RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!!

RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (Full Version)

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denika -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 2:19:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KnightofMists Within the D/s dynamic it is often stated that a Dominant has a responsibility to protect the fulfillment of a submissives needs. However, it is also often stated that a Dominant is not obligated to fulfill the wants of a submissive. First... do you agree with this line of thought? secondly... So... If a Dominant never fulfilled any wants of the submissive. Would it reasonable to expect the submissive to stay in the relationship? I wonder if it is not a need to fulfill the wants of a submissive to some level. As I pondered this line of thinking... (besides the obvious that every situation is subjective)... I was considering that needs perserve our existence... but it is the fulfillment of wants that may bring a sense of happiness and fulfillment that is beyond a level of just existing. Maslow theory speaks alot to this in many ways .. but I am wondering what are your thoughts on this topic. I don't think that is an obligation of a Dominant, we are obligated to do things like pay our taxes not be nice, that is a gift not a duty,. it is about give and take, at least IMO, if the Dominate feels he has no responcibility at all to fill any of the wants of his partner it is going to be a very unhappy and one sided relationship and I wouldn't expect either to want to stay in it. A good healthy relationship each partner will (or should) have a desire to meet each others needs, or assist in helping to find a way to have the needs/wants fulfilled if it is something the other can't or doesn't do. Rob doesn't feel obligated to go out of his way to do things he knows I will enjoy, he does them for personal joy in seeing me happy the same as what I do for him. I have seen a few relationships where things are done out of obligation and not love or joy and you can usually tell pretty quick, denika

blushingflower -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 2:38:13 PM)
I think that the reason we say that the Dominant is responsible for meeting the needs of the submissive is because submissives give power over to the Dominant, and so the person with the power also has the responsbility (as we know from watching Spider-man). Especially if you have a 24/7 dynamic and the submissive doesn't work outside the home. There are certain physical needs I can meet for myself- shelter, food, clothing (though Daddy pretty much supplies me with all my food, and I stay with him even though I have my own place. He's also paid for medical care for me). Daddy fulfills many of my emotional needs, such as needing to feel useful, needing to feel loved, needing physical contact. He also fulfills some of my wants, and if he didn't fulfill any needs or wants, I'd be a very stupid girl for staying with him. Certainly I don't expect him to meet all my needs and wants- he can't get me the perfect job, and while he has bought me clothes, I don't expect him to completely outfit me. He can't fulfill my desire for girltalk. He's an introvert, I'm an extravert. So I have other friends (though not many) that I can turn to if I need to spend my weekend outside the house. A good Dom fulfills the wants of the submissive, but on his terms, not hers. I can ask to be beaten or fucked, but he can always say no. If he wants to beat or fuck me, "no" isn't an option (except if there's a good reason). Ideally, what the Dom wants and what the sub wants match up, so that in serving the Dominant's pleasure, the submissive gets what she wants. If the submissive gets none of the things he/she wants, then said submissive ought to look for a new Dominant.

blushingflower -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 2:55:20 PM)
quote: Her to sit in my lap and cuddle……...to sit in my lap and cuddle See, that's a need for me- not sitting in the lap, per se, because I always feel self-concious allowing another to support my weight, but the cuddling. I need it. If I don't get a certain amount of non-sexual physical affection, I get depressed. Not just sad, and I may not even know that I'm depressed because I won't necessarily feel blue, but I don't have any energy, I don't want anything- I'm not hungry, nothing's interesting, all I want to do is sleep (partly because that's the closest to cuddling I can get when solo). I'm addicted to human touch, and I go into withdrawal when I don't get it. I eventually stop wanting it in a way that I'm aware of, but then when I get it again I realize how much better I feel. And this makes sense, since humans are primates, after all, and primates are generally social creatures.

BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 5:07:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: FukinTroll Very good question KoM. I will address the sub/slaves needs first. Shelter, food, blah blah blah… As I have stated before his/her wants are irrelevant to the dynamic. Me indulging wants is just window dressing and tools to the dynamic. Now that that is out of the way I will get strait to her wants vs my needs. I need………………………………..she wants To Dominate………………………...to submit To pull her hair……………………...her hair pulled To treat her like a slut occasionally…to be a slut occasionally A great helpmate…………………….to be a great helpmate An intellectual slave………………...to be respected as an intellectual A slave who hungers to be more…….to be more, learn more, etc… Her to sit in my lap and cuddle……...to sit in my lap and cuddle Fuk’n divine pillow talk……………..fuk’n divine pillow talk I could probably go on for some time about my needs and how all her wants are irrelevant so people can understand just what kind of villain I am. Disclaimer: All thoughts and practices are owned by FukinTroll for president, a NWO corporation. Void where prohibited. YMMV I agree with the line of thinking of Mr. Troll. I am looking for that ideal partner where their submission to me and fulfillment of my wants is fulfilling their wants. The relationship, to me, at least is supposed to be symbiotic in a way. This is why I find the concept of "negotiation" in power based relationships to be a bit on the peculiar side. Okay, it took posts in several related threads for me to "get it". I understand what the two of you are saying and agree with you in that respect. Making my Master happy and making His life easier is my priority and does fulfill a want and a very powerful need for me. What I'm not understanding (maybe I'm just being dense here - someone thump me upside the head if I am) is why it seems from some dominant's posts that this is supposed to be the soul source of a your slaves fulfillment? Are they not supposed to want other things that also make them happy and bring them pleasure?

velvetears -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 6:56:37 PM)
i don't think the dom is obligated to, but i do think if he cares for his sub he should see that she is also happy in the relationship. Eventually, over time, if someone never has any of their wants satisfied they will start to feel devalued and probably want to leave. i know there are some who will say making their dom happy and attending to his needs is what their "want" is, but generally i think most subs are in the middle somewhere. The whole need vs want thing is very subjective. Obviously food, water, shelter, clothing are needs. But some may argue love is a need as well, or sexual release - others will disagree. i think any dom who continually denies his sub her wants is selfish, but on the flip side there are probably many subs who would find that attractive - to each their own i suppose.

mstrjx -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 7:36:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel What I'm not understanding (maybe I'm just being dense here - someone thump me upside the head if I am) is why it seems from some dominant's posts that this is supposed to be the sole source of a slave's fulfillment? Are they not supposed to want other things that also make them happy and bring them pleasure? I'm not being contrary, so please don't read this as if I am. A slave became a slave because their relationship was such that it made sense. Service, in whatever fashion, is generally regarded as being fulfilling in and of itself for a slave. I view extraneous 'wants' as not being in place in the relationship already as a loss of a slave's 'place'. Having said that, if there are any other 'wants' that come up, it is the responsibility of the Owner to be able to discern those and then make a determination whether fulfilling that is a valid option. Jeff

cloudboy -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 8:25:49 PM)
quote: Within the D/s dynamic it is often stated that a Dominant has a responsibility to protect the fulfillment of a submissives needs. However, it is also often stated that a Dominant is not obligated to fulfill the wants of a submissive. First... do you agree with this line of thought? A dominant can commit himself to meeting his sub's needs, but the dominant can make sure the HOW, WHEN, WHERE, and WHAT are determined according to his own plan. By splitting the apple this way, the needs of DOM and SUB seem quite synomous to me. quote: So... If a Dominant never fulfilled any wants of the submissive. Would it reasonable to expect the submissive to stay in the relationship? No.

Domin8tingUrDrmz -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 8:44:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit quote: ORIGINAL: FukinTroll A slave who hungers to be more…….to be more, learn more, etc… Okay, it took posts in several related threads for me to "get it". I understand what the two of you are saying and agree with you in that respect. Making my Master happy and making His life easier is my priority and does fulfill a want and a very powerful need for me. What I'm not understanding (maybe I'm just being dense here - someone thump me upside the head if I am) is why it seems from some dominant's posts that this is supposed to be the soul source of a your slaves fulfillment? Are they not supposed to want other things that also make them happy and bring them pleasure? I think Troll said it very eloquently. What MORE could you possibly WANT? If you are speaking of material objects, perhaps it isn't slavery you should be seeking. Any Owner who wants for you to expand yourself, to grow and to learn, usually wants that for you in areas outside of BDSM as well. For instance, any slave I take on, I want them to be college educated, to have independent thoughts, and have the ability to provide their own happiness. The reason I want this is twofold. I do not want to be bored to tears by my slave; also, if anything should happen to me and I can no longer care for them, I want them to be self-sufficient and not become homeless or otherwise struggle. edited because I am still new to using the quote feature.

