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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/17/2007 10:37:08 PM   
hisannabelle


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From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll
Excellent. May I ask how that works in your dynamic, like my example above?


because my traveling to tibet will most likely be tied up with my schooling, he encourages me in that way and eventually will be there to help me work out the logistics when the time comes. for him, i think it is very similar to what you get out of it - he enjoys it because he knows i will enjoy it and that it will enrich me. it's not so much a physical reward he is giving me, because he won't be involved in the actual trip planning, funding, and all of that, but an emotional one, because it's a want that i have that he is supporting me in, in every way that he can. it's something that he could conceivably deny me, but he chooses not to for the excitement for my own growth, i think. i'm not sure if that answers your question very well.

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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/17/2007 10:38:45 PM   
FukinTroll


Posts: 6277
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From: Under a bridge
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hisannabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll
Excellent. May I ask how that works in your dynamic, like my example above?


because my traveling to tibet will most likely be tied up with my schooling, he encourages me in that way and eventually will be there to help me work out the logistics when the time comes. for him, i think it is very similar to what you get out of it - he enjoys it because he knows i will enjoy it and that it will enrich me. it's not so much a physical reward he is giving me, because he won't be involved in the actual trip planning, funding, and all of that, but an emotional one, because it's a want that i have that he is supporting me in, in every way that he can. it's something that he could conceivably deny me, but he chooses not to for the excitement for my own growth, i think. i'm not sure if that answers your question very well.





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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/17/2007 11:08:13 PM   
missjnine


Posts: 1
Joined: 3/10/2006
Status: offline 		If those are your only wants from a submisim man thenb you are the wrong person im talkin to.

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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/18/2007 1:32:01 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
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quote:

So... If a Dominant never fulfilled any wants of the submissive. Would it reasonable to expect the submissive to stay in the relationship?
I wonder if it is not a need to fulfill the wants of a submissive to some level.


It occured to me that this is a poorly worded question because the construct is either-or: aka, stay in a bad relationship or leave it. It never even ventures into the direction of how to improve a D/S relationship which may be out of allignment.

(Doms don't want to be doing things that cause Subs to leave them, and Subs don't particularly enjoy making DOMs feel unempowered or disrespected, or breaking up up with them.)

So, the better question is, what do you as a DOM expect a submissive to do when she carries around the pain and neglect of not having her own needs met? The question could be broadened further, too, what do you as the DOM expect a submissive to do when following your orders or direction makes her unhappy in particular case?

Psssst: The answer is not: "communicate." The answer is either: "what to do" or HOW to communicate.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/18/2007 1:39:43 AM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/18/2007 4:40:31 AM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
So, the better question is, what do you as a DOM expect a submissive to do when she carries around the pain and neglect of not having her own needs met? The question could be broadened further, too, what do you as the DOM expect a submissive to do when following your orders or direction makes her unhappy in particular case?


Nice point. First, however, not all relationships are perfect all the time and that may be the case you describe. When a relationship is at the point where the Dom knows he/she is giving orders to an unhappy slave, something has already happened to make the relationship not one where the Dom is trying to meet the needs of the slave. He is viewing the sub in a different way. Possibly, the Dom has become somewhat tired of the arrangement, but the sub wants to continue in any way possible. (Of course, the opposite is possible, too.)

So to specifically answer the question of what does the Dom expect the submissive to do, and this sounds cold, but the primary intent is to make the sub leave. He has decided.

I’m not condoning such a method, but it happens and may even have beneficial consequences for the sub if the Dom sees to what length the she will go to please him, while knowing, she is not happy following the particular order.

That is the advice to the sub, if she has any hope of continuing. To do just as ordered, even though she is not happy, because the imperfect phase of the relationship may pass just as it came. There is something serene and noble about a slave who endures such times that this particular Dom admires.


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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/18/2007 6:55:51 AM   
BRNaughtyAngel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll
 
I need a slave in my life that has a rich full life. That does not need me or anyone else. She will bring to my life a diversity of interests, ideas, hobbies, etc… What is important to me is that her wants and needs in our D/s dynamic are met by my wants and needs. It is when we look at wants beyond our dynamic and the quintessential basis of our relationship that they are irrelevant to our dynamic.


