RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (Full Version)

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dcnovice -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/17/2007 9:23:37 PM)

quote:

You can't be pardoned until you're convicted.


Nixon was, wasn't he?




farglebargle -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/17/2007 9:26:51 PM)

I think the usage is incorrect. A pardon is forgiveness of a crime and the penalty associated with it.

If you're not a convict there's no penalty to forgive.

Just something else fucked up.




dcnovice -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/17/2007 9:29:07 PM)

quote:

This has nothing to do with Bill Clinton, Sanity.


True, but it wouldn't be an official CM political thread without someone on the right bringing up Bill Clinton.

I can understand the impulse, actually. If I were stuck defending the Bush regime, I'd seek every diverson I could find too.




dcnovice -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/17/2007 9:31:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

She'll have a $5,000,000.00 offer from Hefner before May.


This for me, really gets down to the ugly underbelly which is driving the nonsense about Valerie Wilson.  She is a woman doing a job that is 'traditionally' thought of as many men's work.  The only way that can jive with a certain sect of people is if that woman can fit into another prescribed and comfortable stereo type for them.  She must either be an uber-manly butch dyke type, or she must be the archetypal smarty pants, haranguing 'bitch' woman, who of course is not allowed to have even the remotest scent of sexual appeal.  It is okay for Angelina Jolie to play at being an action packed spy chick, because in the end, she will get her clothes off and your cock can stir while she rolls around being well fucked by some alpha male type at the end like ever good little woman wants and needs (to keep her in line), thus pacifying your threatened ego system

But Valerie Wilson doesn't fit into those neat and comfortable niches you have carved out for your insecurity.  She is intelligent, beautiful, sexually appealing, woman who is well spoken and not at all shrill.  She is a highly respected officer, extremely well  thought of by her peers and superiors (even other James Bondian men who you only seem to be able to equate in this position), is highly decorated and trained in her field, was working on a project that has been called 'critically' important (and actually was instrumental in its founding and implementation), and has worked her whole life, in a career which has great potential personal consequences for her and her loved ones, serving our country.

She is a wife and mother and has never once appeared in public as some sort of whore, media whore or 'girl gone wild'.  You see, she doesn't need to use her beauty and sexuality to feel empowered.  And that pisses you guys right off.. or I would suspect, greatly threatens your own self- empowerment and identity structure on some level.

The chances of Valerie Wilson posing nude for money are pretty much zero. 

I find it more than a little disturbing, how many men (and women), having no other means to make her submit to what YOU want and need her to 'be' in your own minds, resort to this sort of precious pseudo-ass patting condescension.

You can try to turn her into a mindless sex object, so that you can then feel that that is all she is really worth, but I do not think your desires will be rewarded.  And as a woman, I am highly alarmed and offended by the overt and perverse sexism which is so rampantly being displayed by so many here.


Brava, Puella!




puella -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/17/2007 10:20:45 PM)

Hey! You got the case right (brava, as opposed to bravo)!!!!

Bravo to you, doll!




Sternhand4 -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/17/2007 10:49:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

To employ a word I have been using more and more... Ironically, Valerie Wilson can not release her book because the CIA will not clear it as it has to much sensitive information about the COVERT operation she was working on.

All writimgs have to be cleared first as per her and all employee's written agreement..
The authority, for both the contractual secrecy agreement and prepublication reviews, rests on the statutory responsibility of the DCI to protect sources and methods and is found in the National Security Act of 1947 and the CIA Act of 1949 as amended, as well as in Executive Orders 12333 and 12958.
The sole purpose of prepublication review is to assist authors in avoiding inadvertent disclosure of classified information which, if disclosed, would be damaging to national security--just that and nothing more.
http://www.fas.org/sgp/eprint/hedley.html

Why shouldn't she write a book, Sanity?  Because she was outed, she lost her job and income.  She didn't out herself to write a book... and be interviewed by Vanity Fair (which does not pay people for interviews, btw).

Why can this woman do no right, in your opinion, Sanity?  She has done nothing wrong, improper or out of the bounds of her office throughout this entire ordeal.  Why are you trying to make the victim the villain?  You are showing no logic at all and it begs one to ask, what about this woman threatens you to such a degree that you have to try to denigrate her?




juliaoceania -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/17/2007 10:55:26 PM)

I noted that you did not answer Puella, even most of the Republicans acknowledge Valerie Plame's service to this country, can't you acknowledge as much as they did?




puella -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/17/2007 11:00:38 PM)

It is crude in it's quotation but... what can you really expect.

