RE: What is "Leadership?"

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SusanofO -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 12:01:34 PM)
I did not mean in any way to put a damper on the discussion, I am just yammering. Hope more folks write in, IMO, it's an interesting thread. - Susan

Marc2b -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 12:04:06 PM)
The most important quality of a leader, the one which without all other qualities are meaningless, is that the leader understands that they are the servant of those they lead. That they hold their position not for their own benefit but for the benefit of those they lead. Popeye, you said that you had a Captain that, "we would march to hell and back for." I suspect the reason why is because you knew that he would do the same for you, am I right?

popeye1250 -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 12:28:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b The most important quality of a leader, the one which without all other qualities are meaningless, is that the leader understands that they are the servant of those they lead. That they hold their position not for their own benefit but for the benefit of those they lead. Popeye, you said that you had a Captain that, "we would march to hell and back for." I suspect the reason why is because you knew that he would do the same for you, am I right? Correct. And I also think you're right about being a "servant", humbleness is something a leader should have too. Those things seem to be sorely lacking in Washington, D.C. They serve "special interests." No problem Susan.

Real0ne -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 12:41:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b The most important quality of a leader, the one which without all other qualities are meaningless, is that the leader understands that they are the servant of those they lead. That they hold their position not for their own benefit but for the benefit of those they lead. Popeye, you said that you had a Captain that, "we would march to hell and back for." I suspect the reason why is because you knew that he would do the same for you, am I right? Correct. And I also think you're right about being a "servant", humbleness is something a leader should have too. Those things seem to be sorely lacking in Washington, D.C. They serve "special interests." No problem Susan. leadership is he/she who can tell the most best and biggest lies and get the most people to believe them! good government like a good slave does not top from the bottom :)

popeye1250 -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 1:56:49 PM)
I don't know about that, Abraham Lincoln was a pretty humble guy.

ferryman777 -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 3:12:03 PM)
Thank you, Sir, good to know somebody is reading them;...... Orin Hatch has had, for a number of years, a bill which calls for the 'born american' to be stricken from the constitution; as has some other republican. These two guys keep changing, adding, ammending, and presenting their bills. It is a viable and real agenda. One person laughed and scoffed at my statement; commenting "They are not going to change the constitution just for Arnold'. Which I don't think so either. But Arnold amassed over 250 million dollars in personal income; 20 million coming from a copyright infringement suit against IGT, one of the largest gaming companies in the world, which they pleaded no contest and paid him; this just piror to his CA governorship. It isn't about Arnold, it's about breaking the constitution, thus allowing for whoever is out there, we don't know about. Arnold has the visual popularity, celebrity status, the backing of the Buffets, the very close association of the Bush. He is forever noticable, a hero to the american public. Any critism of Arnold's qualifications and the replies are.....give him a chance, you can't reject him because he was an actor, look at Reagan. Now, this has been going on for some time, feelers have been put out for response factors. In the Movie, Judge Dredd, with Sandra Bullock and Sly Stallone; there is a segment where, they are passing by some buildings, Sly asks what are those buildings, Bullock answers, "oh those, that one is the Arnold Swartzenegger presidential library." I think it was in the Judge Dredd movie. The Hatch bill is real, and is there now. Bush sr remarked in a press conference once, of how troublesome the constitution is. Bush 2 made somewhat the same remark, when a reporter, accused him of being a dictator; he said he wasn't, and it would be alot easier if it weren't for the constitution. Patriot Act one & two are the law of the land; and will replace the constitution, my firm belief, not that I want that, but there is no stopping the process; stalling, but it will happen. My opinion on leadership is this.......there are NO qualities or intelligence, or strenght of a forthright character to becoming a 'leader'; It is all position, and who you know; the amount of money you have giving you credibility and importance. Leaders do not think of themselves as servants to anyone, (that is the hype they feed the masses and the peasants) - much less the citizens they are supposed to be leading. Napoleaon was a leader, became not a king but an emperor, when the pope was to crown him, Nappy took the crown and crowned himself. My kind of guy. Hitler was a leader, Time magrag voted him the man of the year. Stalin, Chaiman Mao, Bush SENIOR; Geo Patton; Eleanor Roosevelt & Franklin, Churchill; the Ayatolla Kumani; Ross Periot could possibly have been but was not allowed; basically, leaders are those who impact upon the world, have position by either wealth, or the gun, and both. Thank you popeye for this thread, it is a substantial learning item.