Thank you Troll for taking the time to help me understand your point of view.  And now that I do, I can say that this sounds very similar to our dynamic, plus it gave me a personal "aha" moment.

Thank you Rabbit, Jeff and everyone else who responded as well.  It's just been one of those weeks where I was having trouble seeing the forest for the trees!  

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domin8tingUrDrmz
If you are speaking of material objects, perhaps it isn't slavery you should be seeking. 


Well I'm not seeking slavery as I already am a slave to my Master, but no, I was not referring to material things.  Although my Mustang is definitely a 'need'.     I was just trying to understand where others were coming from.

Thank you all again.

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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/18/2007 7:45:38 AM   
SirDominic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiplashSmile

I'm going to post without reading the whole thread before hand.

As with any relationship, there is a mutal need and desires involved.
If those needs and desires are not met enough, then POOF the
relationship simply comes to an end.

In the extreme cases, of Hardcore Master and Slaves. The master
desires complete control and the slave wants no control. So there
is not much issue in terms of on going wishes or desires. It's being
totally 100% satisfied.

Now for the softer side, more to the likes of Doms and Subs.
Many subs have not surrended themselves to the point of not
wanting anything. So with that said, I would have to say a wise
Dom will learn what pleases his sub, and will take control of those
things inorder to have control over the relationship. Else, if the
needs of the sub are not meet at a reasonable level. Game Over
Dom lost control, and the sub ends the relationship.

This is my take on D/s dynamics on two different levels.


Can't agree with your examples, Whip. They are too black & white. It is not a case of hard and soft as you describe it. There are hardcore Masters who desire complete control and the slave wants no control. That does not mean that the slave's wants and needs are not also being met. When a Master and slave are well matched it is because they both get what they need from the relationship. The Master may control when and where the slaves wants and needs are met, but they aren't ignored.

Yes, there are Master/slave relationships where the slave's only desire is to satisfy their Master's needs, with no thought of their own. I expect such relationships are in the minority.

In my relationship, for example, I have full control, my slave desires no control. But she knows I know her better than she knows herself, and I see to it that her wants and needs are taken care of. Often wants and needs she didn't even know she had.

It really is all about compatibility between Master and slave. As long as both are getting their wants and needs satisfied (even if that need is to have no needs), the relationship will thrive.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/19/2007 4:02:45 AM   
Domin8tingUrDrmz


Posts: 1269
Joined: 4/8/2006
From: Portland Metro, Oregon
Status: offline 		BRN, I am pleased to hear you have the relationship that you desire.  Although I was replying to your post, I was referring to "the collective you" and not "you" in particular with my reply.  I really should learn to substitute the word "one" when I am speaking in this manner , one day perhaps.

As far as your Mustang, I can imagine it becoming a 'need' real quick .  It can be difficult to let go of nice things - sometimes though, one must (I nearly said 'you' again, but caught myself...yay me!).

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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/19/2007 8:37:59 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Ya know, they thing I hate most about being really busy with work lately is that I get to all the really good threads late!   Here's my $1.95 worth (inflation ya know).

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

Within the D/s dynamic it is often stated that a Dominant has a responsibility to protect the fulfillment of a submissives needs. 

However, it is also often stated that a Dominant is not obligated to fulfill the wants of a submissive.

First... do you agree with this line of thought?

Yup.  However, one aspect of this point that is often overlooked is just what the statement "needs" actually includes.  Most seem to think it covers just food, water and shelter.  Human's are more complex than that.  Being social creatures we have a variety of emotional and social needs as well and those need to be taken into account when the above line of thinking is applied.


quote:

secondly...

So... If a Dominant never fulfilled any wants of the submissive.  Would it reasonable to expect the submissive to stay in the relationship?
I wonder if it is not a need to fulfill the wants of a submissive to some level.