Even W acknowledges Valerie Wilson is covert:


"I want to know the truth," the president continued. "Leaks of classified information are bad things."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/30/wilson.cia/




Sternhand4 -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/17/2007 11:24:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

It is crude in it's quotation but... what can you really expect.
Even W acknowledges Valerie Wilson is covert:

Where in the article does it say that???
 It doesn't,. even the quote you cite doesnt say that.
 read your post

"I want to know the truth," the president continued. "Leaks of classified information are bad things."
I think we all agree leaking classified info is "bad" more importantly its criminal. But how did you make the leap that it means
Even W acknowledges Valerie Wilson is covert:


http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/30/wilson.cia/





juliaoceania -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/18/2007 10:24:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

It is crude in it's quotation but... what can you really expect.

Even W acknowledges Valerie Wilson is covert:



"I want to know the truth," the president continued. "Leaks of classified information are bad things."


http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/30/wilson.cia/



I watched all 4 hours of the testimony after work... I know this is incredibly naive of me, but for some reason I found it shocking that the Bush Admin did not even do a cursory investigation of this matter in the three years since Plame was outed. I just for some reason found it flabbergasting after swearing up and down in front of the American people that he would look into how this happened, he did NOTHING. At least I was surprised until Sinergy reminded me that we are dealing with the Bush Admin, and misrepresenting means nothing to these people.




puella -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/18/2007 10:30:15 AM)

Yes, so did I... so did Congressman Waxman. Somewhere back in the posts I brought that up and was flamed for having used a site someone found disagreeable to post the content of Congressman Waxman's letter informing the administration that this will be seriously looked into. 

6 weeks on the job and lots of oversite, that is a good change at least.




Vendaval -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/18/2007 10:45:09 AM)

It is interesting to go back to the initial news reports in 2003 about
this whole situation.  Thank you for the first 2003 CNN link, puella.
 
julia, I am in agreement with you, 3 years and no investigation
is just incomprehensible.

 
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/30/cia.leak.politics/index.html
 
" The chairman of the Republican National Committee accused Wilson on Tuesday of having his own motivations.

"What I've said is that Ambassador Wilson is clearly -- has a partisan history here," RNC Chairman Ed Gillespie told CNN.

He cited as proof Wilson's $1,000 campaign contribution to Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts, one of 10 Democrats running to replace Bush in 2004.

According to the Center for Responsive Politics, a nonpartisan research group that tracks money in politics, Wilson made such a contribution to Kerry on May 23. A further search showed Wilson also donated $1,000 to Bush on May 20, 1999.

Gillespie also said Wilson is affiliated with "organizations that are opposed to the president's agenda and anti-President Bush."

Wilson has denied a political motivation to his actions.

He told CNN on Monday that his first appointment was by a Republican.
"In actual fact, my first political appointee was as ambassador," Wilson said. "And I was appointed by George H.W. Bush, the first President Bush. So I really am apolitical in all of this. "




Sternhand4 -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/18/2007 11:15:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

It is crude in it's quotation but... what can you really expect.

Even W acknowledges Valerie Wilson is covert:




"I want to know the truth," the president continued. "Leaks of classified information are bad things."



http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/09/30/wilson.cia/



I watched all 4 hours of the testimony after work... I know this is incredibly naive of me, but for some reason I found it shocking that the Bush Admin did not even do a cursory investigation of this matter in the three years since Plame was outed. I just for some reason found it flabbergasting after swearing up and down in front of the American people that he would look into how this happened, he did NOTHING.

What a bald faced lie. If there was no investigation as you claim, how was Scooter indicted and convicted?
The investigation started as an administration (Justice department ) investigation. On 30 DEC 03 the attorney general John Ashcroft recused himself and the agency, and had a special prosecutor appointed Patrick Fitzgerald.
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/doj/comey123003doj-pconf.html
Fitzgerald was charged to..
Fitzgerald has been told, as I said to you: Follow the facts; do the right thing. He can pursue it wherever he wants to pursue it

Also from the article..
 I have today delegated to Mr. Fitzgerald all the approval authorities that will be necessary to ensure that he has the tools to conduct a completely independent investigation; that is, that he has the power and authority to make whatever prosecutive judgments he believes are appropriate, without having to come back to me or anybody else at the Justice Department for approvals. Mr. Fitzgerald alone will decide how to staff this matter, how to continue the investigation and what prosecutive decisions to make.

At least I was surprised until Sinergy reminded me that we are dealing with the Bush Admin, and misrepresenting means nothing to these people.


Try some facts for a change..
 
