RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment!

RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (Full Version)

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FirmhandKY -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/25/2007 10:19:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: Well, to quote another of the last centuries great "progressive" leaders: All power comes from the barrel of a gun. Mao? You got it in one. And while I was being somewhat humorous, it is a statement of truth as well. It's the reason for the "right to bear arms" by the people, so that when/if the government becomes too oppressive, the people have the ability to replace it. Power comes from the people ... only so long as the people have the ability to take it back from the government. Once the government no longer fears the people ... then you'll have tryanny. I've tried to tell FB several times that we agree on some stuff, but he never seems to actually "listen" to anything I post. Just glances over it and goes into hyper-attack-mode. [:D] So ... the right to bear arms ... is tied in with the formation of militias .... That's one of the reasons that every able-bodied male in the US is considered a member of the militia, whether they believe themselves to be or not. This gives them the right to bear arms, and, in the final analysis, the right to overturn their own government, because the power that the government uses, is rightfully the peoples in the first place. FirmKY

dcnovice -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/25/2007 10:32:20 PM)
quote: You got it in one. I'm glad you put "progressive" in quotes then. He sounds like an incredible bastard. quote: the power that the government uses, is rightfully the peoples in the first place. That gets forgotten far too often, imho.

FirmhandKY -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/25/2007 10:39:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: the power that the government uses, is rightfully the peoples in the first place. That gets forgotten far too often, imho. Agreed. I think it was caitlyn that said in another thread that she sees the possibility of the day when we might have to revolt against our current government. I agree, and actually, while I believe that the current equilibrum can stay for a long time - I also believe that it wouldn't take much for the Federal government to become too smug in their power, to start to become what many "liberals" think it already is under Bush - a dictatorship. I don't agree with them, right now. When a "liberal" is in power, the "right' has the same fears and anxieties, too, but in a mirror image to the "lefts" current concerns. Remember all the talk of "militias" back during the Clinton years? Ruby Ridge? Waco? It's why "gun control" is such an important issue to the "right". To them (and me) it's code for "remove the ability of the people to resist the power of the government". FirmKY

dcnovice -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/25/2007 10:48:41 PM)
One of my great hopes is that we're too big, unwieldy, and inefficient for a dictator to gain power!

dcnovice -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/25/2007 10:50:17 PM)
Whenever folks complain that the government can't get anything done, I remind them that it was designed that way. Passing laws is supposed to be grindingly difficult and require compromises in order to frustrate tyranny.

Sanity -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 3:34:25 AM)
I remember that. In fact, I was a spectator at Randy Weavers' trial in Boise. A Federal Agent had told Randy Weaver to cut off a shotgun "right there" (where it was a felony)and then sell it to him (another felony) as a way to help his extremely poor family make some badly needed money. Then they (the Clinton administration) used the "crimes" he committed to twist his arm, and try to force him to wear a wire among the "Aryan Nations" with whom he was merely friendly. He rightfully refused (he could have been killed by the skin heads if they found out), and therefore he became a wanted man. When the Feds moved in to arrest him, they killed his wife and his son... quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Remember all the talk of "militias" back during the Clinton years? Ruby Ridge? Waco? It's why "gun control" is such an important issue to the "right". To them (and me) it's code for "remove the ability of the people to resist the power of the government". FirmKY

Real0ne -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 3:49:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: the power that the government uses, is rightfully the peoples in the first place. That gets forgotten far too often, imho. Agreed. I think it was caitlyn that said in another thread that she sees the possibility of the day when we might have to revolt against our current government. I agree, and actually, while I believe that the current equilibrum can stay for a long time - I also believe that it wouldn't take much for the Federal government to become too smug in their power, to start to become what many "liberals" think it already is under Bush - a dictatorship. I don't agree with them, right now. When a "liberal" is in power, the "right' has the same fears and anxieties, too, but in a mirror image to the "lefts" current concerns. Remember all the talk of "militias" back during the Clinton years? Ruby Ridge? Waco? It's why "gun control" is such an important issue to the "right". To them (and me) it's code for "remove the ability of the people to resist the power of the government". FirmKY caitlin was hardly the first to say it.. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ---Thomas Jefferson

