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Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 1:48:12 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline 		There is something going on in another forum I go to and I would like to know what people here at CM think, if you care to share them.
 
This is a BDSM alternative lifestyle forum in my local area. There is a person (I will call Jesse) who was allowed into the forums (it is a group that you need to get permission to join) and after some time on the boards and having attended a couple munches and play-parties, Jesse then informs the community forum that s/he is a vunerable adult.
 
It has everyone in the community freaking out about Jesse attending these event's and has everyone fearing fall-out within the community because of the legalities about "Vulnerable Adult" status and how the community needs to deal with the situation placed before them.
 
Some feel they would welcome Jesse (who is  submissive btw) with open arms and mentor him in the community all the way to people leaving the forum because they are 'Mandatory Reporters'... to people who would not attend or leave play-parties if Jesse were allowed to attend.
 
This also brings up other issues such as who may be considered a vulnerable adult, legally speaking in a court action case and\or any other circumstances and the
consequenses may arise.
 
What do you think?
How would you respond?
Would you not allow Jesse in the forum, munches, or parties knowing he has said he is a vunerable adult and ergo to wit unable to make informed desicions?
 
This community is struggling with this. I would be intersted in knowing what your thoughts are.
 
Thanks, Missy.

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 1:51:38 PM   
MadamTee


Posts: 12
Joined: 9/21/2006
Status: offline 		most interesting ... awaiting responses...

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 1:51:44 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Can it be determined if this is a legal status as opposed to a 'feelable' status, because that is where the reasonable man argument is made, I think.

Ron

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 1:55:07 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with this, what exactly does "vulnerable adult" mean?

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Can it be determined if this is a legal status as opposed to a 'feelable' status, because that is where the reasonable man argument is made, I think.

Ron


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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 1:58:52 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Ditto, vulnerable adult?  Does that mean they have mental disabilities?

A group should have that under control already with waivers.  For an online group, as long as their age is showing in their profile, that should take care of that.  For offline stuff, if he is his own guardian, waivers should be signed just as any other adult would.

If he is not his own guardian, he obviously cannot sign a legal waiver for himself and thus cannot participate in those events without the guardians permission.

For anything that your group does not require waivers for, then there's no issue anyway.

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 2:17:16 PM   
Wildfleurs


Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot
What do you think?
How would you respond?
Would you not allow Jesse in the forum, munches, or parties knowing he has said he is a vunerable adult and ergo to wit unable to make informed desicions?
 
This community is struggling with this. I would be intersted in knowing what your thoughts are.
 
Thanks, Missy.


Based on the definition of vulnerable adult that I found, and assuming that you mean that Jesse is mentally retarded (I'm sorry, I don't know the scientifically or politically accurate term) I would not allow Jesse at my munches or any events I did.  Nor would I participate in any events that allowed Jesse to attend.

BTW this is the definition I found:

Vulnerable adult. A person 18 years of age or older who: is a resident or impatient of a facility, receives services from a licensed facility or a licensed home care provider; however, regardless if they are receiving services or reside in a facility, they possess a physical or mental infirmity or other physical, mental, or emotional dysfunction that impairs the individuals' ability to adequately provide for their own care.

From: http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/police/crime-reporting/vulnerableadults.asp

C~

P.S. - if it were strictly a physical problem then I wouldn't have a problem - I've certainly seen people with a wide range of physical limitations participate in the scene.


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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 2:18:18 PM   
Invictus754


Posts: 521
Joined: 12/16/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

What do you think?
How would you respond?
Would you not allow Jesse in the forum, munches, or parties knowing he has said he is a vunerable adult and ergo to wit unable to make informed desicions?
 
This community is struggling with this. I would be intersted in knowing what your thoughts are.
 
Thanks, Missy.


http://www.nd.gov/humanservices/services/adultsaging/vulnerable.html

One, ask for proof (or find it yourself). 
  1. If it is true, boot them out. 
  2. If it is not true, beat him, then boot him out for lying. 
 
