RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view?

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NorthernGent -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/21/2007 4:28:40 PM)
Here you are. If the article doesn't come up, then click on "search for UK miners' strike" on the right.....then UK miners' strike(1984-85) - top one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_miners'_strike_(1984%E2%80%931985) Does it confirm your opinions laid out above?

Dtesmoac -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/21/2007 4:32:14 PM)
Actually for a single bloke the money was fine but for a family man the money was crap. I dont think the children of miners were eligable for free school meals.......? After the 73 strike I went to Germany and worked in the coal mines there and earned a wage that was TWICE the British mineworkers wage and the Germans worked no harder than the British miners, in fact most of the miners were Turkish in the mine I was in. I think this probably applied to most industries in Britain at that time, weren't we called the sick man of Europe then? I traveled and worked a lot in Europe and the one thing I found out, it was the British management that was crap, not the workers. In the 70s / early 80s in the UK too much union power, outdated management, outdated equipment combined to create economic misery...the same is true in industry today in many places. From what I could tell the British never invested in their industry so they were inevitably more inefficient. One time I worked in an aluminium smelter in Rotterdam (early seventies) and it was being modernised and upgraded. The old machines were being taken out and sent to Birmingham to UPGRADE the company's smelter there! Some fitters came across from Birmingham to help take the equipement apart so they couldput it backj together in Birmingham. The Brummies couldn't believe the wage I was earning, 250% of what they were earning and I was doing the same job. Not only that, if I worked 12 hours which was required during upgrading, I got a free three course meal in the company restuarant (and it was a restuarant), free drinks throughout the shift, lockers and showers and a taxi paid by the company to take me home, as well as a gym and sports club and all sorts of deals on theatre and concert tickets. I would support all of this but it arises from a combination of factors including workers, management, investment combining, not from purely the workers wanting it. The Brummies got nowt extra and they worked harder because they worked with older and more inefficient machines. This was not a one off either, it was the norm. When Britain joined the EU and food prices went up, I could fully understand all the strikes.And by so doing killed their industry, something that was predicable if the Union had been interested in its workers rather than fighting political battles. [/quote]

meatcleaver -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/21/2007 4:36:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac He was right though wasn't he because all the mines were closed and communities were left to rot. It's easy to talk about adapting from afar, but when you live in the community it's a different matter entirely. Not sure how much you actually know about Scargill, the striking miners and the conservative government, but you may find this interesting. http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/UK_miners'_strike_(1984â€“1985) The link doesn't appear to be working, but would be interest if there is another. Scargill picked a political fight for political reasons which was paid for by other people. The miners believed they could and would bring the government down but had not realised that the rest of the country would not support them, times had changed. As for knowledge, I watched the news after school in an area where the economy meant people worked where and as they could, and considered that the miners were well paid and that the country was on its knees and needed someone to do something, anything to change it. Dtesmoac - Coal Board accountants were ordered to produce accountants that made mines appear unprofitable. For example, rusting old DOSCOs and other coal cutting machines that were basically obsolete and on the scrap heap were suddenly back in the stock yard and the mine forced to pay rent on them to the head office, which incidently refused to take the machines back into central stores because basically they would be moving scrap steel around. All the miners knew what was happening but it never got reported in the press that this creative accounting was going on to make it apear that certain mines were losing money. EDIT - Metaphorically back in the stock yard, the scrap heap and the stock yard being the same place. Except on paper of course.

Dtesmoac -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/21/2007 4:55:31 PM)
Got the Wikipedia article Will read and respond - inital response from quick glance is - TUC did not support strike, Scargil underestimated situation, many of the strikes problems could have been overcome if ballet held, so my initial thought remains that Scargil was a pillock - it shaped my views in that Unions should not be and are not an absolute power in industry. In the US the Unions have effectively killed the Car industry by pushing for deals in the 6o's and 70's which weak managment agreed to and can no longer be financed by the companies. Net result is that for the car industry the cost of pensions and medicalcare is more important than producing vehicles. The Miners strike brought some control to the power of unions. That is the lesson I learned and to this day I view Unions and Management as potential partners and should not be about confrontation or dogma. Will post later.

Dtesmoac -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/21/2007 4:57:31 PM)
I've got 12 pages of notes from NG to read and the kids dinner to sort out so will post again later- I know nothing.........about the Accounts etc - got any links? NB why are you up at Midnight............to many cigars and whisky?