More importantly, not one person was charged with the leak.
It is clear that someone did leak this to the media, and Mr. Fitzgerald failed to get his man. ( Richard Armitage ) looks to be the real leaker. but the civil case will give us a better insight as all parties are going to be deposed on both sides.
 




juliaoceania -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/18/2007 10:24:44 PM)

quote:

What a bald faced lie. If there was no investigation as you claim, how was Scooter indicted and convicted?
The investigation started as an administration (Justice department ) investigation. On 30 DEC 03 the attorney general John Ashcroft recused himself and the agency, and had a special prosecutor appointed Patrick Fitzgerald.

 
There was no in house investigation through the White House, which has a team that investigates leaks of a sensitive nature. Before you go and call me a liar, you should really know your facts, you obviously gratuitously accused me of telling a bold faced lie when you did not watch the video... in the future it would help if you actually read, watched, or listened to relevant materials before ASS-uming. It is blantantly obvious that you were not familiar with a gentleman by the name of James Knodell

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/03/16/america/NA-GEN-US-CIA-Leak-Congress.php
 
quote:

James Knodell, director of the White House security office, also testified and was criticized by Democrats for not opening an administrative investigation into the leak. Now that Fitzgerald's investigation is complete, Knodell said, he would consider whether an internal probe was appropriate.


It amuses me when those who refuse to do their homework attack those of us who do.
 

 




puella -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/19/2007 8:42:29 PM)

Though I posted this in another thread, it is completely relevant to this one.  It is excerpted from the transcript of the official sworn testimony of the Congressional Hearing:




CUMMINGS: Ms. Wilson, first of all, thank you for your service. Ms. Wilson, even today your work for the CIA is so highly classified that we’re not permitted to discuss the details, but we can clarify one crucial point — whether you worked undercover for the CIA. You said your position was covert but I’ve heard others say you were not covert. In fact, one of the witnesses who will testify a little bit later, Victoria Toensing, is making that same argument. In an op-ed that appeared in the Washington Post on February 18, she says it quite bluntly. She says, “Plame was not covert. She worked at CIA headquarters and had not been stationed abroad within five years.” I know there are restrictions on what you can say today, but is Ms. Toensing’s statement correct?

WILSON: Congressman, thank you for the opportunity. I know I’m here under oath, and I am here to say I was a covert officer of the Central Intelligence Agency. Just like a general is a general whether he is in the field in Iraq or Afghanistan, when he comes back to the Pentagon, he is still a general. In the same way, covert operations officers who are serving in the field, when they rotate back to a temporary assignment in Washington, they, too, are still covert.

CUMMINGS: Is it possible that Ms. Toensing had more information than you do about your work or had access to secret document that you don’t?

WILSON: I would find that highly unlikely, congressman, because much of that information about my career is still classified.

CUMMINGS: On Wednesday night, I know that Mr. Waxman, our chair, and Congressman Reyes, the Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, spoke personally with General Hayden, the head of the CIA. And Mr. Waxman told me that Gen. Hayden said clearly and directly, “Ms. Wilson was covert.” There was no doubt about it. By the way, the CIA has authorized us to be able to say that. In addition, I understand that Chairman Waxman sent his opening statement over to the CIA to be cleared and to make sure that it was accurate. In it, he said, “Ms. Wilson was a covert employee of the CIA.” “Ms. Wilson was undercover.” The CIA cleared these statements. I emphasize all of this because I know that there are people who are still trying to suggest that what seems absolutely clear isn’t really true and that you weren’t covert. And I think one of the things we need to do in this hearing is make sure there isn’t any ambiguity on this point. Just three more questions, did you hold this covert status at the time of the leak? Did you — the covert status at the time of the leak?

WILSON: Yes I did, congressman. Yes.

CUMMINGS: Number two, the Identities Protection Act refers to travel outside the United States within the last five years. Let me ask you this question. Again, we don’t want classified information, dates, locations, or any other details. During the past five years, Ms. Plame, from today, did you conduct secret missions overseas?

WILSON: Yes I did, congressman.

CUMMINGS: Finally, so as to be clear for the record, you were a covert CIA employee and within the past five years from today, you went on secret missions outside the United States. Is that correct?

WILSON: That is correct, congressman.

CUMMINGS: I want to thank you and I hope this committee now has cleared up the issue of covert, whether Ms. Plame was a covert agent, and I yield back.


 




stef -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/27/2007 7:28:30 PM)

I just got around to watching last Friday's 'Real Time with Bill Maher' and his closing remarks were particularly relevent to this discussion.  After a quick look, I was unable to find a transcripts of the show online so I took a couple of minutes to transcribe the closing here. Enjoy.

quote:

You know, not to generalize, but the 29% of the people who still support President Bush are the ones who love to pronounce themselves more patriotic than the rest of us.  But just saying you're patriotic is like saying you have a big cock.  If you have to say it, chances are it's not true.  And indeed, the party that flatters itself that they protect America better, is the party that's exhausted the military, left the ports wide open, and purposefully outed a C.I.A. agent, Valerie Plame.