The penalties for taking advantage of a vulnerable adult are pretty stiff and vary from state to state.  Treating them as a sub would probably make most prosecuting attorneys salivate for the chance to show everyone that they espouse America, mom and apple pie by prosecuting whoever "abused" them to the fullest extent of the law.

http://www.mdhs.state.ms.us/fcs_aps.html

http://www.dhs.state.mn.us/main/idcplg?IdcService=GET_DYNAMIC_CONVERSION&RevisionSelectionMethod=LatestReleased&Redirected=true&dDocName=id_005710

< Message edited by Invictus754 -- 3/16/2007 2:28:39 PM >

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 2:18:20 PM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline 		You need him to clarify that status as far as if he has a guardian or not. That will be a complete deciding factor if he does. I would not allow him to continue if he does have a guardian, it's just too iffy. If he doesn't you then have to weigh the benefit of his continued attendance to him vs the group and make a tough decision either way.

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 2:22:42 PM   
Aileen68


Posts: 6091
Joined: 8/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot


This is a BDSM alternative lifestyle forum in my local area. There is a person (I will call Jesse) who was allowed into the forums (it is a group that you need to get permission to join) and after some time on the boards and having attended a couple munches and play-parties, Jesse then informs the community forum that s/he is a vunerable adult.
 

I'm assuming that vulnerable adult is referring to being mentally impaired.  If this is the case then I find it strange that no one seemed to know that he was, even after he attended munches and play parties, until he told the group.  So how impaired could he possibly be?  If there are no problems from the legal end, then why would there be any issue including him since no one had an issue prior to his disclosure.

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 2:32:06 PM   
ClubMix


Posts: 75
Joined: 9/20/2004
Status: offline 		A vulnerable adult includes a person who: 1) is 60 years of age or older who has the functional, mental, or physical incapacity to care for him/herself; or 2) is found incapacitated by a person of legal and/or educational standing required to make such a diagnosis or 3) has a developmental disability or 4) is admitted to any facility specifically designated for those who have been found mentally incapable; or 5) receives services from any home health, hospice, or home care agency licensed or required to be licensed.

Defined, as by my PCA training manual.


As for attending play parties with a Vulnerable Adult, abuse is defined as the following:

· physical abuse, including hitting, slapping, pushing, kicking, misuse of medication, restraint, or inappropriate sanctions;

· sexual abuse, including rape and sexual assault or sexual acts to which the vulnerable adult has not consented, or could not consent or was pressured into consenting; it may also include serious teasing or innuendo

· psychological abuse, including emotional abuse, threats of harm or abandonment, deprivation of contact, humiliation, blaming, controlling, intimidation, ridicule, coercion, harassment, verbal abuse, including use of foul language, isolation or withdrawal from services or supportive networks;

· financial or material abuse, including theft, fraud, exploitation, pressure in connection with wills, property or inheritance or financial transactions, or the misuse or misappropriation of property, possessions or benefits;

· neglect and acts of omission, including ignoring medical or physical care needs, failure to provide access to appropriate health, social care or educational services, the withholding of the necessities of life, such as medication, adequate nutrition and heating

· discriminatory abuse, including racist, sexist, and homophobic, based on a person’s disability, and other forms of harassment, slurs or similar treatment.



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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 2:37:44 PM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ClubMix

3) has a developmental disability

Defined, as by my PCA training manual.


It may be defined that way, but i work with 150 developmentally disabled adults and only 2 have guardians and have been declared unable to make decisions for themselves. Parents/family have tried with others but even though i think the court is nuts in some cases, they say they are fine.  Probably best to not play so that you don't have to worry, but i have a friend who has Asperger's syndrome and who does play in this realm, but only online so far. I saw he was going to do it anyhow so i became a mentor, basically trying to keep him from opening himself up to anything dangerous. Bad choice on my part? maybe, but i just couldn't walk away and let him be vulnerable to everyone

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 2:44:51 PM   
ClubMix


Posts: 75
Joined: 9/20/2004
Status: offline 		That would be hard for me, to mentor a Vulnerable Adult... I had to go through Accountability training, so if I was ever in a situation where I played with or saw a Vulnerable Adult being played with, and didn't make a report, I'd be screwed. :/

As far as them being mentally capable to make their own decisions, that would probably be fine unless it went to court. Then they would be looking to fuck someone over, and it would be as easy as getting a psychiatrist to say the person was not capable of making their own decisions. You'd be burned at the stake, so to speak.

Not a risk I`m willing to take. *Shrug*

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 2:54:32 PM   
Celeste43


Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline 		Sorry, playing with a developmentally delayed person is equivalent to playing with a minor in the court's eyes. And in mine. But I have a mentally ill offspring and I'd probably shoot anyone who used her vulnerabilities against her to get her to do things she isn't capable of making an informed decision about.

