoyed the pressing engagement [sm=kiss.gif]

MadameBette -> RE: Introducing your vanilla partner... (4/6/2005 11:09:27 AM)
quote: A lot of conflicts and issues I see in the scene are directly related to people having sexist ideals about behavior in the scene. Yes, you're right. I was tired last night when I wrote that and thinking in terms of the ideal. So I'll amend that to say, many of us have a better understanding of various orientations and how they may or may not relate to people's roles in their everyday lives. It rankles when I hear sexist attitudes among those in the lifestyle. In a perfect world, we’d all have tolerance and understanding. But the world isn’t perfect. I still grit my teeth when I hear some Dom say that all femdoms are unrealized subs. Let me just get my whip and I’ll explain it to you again… Of course, that’s not the answer, but it is a fun fantasy. Gawd, I am feeling evil today! I have got to try not to take things so seriously. Bette

GentleLady -> RE: Introducing your vanilla partner... (4/6/2005 9:22:43 PM)
Glad I could help MadameBette. One of the side benefits of giving that kind of lecture is that the participants end up examining their own cultural assumptions and roles when they listen to the radically different advice given to the opposite gender. Gentle Lady

LoneGoddess -> RE: Introducing your vanilla partner... (4/7/2005 1:05:46 AM)
Easing a man into a submissive role (say a relationship where in the woman is Domme already) and the man isn't necessarily submissive, is a piece of cake usually. Most men have an innate desire to please their women. And I have turned a seriously fair share of vanilla macho men into utter submissive pussycats in my lifetime. It's like taking candy from a baby. If a woman is smart enough to be a dominant in the first place, I doubt she'll need a class into working her feminine wiles on a man and earning his submission from him, he'll hand it to her on a platter in most cases. Easing a man into dominating when he has a power role at work, may backfire no matter how much a woman may want him to dominate her. Odds are good he'd like to turn that over to her at home and in the bedroom. People need balance, they get tired of leading all the time. It's just a known thing, and that's why Pro Dominas biggest group of clients are the power men of the world: Doctors, Lawyers, CEO's and the like far more than blue collar men. If your man is blue collar, he may be more apt to dominate you at home. I just posted this about easing a non Domme wife into the role without the pain and betrayal involved in saying "I wish you'd dominate me, or I fantasize about you dominating me"... Seems no one takes into account how a wife feels when the husband of how ever many years comes home one day and lays this bombshell at her feet. He's submissive, he wants his itch scratched and he's waited until he thinks the right moment to say it and she freaks out. But usually not for the reason she's saying out loud. Out loud she'll say you need counseling, or something. On the inside she feels like her entire marriage has been a lie. Particularly in the bedroom where the betrayal of intimacy hurts more than anything. Resentment alone will keep her from ever being his Domme. We'd like to think we are with open minded partners, who like to try new things but women more than anything do not deal with hearing that their sex lives to date with a man have been less than satisfactory, not living up to expectations and women are more apt to say, "adios" and file for divorce over that betrayal. I wish you luck with your classes Bette but regardless of the good intentions, it may cause an undue level of friction in people's marriages that had they gone about it in more subtle ways might have not hurt anyone and maybe made those dreams come true. PARTICULARLY for the submissive male coming out to a female partner. As I hear it everyday, the mistakes made coming out to wives... wishing they'd dominate. Take notes gentlemen this is for those of you who haven't spilled the beans about your submissive needs yet. DON'T. Don't ever. Ready now? Good. What a submissive gentleman can do to scratch his itch to be submissive and possibly engage his own wife/lover into dominating him: SUBMIT! You don't have to tell her what you're doing, in fact, don't. JUST BE SUBMISSIVE. Oh my God, it's so simple! With all the workoad of living in today's two income households what are you doing to lighten her load and treat HER as the Goddess you wish her to be? Are you bending over backwards to make her days beautiful more memorable and make her feel loved and adored? Are you asking her daily what you can do to make her life more pleasant? Are you running her bath, giving her foot rubs and massages, pampering her with oils? Are you jumping up to do the dishes after dinner? Are you taking the kids off her hands? Are you being a man? Real men do housework, because they know that a happy woman who has energy at the end of the day will have it to expend on the one who made her life more pleasant, hopefully that's you. A woman who works full time, takes the kids to soccer practice, does laundry, etc. has ZIPPO desire to dominate anyone, especially since like our man here who posted did, he made it one more CHORE for her to do in her busy schedule. I can promise you if she entertains the idea of doing it, it will feel like a chore that she is humoring you in doing for you. That is just one more thing to resent you for. Don't go there. Offer your submission in every way you can. Worship her, let her know you'll do anything she wants, but do it after you've taken a large chunk of her work load off her shoulders, when she's refreshed and rested. Happy women are far more apt to take that lead you want her to take. Submissive doesn't mean doormat, she needs to know you are still a man, but showing your surrender to her higher wisdom and feminine power may inspire her in ways you can't even imagine. You don't have to use the terms (submission, domination) in fact leave off all the BDSM lingo. It's really not needed and may hinder the process. Then someday, you might be able to accidently leave a copy of Mistress Lorelei's "Mistress Manual" out on the coffee table and say a friend came by and forgot it ... you'll call him in the morning to come and get it and leave the room so she can pick it up in her own due time out of curiosity... A point I want to stress here is NEVER PUSH, CAJOLE, PROD, ETC... that's NOT SUBMISSIVE BEHAVIOR, and it'll backfire in your face if you do. Good luck boys. ~LG