SusanofO -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 3:27:38 PM)
I think Arnold had a lot of public appeal when he first ran for office, and he still knows how to use it, but I can get disenchanted when I see people vaulted to office based on things like money and celebrity alone, even though I know this will probably always happen. He may be a nice guy, but I really never thought Arnold was all that bright, and to me, if someone is going to be making decisions that affect the lives of millions, I don't mean to sound like a snob, but, IMO, the ability to make very considered decisions based on a lot of pertinent iformation (not just information that always supports one side of an issue) does count for something. One big reason I tended to trust Clinton, (and this might be a weird peculiarity on my part, and isn't going to sound very democratic of me) is that he read something like 7 books a week, in his so-called "spare time", and probably could have written some of the ones he read, as well, IMO. George Bush may be fairly bright, but he is certainly not what I'd call an information hound, and takes a lot of afternoon naps at the White House, I hear. So IMO, a lot of how well-thought-out some supposed leader's decisions might be, is also how hard they are willing to work at making them, as well. I think someone can sometimes lead based on charisma alone, but I always find it relatively more comforting, when I think they have some the ability to make very considered decisions, operating behind all of the galmour (even if those decisions don't always turn out spectacularly well, for a host of reasons). If they don't, I always hope they have advisers that do. - Susan

seeksfemslave -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 3:47:41 PM)
True leadership in a modern political context is almost impossible. The the most successful candidate is that one who will offer the least offence to most "floating" voters. At the time I thought JFK had it, when I view newsreels of him now I cant see it at all. Big difference in public projection between him and LBJ tho'., but LBJ as I understand it "achieved" more due to his congressional experience. I watched Obama on an Oprah show, can you say that ? and for sure he has got all the anodyne , ie inoffensive phrases/anecdotes designed to cause NO offence and reveal very little. This will be true of all the other candidates. Won't it ?

SusanofO -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 4:05:09 PM)
I think it is not easy to say what will happen with Obama, his career is still in its embryonic stages. LBJ was also a very pragmatic political animal (some might even say, depending on the issue, prone to things like "dirty politics" to get his agenda through), IMO, very bright, and honestly, IMO really tried to do the right thing in terms of launching Kennedy's agenda (the "war on poverty", continuing w/racial integration in schools), despite the fact a lot in the U.S. at the time, were opposed to major parts of it (he didn't care, he launched these programs anyway, he just plain did not flinch at doing that), and even though in some folks' eyes he may have screwed some things up, too (dragging out the Vietnam war). I am not saying Kennedy wasn't a leader (I think he was), but as far as long-term leadership in terms of a record, I tend to agree with you. Kennedy, IMO, was glamorous (and has been somewhat glamourized over the years, due to having been assassinated). His record was also shorter, because he was killed. He dealt w/some tremendously painful medical issues the world never knew about, because he'd been trained from childhood to compete, and put up a good front, no matter what was happening to him personally (which I found admirable. I read about it, and apparently he was on pain meds a lot of the time, and even when he was, he was still in so much pain sometimes, he found it hard to even do things like walk. Few people knew it, because like FDR (Franklin Delano Roosevelt) he made sure he was rarely caught by photographers appearing physically "weak". - Susan

ferryman777 -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 4:24:40 PM)
Hello Susan; I don't believe Arnold has any qulifications for being any sort of leader whatsoever, learning of his background; he becomes close friends with the influencial of the world. He has no talent, is not an actor, his bodybuilding career was orchestrated by the Weider Bros. who needed a personality to sell their products, who paid him, paid his living expenses, while he trained, that was his job, to train. Lee Haney, as well as others have more, MORE body building awareness than Arnold ever had, yet Haney is not in the limelight. Haney won more titles than Arnold as did this Brit who garnered more Mr. Universe Titles than anyone. Once, in Las Vegas, Arnold was walking down the hall, and a passerby shouted at him, 'Hey Nazi"; Arnold peed his pants, actually peed his pants. The incident was reported, he was ridiculed, and then it vanished. He posed nude, showing his penie to the world for Robert Maplethorpe. His father was a card carrying nazi brown shirt, nazi appointed police chief of the Austrian village A. grew up in. Arnold was close friends to Kurt Volheim, having gone to Austria to vigorously campaign for Volheim to become president and later having sent Kurt a personal invitation to be best man at his wedding. Arnold made a number of pilgrimages to Argentina, ....to make 'travel shorts'. Volheim is accused of being a nazi war crimmal; and they have undisputed proof. Running for CA govenor, he was critized for having no expertise of law, and government, and Maria came to his aid, making sure everyone 'knew' he was studying at night. In an interview, this during his Conan era; he was asked, admonished, for remarking that he admired Hitler. He qualified his remark saying he did not admire Hitler, but that of Hitler coming from obsurity to become the Grand Chancellor of Germany. He was also asked what does he consider as the ultimate goal and accomplishment would be of success in his life, since he has now become the most successful boxoffice celebrity in the history of the cineima. His reply was " to be president of the United States." Another question put to him was basically the same, as now that you hold more Mr. Univere titles than anyone, have built a powerful muscular body, and obviously you enjoy and hold in high regard strenght and power, what is you idea of strenght and power. His reply " Ultimate strenght and power is, having control over peoples lives'. Okay, I watched with my own two eyes this interview, and there I saw for myself. The qualities I read in these posts, yours included, are all idealistic, and I would that it be so, for all > Leaders. Humblness, intelligence, ability to make the right decisions in the heat of the fire, being servant of the people etc . Nice, but alas.....just isn't reality. Some one once remarked about Carter...."he was just too good a person to be a president." Leadership is based on Charisma, being aligned with the monied and power brokers of the world. Smart, integrity, qualifications, have no baring on leadership. Fantasy is not reality, and when it comes to what we have ALL been programed to believe is what it takes to be a leader is pure, unadulterated fantasy. To lie, and sell it, ....the lies....like snow to 'Eskimos'. And making people adore you for being lied to and used, having their children die in a war, most horrobly, and yet support the lies.....that is a real quality leader.