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 3:18:16 PM   
MsCfromMelbourne


Posts: 777
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		Oh goodness

We do not have the concept of "vulnerable adult" in our jurisdiction.  We do however have a scene that includes people with physical and psychiatric disabilities and developmental delay as well as the elderly

It is my belief that disabled adults are sexual beings too and entitled to equal human rights to freedom of sexual expression (to the extent they are capable).

However they need an independent "friend" (if not their guardian) to accompany them to events and help them exercise judgement.  Having the independent person also protects your community/forum from allegations of abuse.

In our scene, kind people often assume the role of "protector" and look after the more vulnerable.  For example, we have one submissive male who is quite "slow" (with a heart of gold) and a Domme who is a psych nurse has taken him under her wing.*

Of course, the first rule of being a Protector is not to take advantage of the person in your care.  Or a mother like Celeste43 will hunt you down to the end of your days!!!


* For example, the psych nurse sold the disabled submissive to me at a public slave auction and he then had to be my slave for an hour.  He wanted to touch my feet , fetch drinks and other fairly harmless acts of devotion.  The nurse and I are friends and she would never have sold him to a stranger, but he was not to know that :)


< Message edited by MsCfromMelbourne -- 3/16/2007 3:24:03 PM >

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 3:53:09 PM   
Sab


Posts: 325
Joined: 5/2/2006
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Can it be determined if this is a legal status as opposed to a 'feelable' status, because that is where the reasonable man argument is made, I think.

Ron


Agreed!!!!!!!


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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 4:35:01 PM   
hereyesruponyou


Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ClubMix

That would be hard for me, to mentor a Vulnerable Adult... I had to go through Accountability training, so if I was ever in a situation where I played with or saw a Vulnerable Adult being played with, and didn't make a report, I'd be screwed. :/

As far as them being mentally capable to make their own decisions, that would probably be fine unless it went to court. Then they would be looking to fuck someone over, and it would be as easy as getting a psychiatrist to say the person was not capable of making their own decisions. You'd be burned at the stake, so to speak.

Not a risk I`m willing to take. *Shrug*


I don't see the person i mentor as vulnerable. If you go by definition he's not delayed as his IQ is plenty high. Asperger's affects more the ability to relate to people especially in social situations. He is 34 and the idea of ever actually having sex is almost out of his reach to him, but should it be???

I know people with disabilities have normal or often hyper sex drives. If you try to just ignore it they often end up in trouble. Allowing them to learn to deal with this in a safe way is better for them in the long run. I know a mom of a DD guy who bought him porn (once he was over 21), told him to only masturbate in his room, and encourages the relationship with his gf, including allowing them to spend the night together in his room. I think he is one of the most well adjusted people i work with

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 4:58:29 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Sorry, playing with a developmentally delayed person is equivalent to playing with a minor in the court's eyes. And in mine. But I have a mentally ill offspring and I'd probably shoot anyone who used her vulnerabilities against her to get her to do things she isn't capable of making an informed decision about.


Only semi off topic - Have you ever watched "The Other Sister"?

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 3/16/2007 4:59:55 PM >

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Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 5:06:00 PM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		I loved that movie.

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 5:06:08 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		It's sick, wrong, fucked up,and beyond belief that you would allow such a person to attend your functions....Unless the retard is "hot."....Then please forget all of the previous comments.
quote:

MsCfromMelbourne
We do not have the concept of "vulnerable adult" in our jurisdiction.  We do however have a scene that includes people with physical and psychiatric disabilities and developmental delay as well as the elderly


I know we are supposed to be mature...But that is one of the most fucked up funniest things I have ever read....I'm sorry....Oh geez..Do the elderly have a choice? or do they have to do stuff...with the psychos?

I shouldn't post this...I'm sorry...I am a poor example of an adult.

< Message edited by domiguy -- 3/16/2007 5:15:36 PM >

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RE: Vulnerable Adults? - 3/16/2007 5:08:36 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline 		I saw it in the theater with my folks. I wanted to cry for most of it. She and her beaux were so sweet!

Edited to Add:

I loved when they were going through the "Joy of Sex" book and she was asking him how much he weighed because she was worried about him crushing her.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 3/16/2007 5:09:20 PM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to junecleaver)
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