Real0ne -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 3:56:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity I remember that. In fact, I was a spectator at Randy Weavers' trial in Boise. A Federal Agent had told Randy Weaver to cut off a shotgun "right there" (where it was a felony)and then sell it to him (another felony) as a way to help his extremely poor family make some badly needed money. Then they (the Clinton administration) used the "crimes" he committed to twist his arm, and try to force him to wear a wire among the "Aryan Nations" with whom he was merely friendly. He rightfully refused (he could have been killed by the skin heads if they found out), and therefore he became a wanted man. When the Feds moved in to arrest him, they killed his wife and his son... quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Remember all the talk of "militias" back during the Clinton years? Ruby Ridge? Waco? It's why "gun control" is such an important issue to the "right". To them (and me) it's code for "remove the ability of the people to resist the power of the government". FirmKY yep in cold assed blood too! waco was over 200 bucks that koresh did not pay for his gun. So they used tanks to torch and fry pver 100 men woman and children. and we have the balls to talk about tinaman square and sadam hussien. We are a laughing stock of the world.

Sanity -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 4:19:54 AM)
Can you think of no differences between our rights as Americans, and the lack of rights that socialists in China and Iraq suffer(d) under? quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne yep in cold assed blood too! waco was over 200 bucks that koresh did not pay for his gun. So they used tanks to torch and fry pver 100 men woman and children. and we have the balls to talk about tinaman square and sadam hussien. We are a laughing stock of the world.

FirmhandKY -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 4:28:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne caitlin was hardly the first to say it.. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ---Thomas Jefferson What Jefferson actually said was: "God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion....what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." -- Thomas Jefferson, 1787 I never said she was the first in history to say it. Just that she is a very intelligent, thoughful young person, who has seen the basis of power, how government affects the lives of all Americans, the current social order, and arrived at the same conclusion as many others, starting with .. John Locke who theorized on the "right of revolution" in his 1689 book Two Treatises of Government. It's most memorable usage is in the US Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. FirmKY

FirmhandKY -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 5:06:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Can you think of no differences between our rights as Americans, and the lack of rights that socialists in China and Iraq suffer(d) under? quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne yep in cold assed blood too! waco was over 200 bucks that koresh did not pay for his gun. So they used tanks to torch and fry pver 100 men woman and children. and we have the balls to talk about tinaman square and sadam hussien. We are a laughing stock of the world. Unfortunately, Real0ne seems to be a vinyl LP with scratch, and a skip track constantly playing. FirmKY

farglebargle -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 5:33:13 AM)
As the bureaucrats take over, the Government becomes less concerned about the DELIVERABLE the Government is responsible for, and more concerned about the growth of the bureaucracy. Eventually, we get to a point where: The Purpose of Government is to hire Government Employees. Consider that no "B" quality manager will ever hire an "A" quality manager as a subordinate, due to their insecurities, this limits the ultimate effectiveness of any organization to that of it's leader's insecurity. At SOME POINT the balance tips, and it stops being about "The People" and becomes about "The Organization" I believe the ultimate result of Democracy is Dictatorship, because that's the most efficient way to run "The Organization". They don't have votes about how to run the NTSB. That's why revolution needs to be built in. The attempt to strictly limit the power of the Federal Government via the Constitution is a complete failure. Fall back to Declaration of Independence. They got that right. Just didn't anticipate the whole Idiot Box effect. Lincoln was wrong. The Union had shot it's wad and self destructed. Since then, it's been Zombie-America...

NorthernGent -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 5:50:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I never said she was the first in history to say it. Just that she is a very intelligent, thoughful young person, who has seen the basis of power, how government affects the lives of all Americans, the current social order, and arrived at the same conclusion as many others, starting with .. John Locke who theorized on the "right of revolution" in his 1689 book Two Treatises of Government. Locke also held that our understanding of reality ultimately derives from what we have experienced through our senses. By extension, a core group of determined individuals, in the form of government, can make us believe things aren't necessarily what they seem.