meatcleaver -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 5:09:23 PM)
A good leader needs people who are gullible enough to follow him or her. I can't say I've met anyone in my life I'm prepared to follow to the supermarket and back, never mind hell. I recognize that for certain things to get done in life there is a need for someone to be in charge and if I recognize that something needs to be done I'm prepared to be a cog in the machine for as long as required. If the leadership is competent and clear about their strategy to get something done, I'm more likely to not question their ability (which in reality means I'm questioning their ability all the time). I can't think of anything I want to do that makes me in need of inspirational leadership. To die in a war maybe? Though I really don't have plans for that. Giving me a cheque so I can pay the bills is about as much inspirational leadership I need to play my part. Other than that, I am totally suspicious of people who like to lead.

Real0ne -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 7:40:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 I don't know about that, Abraham Lincoln was a pretty humble guy. among other things he took the physical chains off of one color and put legal ones on both

domiguy -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 8:53:53 PM)
The person I'm most excited about is Obama...There is something electric about the guy. It is a long political road to the nomination but I do like the guy. Just finishing up "Dreams of my Father" and I hope this guy prevails. I think he can be tough enough to be his own man, lead, but show the compassion that has been lacking in the Presidency of late.....I think he has the qualities to make people want to do more and better themselves which is a rare commodity.

Real0ne -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/16/2007 9:51:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ferryman777 Leadership is based on Charisma, being aligned with the monied and power brokers of the world. Smart, integrity, qualifications, have no baring on leadership. Fantasy is not reality, and when it comes to what we have ALL been programed to believe is what it takes to be a leader is pure, unadulterated fantasy. To lie, and sell it, ....the lies....like snow to 'Eskimos'. And making people adore you for being lied to and used, having their children die in a war, most horrobly, and yet support the lies.....that is a real quality leader. never underestimate the ignorance of the american people! LOL

Sinergy -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/17/2007 12:53:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ferryman777 It isn't about Arnold, it's about breaking the constitution, thus allowing for whoever is out there, we don't know about. Arnold has the visual popularity, celebrity status, the backing of the Buffets, the very close association of the Bush. He is forever noticable, a hero to the american public. Any critism of Arnold's qualifications and the replies are.....give him a chance, you can't reject him because he was an actor, look at Reagan. Now, this has been going on for some time, feelers have been put out for response factors. I suspect that the Republican party was grooming the Governator to be the future Presidenator. But Monkeyboy and congress got distracted and saw something shiny in the middle east, and blew their chance to modify the Constitution so that Ahnold could be President. Arnold went after the unions in California on the recommendation of Karl Rove. He was handed his ass. He was reelected because people in California know the governor doesnt really have much power to actually do anything, and having the Governator (especially one who was politically castrated) is a status symbol. I am not overly worried about Ahnold, he has gone back to being a governor willing to work with people to get things done, and the Kennedy populist thing is back in his politics. Sinergy

ferryman777 -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/17/2007 7:21:14 PM)
Hi; I remember Iraq one, Bush senior; the speech to the populace; sending our troops into battle;.....the very next day, Bush is photographed 'Fishing'. Now that is the true leader...people commented...not too good for moral of the people,....following week, Bush & Family are photographed in a church service, very Norman Rockwellian. The fishing blunder was dismissed as.... he was under terrific stress because of having to send american boys to battle; he finds relaxation in fishing; it was his moment of solitude, to reflect on the weighty presidential burden of that decision.