Yes an no... this one is a bit more complicated.  Its not a need in the same way the above needs are.  The need for food, for water, for protection from the elements, emotional needs for affection, approval, etc... these are all specific needs.  They are all instances where we can point to one specific thing and say, "Okay, I need that, without it I'm not going to be able to function effectively as a healthy human being."

In this second case you're moving towards identifying another need, but this one is harder to pin down because its not as obvious as "water" or "food".  Do we have a need to have our wants fulfilled... not exactly.  But there is a need underneath all that that we haven't given a name too, and that's the real need that should be fulfilled.

Let's try this from another angle... what purpose does fulfilling some of those wants do for us?  What do we get out of it?  When we ask that we start separating our wants into different groupings, we start getting to the root motivations which is where we will find our answer.  For example, I may want to have my back scratched, it'd feel really great... but if I don't get it scratched its never going to prevent me from effectively functioning as a healthy human being.  On the other hand, I want to play the banjo (which I've been teaching myself to play).  Now I'm not going to shrivel up and die if I don't play the banjo, and by itself, it really is just a want and I could live a happy life without ever learning to play (and have prior this).  However, those who know me well know that the motivation for learning to play the banjo comes from something else in my life and is part of reconnecting with my grandfather and my heritage... and that part is a need (one of those human social / emotional needs I mentioned above).  My point here is, using myself as an example, to illustrate the difference between a want that serves no purpose other than gratification (having my back scratched), and a want that serves as a method of fulfilling a deeper need (playing the banjo / reconnecting with my past).  Now that need could be met (and presently is) by learning to play the banjo... or possibly through other things that equally address the underlying need, because gosh gollly, us humans are complicated like that.  And this is where things get tricky for the dominant, because we then have to examine the various wants of a submissive and try to look beneath the surface to see if there's anything deeper too it.  Is it just one of those things where they want it because golly wouldn't that be nice... or do they want it because they're trying to express a deeper need that maybe even they haven't figured out yet.  That's not always easy to do (and often is not), which is why I put the caveat on the responsibility of attending to the needs of a submissive, to the best of the dominant's ability.  Because we are not perfect and I assure you submissives, we dominants will screw up from time to time.  There will be times we just don't get it, we're blind as a bat, you've got a need and until you spell it out for us in large flaming letters we just aren't going to see it.  We're human too... who knew.   But, that's not an excuse for us dominant not to try our best, because we should be, and if we aren't then we're failing to be who we ought to be.



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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/29/2007 12:48:16 PM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline 		Forgive me for blowing life into an older thread but i was going thru some things today and this thread resurfaced for me and i had a thought to express:
 
While i certainly don't know everything yet on what it means to be slave, i don't think there is a generic definition and i don't think it is defined by "no limits", losing one's identity, or giving up such useless terms as "rights and privledges". i think the process of becoming slave to the One is about the stripping of all the layers that do not enhance your core being and the rebuilding of the yin aspect of the Master's yang, to becoming one - not a seperate identity. A slave is nurtured because she is part of the whole, her basic needs and wants are the same as the Masters therefore non-existent as a seperate entity. So as the Master takes care of each part of himself, so the slave is taken care of because she is the part that completes him in the dynamic. Is this not why a Master chooses a slave instead of a submissive?
 
To me, this is worth a lifetime to strive for and so i would challenge the want for seperatism.  Any thoughts are appreciated...
 
 

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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/29/2007 2:08:16 PM   
Devilslilsister


Posts: 1262
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		you should post more often padriag - infalation or not

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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/29/2007 4:58:52 PM   
barefootprincess


Posts: 66
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline 		Another good topic.
i think needs and wants are about the same thing. If a person has a relationship, most things have to be met in order to keep with the harmony of said relationship.
But what i still am trying to figure out is, how a dom can have a submissive and then have another.
Poly doms..... who has the ultimate say on what is right in the relationship*s*. Does one *submissive* have more rights(for lack of a better word) to thier needs and wants being met than the other??

Does it matter to a dom?