Sinergy -> RE: Everyone Loves GW Bush! (3/26/2007 6:15:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy One can lead a person to knowledge, but one cannot make them think. Thank you, FirmKY. The commentary you provided was scintillating and factual and well thought out. Sinergy

Sanity -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 6:19:13 AM)
Due to a run-in I once had with Timothy Leary it's sometimes very difficult for people to follow my train of thought, or my logic... long story, and not what you think, unless you've met him yourself, possibly. Point is, I know this. But there seem to be many (nameless) here whose trains have completely derailed, and I can't help but wonder who or what THEY ran into in THEIR lives. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Unfortunately, Real0ne seems to be a vinyl LP with scratch, and a skip track constantly playing. FirmKY

FirmhandKY -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 8:10:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Due to a run-in I once had with Timothy Leary it's sometimes very difficult for people to follow my train of thought, or my logic... long story, and not what you think, unless you've met him yourself, possibly. Point is, I know this. But there seem to be many (nameless) here whose trains have completely derailed, and I can't help but wonder who or what THEY ran into in THEIR lives. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY Unfortunately, Real0ne seems to be a vinyl LP with scratch, and a skip track constantly playing. FirmKY hehe ... no comment. I've ventured as far to the edges of the TOS as I dare. [:D] It's a shame, though, because some of them are actually pretty intelligent. It's just that they get in that "stuck" position. FirmKY

FirmhandKY -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 8:13:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY I never said she was the first in history to say it. Just that she is a very intelligent, thoughful young person, who has seen the basis of power, how government affects the lives of all Americans, the current social order, and arrived at the same conclusion as many others, starting with .. John Locke who theorized on the "right of revolution" in his 1689 book Two Treatises of Government. Locke also held that our understanding of reality ultimately derives from what we have experienced through our senses. By extension, a core group of determined individuals, in the form of government, can make us believe things aren't necessarily what they seem. hmmmm. Can you expound on that, NG? FirmKY

mnottertail -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 8:30:10 AM)
It may run something along these lines: "Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." -- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials Just a guess tho, NG can do his own thing.

DomKen -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 9:43:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity I remember that. In fact, I was a spectator at Randy Weavers' trial in Boise. A Federal Agent had told Randy Weaver to cut off a shotgun "right there" (where it was a felony)and then sell it to him (another felony) as a way to help his extremely poor family make some badly needed money. Then they (the Clinton administration) used the "crimes" he committed to twist his arm, and try to force him to wear a wire among the "Aryan Nations" with whom he was merely friendly. He rightfully refused (he could have been killed by the skin heads if they found out), and therefore he became a wanted man. When the Feds moved in to arrest him, they killed his wife and his son... The violent incidents occured on August 21-22 1992. The standoff ended 10 days later. Clinton was sworn into office in January 1993. So that would have been the George H. W. Bush administration that tried to get Weaver to wear a wire during contact with Aryan Nation meetings.

Real0ne -> RE: HEY - Screw the 17th Amendment! (3/26/2007 9:52:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne caitlin was hardly the first to say it.. The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ---Thomas Jefferson What Jefferson actually said was: "God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion....what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure." -- Thomas Jefferson, 1787 I never said she was the first in history to say it. FirmKY i never said that you said it. i merely made the statement and thought it was pretty obvious that i agreed with you. quote: ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Can you think of no differences between our rights as Americans, and the lack of rights that socialists in China and Iraq suffer(d) under? quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne yep in cold assed blood too! waco was over 200 bucks that koresh did not pay for his gun. So they used tanks to torch and fry pver 100 men woman and children. and we have the balls to talk about tinaman square and sadam hussien. We are a laughing stock of the world. Unfortunately, Real0ne seems to be a vinyl LP with scratch, and a skip track constantly playing. FirmKY Lot of that seems to be going around doesnt it.

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