Sinergy -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/17/2007 7:24:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ferryman777 Hi; I remember Iraq one, Bush senior; the speech to the populace; sending our troops into battle;.....the very next day, Bush is photographed 'Fishing'. Now that is the true leader...people commented...not too good for moral of the people,....following week, Bush & Family are photographed in a church service, very Norman Rockwellian. The fishing blunder was dismissed as.... he was under terrific stress because of having to send american boys to battle; he finds relaxation in fishing; it was his moment of solitude, to reflect on the weighty presidential burden of that decision. What so many people seem to forget is reality happens as follows. 1) A person decides to do something, bomb Iraq, prevent the homeless, whatever. 2) Time passes. 3) Iraq is bombed, homelessness is stopped, whatever. Fishing is a perfectly legitimate pasttime to engage in during phase 2. But then, I am the guy whose boss told me he was shocked at how much I actually got done since I seemed to spend all my time screwing around. Sinergy

ferryman777 -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/17/2007 8:09:28 PM)
Hi Sinergy; I'm not particularily worried either about Arnold. It will take a few years yet. These plans (changing the consitution) are in the works however, and they have a timetable, we are unaware of. I may not be above the planet if it ever happens, but, as it appears now.....this is how I see Arnold being sold. He is a commodity, when his popularity soared, when he was Conan, he put out the for sale sign. In another interview, and in an 'Unauthorized Biography of Arnold' he is quoted that politics is what future he has planned for his children; all other interests are just a means to the end, that being politics. He also stated that he does not see himself becoming president, but he however, sees himself as the instrument which may allow it to happen for his children, that is...if they choose that for their future of course. Arnold is a cunning manipulator. He amassed a personal mega fortune, made shrewed business investments, one is believed to be owner of 'Gold's Gym'; he sells himself as a human advertisement; when HumVee Corp. wanted the private sector, he was who they approached or he approached them, to push into the private sector. He was the first private citizen to own a hummer, previously restricted only to the military, owns 6 now , I believe, never paid for a one, I understand. He became a restaurantor, coming with partnership of Planet Hollywood; appearing, and leading people believe he was actually preparing dinners, and created items on the menu, even saying he knows nothing of being a 'cook'; except for family barbeques in the backyard; and had to call his mother in Austria for her homemade recipie for apple stroddle. It was all on TV, and news releases. The truth being, Planet Hollywood is owned by some other corporation, who approached Arnold, Stallone, Willis to be spokesmen for the chain; their recomspense was a limited partnership; .....for their image. Neither, Stallone, nor Willis, promoted P.H. to the extent Arnold did. The way he did, could have been construded as false and misleading advertising. Arnold also ran a synicated health news coluum; And hardly any one knows, that when he was working out in Austria, at the local gym there, he was injesting steriods by the crateful, so much so, the other body builders were afraid he would kill himself. One body builder was amazed at the fantastic growth Arnold had achieved in such a short time, enquired, asked ..."what is your secret'. Arnold told him, that at the beginning of every routine he takes a spoonful of sugar, and doubles it every following routine. The guy did it, and almost died. When Arnold was approached as to why he said and, told the guy that; he dismissed it all with a laugh, saying anyone could see I was joking. Arnold's synicated advisory heatlh coluum runs, or ran in every major newspaper in this country up until his seat as govenator. He has also published books on health and bodybuilding. He became govenatator of, what is believed, as the 4th largest ecomomy of the world. Translated....Caifornia can exist as a country unto itself. Any setbacks Arnold is stumped with is usually dismissed, ignored and he just goes on, and on, and on. Example.....when it came to light he was a womanizer, groped women in elevators, and his accusers stepped forward.....he laughed, dismissed them all....he was supported with woman saying...he could grope me anytime he liked....it was a laughing matter of no consequence. Then as his win was assured, he may be embarrassed by this, possibly be a block in the future; he comes with...he will conduct an exhaustive investigation to these sexual harrassment charges. So he conducted an investigation, and guess what.....no substance nor validity to the charges, he thus concluded.