MadRabbit -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 9:53:00 PM)
Sure, its all right to want other things. Nobody is perfectly selfless. I view those "other things" as "treats and rewards" rather than "things I HAVE to do". The problem with "things I HAVE to do" is they tend to turn the tables in power exchange. As I said, there is things I expect a person to need from me in the relationship. For example, they need me to be dominant, they need me to provide direction and structure, and they need me to notice the things they do for me. Just like I need them to be submissive, to obey and follow my directions, and to serve me. These aren't basic survival needs, but rather needs that need to be met for the relationship to stay intact. If these needs aren't being met, then why should we be in a relationship together? If you decide you need love from a relationship, and the love isn't there, why stay in the relationship? If you need dominance and I am not providing that, why be with me? Now, moving past that into the realm of "wants", as Mr. Troll pointed out, the relationship is supposed to be symbiotic to a degree. Pleasing me pleases her. If it wasn't symbiotic and was "Okay you do this for me and I'll do that for you", well....hmmmm....that sounds a lot like my past vanilla relationships. You love "Sex in the City". I hate "Sex in the City". You go above and beyond when doing the dishes one night so as a reward I decide we are going to watch a small marathon of "Sex in the City" episodes. You want something that I didnt want, but I provided it as a reward for good behavior. This is drastically different, however, from...lets say..."I am only doing the dishes if we watch "Sex in the City"" The first example sounds like my ideal D/S couple. The second sounds purely vanilla. This is why I don't believe in negotiation TO A DEGREE. If I want oral sex all time and the submissive doesn't want to give oral sex any of the time, if we negotiate to make it work, then am I really dominating or are they really submitting? If what I want is more than they can give, we should both find someone else. Negotiation for me is to establish your limits and boundaries, not to get you to do the things I want like some Doms use it. Your going to do what I want because I told you to do it and its really as simple as that (though not as a childish =) ).

MadRabbit -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 10:00:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel What I'm not understanding (maybe I'm just being dense here - someone thump me upside the head if I am) is why it seems from some dominant's posts that this is supposed to be the soul source of a your slaves fulfillment? Are they not supposed to want other things that also make them happy and bring them pleasure? Oh yeah...and to answer this...there is quite a few Doms on Collarme.com who subscribe to the "Its All About ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME" philopsophy.

FukinTroll -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 10:02:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel Okay, it took posts in several related threads for me to "get it". I understand what the two of you are saying and agree with you in that respect. Making my Master happy and making His life easier is my priority and does fulfill a want and a very powerful need for me. What I'm not understanding (maybe I'm just being dense here - someone thump me upside the head if I am) is why it seems from some dominant's posts that this is supposed to be the soul source of a your slaves fulfillment? Are they not supposed to want other things that also make them happy and bring them pleasure? BRN, I am going to try to put this the best I can. Mind you I have been putting in some hard hours and am pretty tired. I need a slave in my life that has a rich full life. That does not need me or anyone else. She will bring to my life a diversity of interests, ideas, hobbies, etc… What is important to me is that her wants and needs in our D/s dynamic are met by my wants and needs. It is when we look at wants beyond our dynamic and the quintessential basis of our relationship that they are irrelevant to our dynamic. For example if she wanted to spend a year in Tibet, I would be very supportive of that internally. Externally I would encourage her to research and have a very informed opinion of such a journey before it ever became a serious discussion. Now I would internalize this for a few reasons. 1) I do not want to get her hopes up should it be a bad idea. 2) I would want to be able to divert money for this journey without her knowing. 3) I need to be sure our relationship was strong enough for her to make this journey. 4) I want the power to blindside her with the itinerary, tickets, etc… Tibet would be a want that I could conceivably reward her with. It is superfluous to our dynamic and irrelevant to our dynamic. It is simply her dream or goal and my only excitement would come from the growth that she would receive from such an experience. Because it may seem superfluous and irrelevant to me does not make it any less valid or exciting. However my first priority is meshing our day to day dynamic and addressing the rest as needs be.