< Message edited by barefootprincess -- 3/29/2007 5:01:39 PM >

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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/30/2007 6:08:03 AM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline 		barefootprincess,
 
might i suggest you post your question in the "polyamorous" section? i revised an old thread here and i doubt your question will be answered here but hopefully it will get the attention it should in that catagory :-) it is a good one~
  j

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It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 3/30/2007 6:26:43 AM   
jauntyone


Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

Within the D/s dynamic it is often stated that a Dominant has a responsibility to protect the fulfillment of a submissives needs. 

However, it is also often stated that a Dominant is not obligated to fulfill the wants of a submissive.

First... do you agree with this line of thought?

Greetings
 
I can agree with parts of it. I do agree that Master is in no way OBLIGATED to do do anything; much less pander to the selfishness of the 'I wants'
 
However, I dont see him as being responsible for the 'protection' of my fulfillment. It is my responsibility to see that I am getting what I NEED from the relationship. If I am not, then it is my responsibility to bring it up respectfully. Master can either decide if it is indeed a need; or rather an 'I want'. I can accept his decion regarding this; or I can not. Either way, it is not his responsibility, it is mine.
 
quote:

So... If a Dominant never fulfilled any wants of the submissive.  Would it reasonable to expect the submissive to stay in the relationship?

For myself, I would not leave simply because Master did not give in to me being selfish. So to answer your question, yes, I believe it is reasonable to expect the submissive/slave to stay.
 
I am very careful to keep my needs seperate from the 'I wants'. I have often found that Master is really quite generous when it comes to keeping me happy, so many of my 'I wants' are filled anyway
 
I wish you well
 
melissa
 

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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 4/1/2007 4:04:37 PM   
barefootprincess


Posts: 66
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline 		Thanks dawntreader,
I did post a poly thread.
barefoot

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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 4/1/2007 4:16:55 PM   
BabyNyla


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Joined: 9/15/2006
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I was watching flip this house last night ... and this company treats their employees so well ... they have a masseuse who come into the office every Wednesday to give the employees massages and they have maids who clean the houses of the employees once a week.  They do this because happy employees are always more productive, which means they end up selling more houses and making more money when they do this.  I think for some submissives it's the same concept.  The more you are praised and doted on ... and occassionally given *treats* the more excited you'll be and will want to please even more ... much like the carrot and the horse philosophy at the beginning of the thread.


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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 4/1/2007 4:47:11 PM   
spanklette


Posts: 882
Joined: 2/22/2005
Status: offline 		FR
 
I suppose this is the reason we sift through potential mates until we find the one(s) that truly suit us. They meet our needs in addition to our wants and, mostly, without much effort. We match likes, dislikes, kink, age, education, intelligence, emotional intelligence, etc.
 
Do I think it's a Dominant's responsibility to meet every want? No. Nor do I think they would keep a submissive very long if they didn't meet any of them.

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RE: Wants are Wants till they become Needs???!!! - 4/1/2007 5:35:30 PM   
HisSongstress


Posts: 103
Joined: 3/2/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

 i think the process of becoming slave to the One is about the stripping of all the layers that do not enhance your core being and the rebuilding of the yin aspect of the Master's yang, to becoming one - not a seperate identity. A slave is nurtured because she is part of the whole, her basic needs and wants are the same as the Masters therefore non-existent as a seperate entity. So as the Master takes care of each part of himself, so the slave is taken care of because she is the part that completes him in the dynamic. Is this not why a Master chooses a slave instead of a submissive?
 
To me, this is worth a lifetime to strive for and so i would challenge the want for seperatism.  Any thoughts are appreciated... 


What a wonderful way to put this. I had breakfast with a submissive friend of mine...we both are quite new. In our conversations, she has noticed that I am leaning more and more toward considering myself a slave....and she asked "why?--how do you define that?"

For me, being a slave is about being an extension of him, therefore, my needs fit within his. I am not always successful with this...as insecurities arise from time to time...but this is my goal...one I look forward to working toward for a very long time.

best!

...song...

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Before discovering bdsm, my motto was "Like me or bite me." But here, everyone seems to think that is an invitation.

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