MadameBette -> RE: Introducing your vanilla partner... (4/7/2005 2:52:22 PM)
quote: I wish you luck with your classes Bette but regardless of the good intentions, it may cause an undue level of friction in people's marriages that had they gone about it in more subtle ways might have not hurt anyone and maybe made those dreams come true. PARTICULARLY for the submissive male coming out to a female partner. As I hear it everyday, the mistakes made coming out to wives... Dear LG, Actually, unless they have an indication that the partner will be receptive, I agree that in many cases it’s might be better left unsaid. However, it was the topic people wanted discussed. I prefaced my remarks with all the negatives: It could change your relationship forever and not necessarily for the better. Once it’s out there, you can’t take it back. There may be divorce and custody issues in the future and ‘coming out’ could seriously hurt in that respect. They were encouraged to take a good look at their relationships and it’s dynamics before proceeding. And cautioned that they might not find what they are seeking in that particular relationship and may have to look elsewhere. I also stressed that it’s not about converting others. Either their mates have leanings in this direction, or they don’t. It’s not SSC to try to force… Also, I made a plea: if you are not yet in a committed relationship, you owe it to your prospective partner to reveal this side of you BEFORE making it legal or before the other person has made a big investment of time and emotions. Just the hard facts. If it's an important part of your life - you need it in some respect whether it’s just once in a while, weekly, or in a full-time D/s setting – then it needs to be brought up and discussed. Trying to submerge the person you are inside is at best a short-term remedy. The feelings/needs will resurface eventually and will still have to be dealt with. But I gave them what they wanted to hear about. ‘Service’ submissives could probably get along as you suggested, but there’s no denying the experience is enhanced by knowing your partner knows what you are doing and why. Doms/subs/slaves who need a more physical expression of their kink, (flogging, etc) obviously will have to find a play partner. Should they seek someone outside the relationship? This was beyond the scope of our topic. (The time allotted was only an hour and a half and with all the discussion, it went over two hours.) We only touched briefly on stereotypical roles. This is another area for exploration. And as you said, “It’s also not being very submissive to push, cajole, prod”. That’s another whole topic to be covered. One I’ll call the non-submissive sub! Bette

EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: Introducing your vanilla partner... (4/8/2005 6:06:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadameBette That’s another whole topic to be covered. One I’ll call the non-submissive sub! Bette Usually what's known as a "do-me sub"

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