That's not treason anymore?  Outing a spy?  Did I mention it was one of *our* spies?  And how despicable that Bush's lackeys attempted to diminish this crime, by belittling her service.  Like she was just some chick who hung around the C.I.A..  An intern really.  "Groupie" if you want to be mean about it.


No.  *Big* lie.  Valerie Plame was the C.I.A.'s operational officer in charge of counter-proliferation, which means, she tracked loose nukes.  So when Bush said, as he once did, that his absolute #1 priority was preventing terrorists from getting loose nukes, ok, *that's* what she worked on.  *That's* what she devoted her life to.  Staying undercover for 20 years, maintaining two identities every goddamn day.  This is *extraordinary* service to your country.  Valerie Plame was the kind of real-life secret agent George Bush dreams of being when he's not too busy pretending to be a cowboy or a fighter pilot.


C.I.A. agents *are* troops.  This was a military assassination of one of our own, done through the press, ordered by Karl Rove.  He said of Valerie Plame, quote “She's fair game” and then Cheney shot her.


George Bush likes to claim that he doesn't question his critics' patriotism, just their judgment.  Well, let me be the first of your critics, Mr. President, to question your judgment *and* your patriotism.  Because let's not forget why they did it to her; because Valerie Plame was married to this guy Joe Wilson, who the Bush people hated, because he busted them on one of their bullshit reasons for invading Iraq.  He was sent to the African country of Niger to see if Niger was selling nuclear fuel to Iraq.  They weren't, it was bullshit and he said so.  In fact his report was called 'Niger please!'.


Valerie Plame's husband told the truth about their lie so they were willing to jeopardize an entire network of spies to ruin her life.  Wow, even the mob doesn't go after your family.


Mark Twain said “patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it,” and I say Valerie Plame is a patriot because she spent her life serving her country.  Scooter Libby is not, because he spent his life serving Dick Cheney.  Valerie Plame kept her secrets. The Bush administration leaked like the plumbing at Walter Reed.


In the year 2008 I really think that Hillary Clinton should run for president on a platform of restoring honor and integrity to the oval office.

~stef




farglebargle -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/27/2007 9:36:26 PM)

quote:

Wow, even the mob doesn't go after your family.


That struck me as particularly insightful.





b12345 -> RE: Ruh, Roh. Valerie Plame Wilson WAS Covert. (3/28/2007 11:32:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

Wow, even the mob doesn't go after your family.


That struck me as particularly insightful.




I think it highlights the real damage done here.  Plame's personal loss from this mess is trivial, compared to the potential loss of some of the others involved, and the loss to the intelligence operations as a whole.  Plame's uncovering does not put her life in jeopardy.  However it may very well have already caused CIA assets to be imprisoned or killed.  Assets which took great risks to divulge information of there home countries to us, be it for money, revenge or moral reasons, they had a level of trust that our gov't would put forth an effort to protect them.  Take this hypothetical example:

Col. X of the great nation of CM has information that CM is possibly selling nuclear weapons to the nation of Atl.  Col X is gravely concerned about this possible transaction, and knows that the US may be able to stop this if only they knew.  Col. X contacts US Embassy security in CM to see who he should talk to, and after some vetting forward him to Plame.  Over the next six months Col.X and Plame meet occasionally, and from all outside appearances, and as far as Col. X's superiors it is a merely social visit, with a "ditzy blond American wife of a diplomat."  However Col. X was actually giving the US vital intelligence on the nation of CM's  activities.  After a few months there is no more need for  Col. X and the CIA to work together and they part ways, getting away with the intelligence operation. 

Now 5 years later Plame's CIA identity is plastered all over the International news.  CM's counter intelligence wing takes note of all this and Col. X's superior officer, General Y, remembers back to when Coml. was hanging out with "the ditzy American blond."  Col. X who took great risks to help the US is now secretly tried of treason and killed.  As are several others like Col. X in other countries.   There are reasons why even if she had not been operational in some time, that we do not disclose Agents Identities, especially on a national media level.  It screws things up far beyond the life of the Agent.  Entire intelligence networks can be ruined by this.  And it makes other potential Col. Xs leery of cooperating with us.      However the theory that disclosing her identity to discredit her husband seems like a pretty stupid thing to do.  I would trust the assessment of a CIA connected ambassador far more than someone who is a typical favor appointment ambassador who knows nothing.

B





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