Sinergy -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/17/2007 8:33:26 PM)
No argument here, ferryman777, I would be willing to vote to re-elect him. Hey, the state I live in, controlled by the most partisan and obstreperous congress in the US, with the 4th or 5th largest economy on the planet, is run by the guy who fought Sinbad for christmas toys. quote: ORIGINAL: ferryman777 Hi Sinergy; I'm not particularily worried either about Arnold. It will take a few years yet. These plans (changing the consitution) are in the works however, and they have a timetable, we are unaware of. I may not be above the planet if it ever happens, but, as it appears now.....this is how I see Arnold being sold. He is a commodity, when his popularity soared, when he was Conan, he put out the for sale sign. No argument here. quote: In another interview, and in an 'Unauthorized Biography of Arnold' he is quoted that politics is what future he has planned for his children; all other interests are just a means to the end, that being politics. He also stated that he does not see himself becoming president, but he however, sees himself as the instrument which may allow it to happen for his children, that is...if they choose that for their future of course. While that is a lovely sentiment, and he did marry a Kennedy, he has to convince Congress to change the US Constitution. They had the chance in 2002 and they did not do anything. I dont see it happening any time soon. quote: Arnold is a cunning manipulator. He amassed a personal mega fortune, made shrewed business investments, one is believed to be owner of 'Gold's Gym'; he sells himself as a human advertisement; when HumVee Corp. wanted the private sector, he was who they approached or he approached them, to push into the private sector. He was the first private citizen to own a hummer, previously restricted only to the military, owns 6 now , I believe, never paid for a one, I understand. He became a restaurantor, coming with partnership of Planet Hollywood; appearing, and leading people believe he was actually preparing dinners, and created items on the menu, even saying he knows nothing of being a 'cook'; except for family barbeques in the backyard; and had to call his mother in Austria for her homemade recipie for apple stroddle. It was all on TV, and news releases. Perhaps. I tend to think he is more like Mike Tyson than Donald Trump. He amassed a huge fortune as an action hero in Washington, and he married a woman connected to the biggest political family in the United States. Planet Hollywood never made it off the ground. He wanted to compete with the Hard Rock Cafe and it didnt go well for him. The issue about Arnold's womanizing, etc., is simply dismissed out of hand because he is Arnold. I suppose I have issues with that, but not really. Governorship of California is the highest he can go politically, unless he convinces Congress to amend the constitution, and he will be out in a few years. This is relevant because the governor of California really cannot do anything without getting the agreement of our legislative branch, which Arnold does not have. Sinergy

SimplyMichael -> RE: What is "Leadership?" (3/17/2007 9:41:48 PM)
Jimmy Carter will go down as one of the better presidents the latter half of the 20th Century. It is interesting that people blame him for inflation when he was in office for only 4 years but won't blame anything on Bush. As for the hostages, the only option available to Carter was One would think after the Iraq debacle that pretending Carter could have "done something" about Iran is pretty idiotic. Again, it is funny that no matter how many mistakes are made in Iraq that nobody holds Bush accountable, nobody holds him accountable for 9/11 and yet blame Carter for not doing a better job rescuring them. Most of those people couldn't find the ME let alone Iran on a map. Could it have been handled better, sure but there was a lot riding on it, oil was as big an issue then as it is today. Lets not forget, Carter made some very real changes and implemented them, most of which were brilliant and would have resulted in much better world if Raygun handn't dismantled them. Carter cancelled the B1 as a useless POS and GWI proved him right. Before the morons start blathering about it, educate your stupid ass and find out what the role of the B1 was, same goes for the B2 and think about the difference between a scud and its three support vehicles and an SS18 with none. Carter implemented a policy where the US would not sell front line fighters because gee, we might have to face them AND other countries didn't need to spend aid money buying them. Today we wouldn't need to be going into hock buying F22s. Carter supported and pushed for money for Stealth technology and the F117 along with research into better cruise missles. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, we would be free of the need for foreign oil in three more years except for Raygun and the Republicans. Carter pushed for and got a comprehensive energy plan to end our reliance on foreign oil. Imagine that. 9/11 wouldn't have happened, we wouldn't be in Iraq, when China, Japan, and Europe are starting to panic about energy, we wouldn't be, instead of paying for oil at $70 a barrel to arabs we would be investing in our own infrastructure, employing Americans, spending our money in America. Combine everything Raygun and Bush I & II did and you still don't compare to what Carter accomplished and how it would have changed the world. We still don't know how big the fucking disaster Bush II is going to create because he still might manage to cause the entire ME to burn, there is still time. Here is another interesting tidbit, something most Republicans love to pretend doesn't exist. Under Carter and Clinton, GDP growth was caused by business spending, under Raygun and Bush, GDP growth is caused by government borrowing. They are and will always be the biggest fucking welfare queens ever!

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