KnightofMists -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 10:04:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Oh yeah...and to answer this...there is quite a few Doms on Collarme.com who subscribe to the "Its All About ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME" philopsophy. (Feign a shocked look) you say that like it is a wrong thing w

hisannabelle -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 10:05:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BRNaughtyAngel What I'm not understanding (maybe I'm just being dense here - someone thump me upside the head if I am) is why it seems from some dominant's posts that this is supposed to be the soul source of a your slaves fulfillment? Are they not supposed to want other things that also make them happy and bring them pleasure? i think mstrjx's paragraph summed up my personal feelings on this better than i ever could... quote: A slave became a slave because their relationship was such that it made sense. Service, in whatever fashion, is generally regarded as being fulfilling in and of itself for a slave. I view extraneous 'wants' as not being in place in the relationship already as a loss of a slave's 'place'. theoretically, he could refuse me my wants - he could tell me to drop out of school, we could go ahead and move like he wants to, etc. i would be okay with that. i'd miss school, i'd miss the career i'd like to have, but for me, being of service is fulfilling in and of itself. if he routinely ignored and trampled all over the other things i like to do, i might wonder if we're good for each other, but in general, i would be okay with giving up many of my wants for what he wants from the relationship, and i would not feel unfulfilled. that said, one of the reasons i am collared by him is because we do fit together so well and we both end up getting many of our wants as well as our needs fulfilled by the relationship without there being contradiction between what i would like to do with my life and what service he desires from me.

FukinTroll -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 10:08:01 PM)
Chuckles It would seem we were both composing around the same time.

hisannabelle -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 10:10:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FukinTroll For example if she wanted to spend a year in Tibet, I would be very supportive of that internally. funny that you added this in there. spending time in tibet will be part of my studies eventually, and it's something that i want to do as a scholar and as a practitioner of vajrayana...i would eventually like to teach tibetan buddhism at the college level. one of the biggest issues i had with my previous dominant was that he didn't support what i wanted to do with my life for what i always felt were reasons not healthy for the relationship. anyway, i just thought it was pretty cool that you used that as an example. /off topic rambling.

MadRabbit -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 10:12:24 PM)
Lol...and saying the same thing more or less.

FukinTroll -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 10:17:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle funny that you added this in there. spending time in tibet will be part of my studies eventually, and it's something that i want to do as a scholar and as a practitioner of vajrayana...i would eventually like to teach tibetan buddhism at the college level. one of the biggest issues i had with my previous dominant was that he didn't support what i wanted to do with my life for what i always felt were reasons not healthy for the relationship. anyway, i just thought it was pretty cool that you used that as an example. /off topic rambling. I do hope your D is supportive this go round. It is such an awesome opportunity for growth and if your dynamic is solid... you can hit those knees regardless of distance.

FukinTroll -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 10:18:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MadRabbit Lol...and saying the same thing more or less. That’s why I was chuckling.

hisannabelle -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 10:22:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FukinTroll quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle funny that you added this in there. spending time in tibet will be part of my studies eventually, and it's something that i want to do as a scholar and as a practitioner of vajrayana...i would eventually like to teach tibetan buddhism at the college level. one of the biggest issues i had with my previous dominant was that he didn't support what i wanted to do with my life for what i always felt were reasons not healthy for the relationship. anyway, i just thought it was pretty cool that you used that as an example. /off topic rambling. I do hope your D is supportive this go round. It is such an awesome opportunity for growth and if your dynamic is solid... you can hit those knees regardless of distance. he is very supportive :) he's actually theravadin, not tibetan buddhist, but having spent time studying buddhism in thailand it's something he understands - he's also pretty open about me pursuing my own interests, academically and spiritually, and this is something he's known is important to me.

FukinTroll -> RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! (3/17/2007 10:26:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle he is very supportive :) he's actually theravadin, not tibetan buddhist, but having spent time studying buddhism in thailand it's something he understands - he's also pretty open about me pursuing my own interests, academically and spiritually, and this is something he's known is important to me. Excellent. May I ask how that works in your dynamic, like my example above?

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