LadyEllen -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/21/2007 6:23:41 PM)
1) Like NG, the policies and ensuing social disasters, not to mention financial disasters that was the Conservative governments of 1979 to 1997 in the UK. 2) Growing up in a poor working class background, but being with middle class kids in school because I was a good student in the top classes with them. This influenced me in several ways; a) Impressing upon me that whilst background usually determined future life, it didnt have to as long as that wasnt the expectation, particularly of those at the bottom b) Those at the top are often so possessed of a superiority complex that they feel incapable of error and beyond all questioning - which in adult life persists (explaining the poor performance of British management perhaps), whilst those at the bottom seem to accept this with complaint but not question c) That all people, regardless of background, have something to offer that is of value, but that the system values only those who were valued in the first place because of their background d) That those at the bottom often simply accept that and dont aspire to achieve all they could; as if they feel their low status to be the natural order and beyond any redemption, despite the best efforts to overcome that by way of the education system e) That all people, regardless of background, can be absolute shits to one another for any or no reason; status is no indicator of morality f) Unless you want to be beaten to a pulp on a daily basis, you'd best conform to your social class 3) More recently, from the fine examples set by the previous Conservative government and the current New Labour government a) That if you can get away with it, then its not a crime or a sin or whatever b) That nothing is ever simple and there is always some ulterior motive for any deed or word from a politician c) That even when the lie is discovered, the lie remains the truth d) That disillusionment with the system is a party political aim for both Labour and Conservative parties E

meatcleaver -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/21/2007 6:51:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac I've got 12 pages of notes from NG to read and the kids dinner to sort out so will post again later- I know nothing.........about the Accounts etc - got any links? NB why are you up at Midnight............to many cigars and whisky? It's 2.30am here so I'll look for links tomorrow. The reason I knew this was happening and everyone else knew, was because the area offices were going to be closed as well and the area managers who were being instructed to destroy their own jobs so they were quite happy to spill the beans and tell the Unions that the auditing procedures of the mines were being changed to make certain mines appear to have an operating loss. The government wouldn't allow any independent accountants check the books on behalf of the Union, the government had made its mind up to close all the mines as Arthur Scargill had said. And now Britain is planning to open a new coal fired power station to diversify energy when it shut down Europe's largest and most efficient coal mine. Just about sums Britain up.

Dtesmoac -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/24/2007 2:06:39 PM)
NG read through the article and have found nothing that changes my view. The depravations following the strike were and are clearly significant but surely the same argument can be sued for shipbuilding areas, car industry areas and many other parts of Britain. In the UK the Unions contributed to the decline of Cars, Steel, Shipbuilding, Coal etc. Whether deliberatley so or not it does not change the fact that the NUM picked a political fight that it believed it could win based on previous experiences but at a time and place were the negative aspects of Union power had clearly started to be seen. It can be clearly argued that the pendulum has swung to far the other way in the UK, but certainly in some industries in the US the Unions activities are clearly detroying companies and jobs. In others they contribute to the competetiveness of companies and organisations. I find it funny that in the UK I am considered to the right of centre whilst here in the US some of my views mae people label me as a communist / socialist.........!

LadyEllen -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/24/2007 2:28:40 PM)
I take issue with the idea that it was the unions that brought the end to British manufacturing industry. Yes, they played a part, but the much greater part of the guilt lies with British management in these industries who believing themselves and their products and methods to be inherently superior (being British), led their industries straight into decline as overseas competitors developed better products and methods, updated their machinery and trained their people properly. Our competitors became more efficient, and more prosperous such that their workers' standard of living rose, whilst here the workers saw themselves being left behind and so took action to maintain their lot, the cost of which of course was not possible to cover by the employers because they had been left behind in terms of market share already. The same British management nowadays has improved no end from those days of course, but still we see the same sort of short sightedness at work; knowing the cost of everything, but the value of nothing, pennywise, pound foolish, arrogant and dismissive of others' views and totally disregarding of anything but their bottom line, as well as so totally convinced that their way is the right way that even when their strategies have proven an abject failure, they are pursued with vigour. E

Real0ne -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/24/2007 3:08:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval The medical insurance agent I talked to informed me that once you are turned down for medical coverage, by any insurer for any reason, you are black-listed by the entire medical insurance industry in the US for the rest of your life. Getting medical insurance on your own will always be difficult. You need to be covered by your employer. I've heard that, too. One way around it is to start your own business (even if it's only got one employee -- you), and enroll your business in a group health insurance plan. It's a little more complicated than having just a personal health policy, but it works. Contact your local Chamber of Commerce. Membership in the Chamber often permits you to take advantage of the Group Insurance offerings they have. most states have a plan you can get too, albeit not the best and rather expesive better than none...

TribeTziyon -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/24/2007 3:18:44 PM)
Very nicely said.

NorthernGent -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/24/2007 3:43:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac NG read through the article and have found nothing that changes my view. The depravations following the strike were and are clearly significant but surely the same argument can be sued for shipbuilding areas, car industry areas and many other parts of Britain. In the UK the Unions contributed to the decline of Cars, Steel, Shipbuilding, Coal etc. Whether deliberatley so or not it does not change the fact that the NUM picked a political fight that it believed it could win based on previous experiences but at a time and place were the negative aspects of Union power had clearly started to be seen. It can be clearly argued that the pendulum has swung to far the other way in the UK, but certainly in some industries in the US the Unions activities are clearly detroying companies and jobs. In others they contribute to the competetiveness of companies and organisations. I find it funny that in the UK I am considered to the right of centre whilst here in the US some of my views mae people label me as a communist / socialist.........! Dtesmoac, No issues with the following? 1) British coal more productive than the US, German and French versions, but their governments looked after their workers and subsidised them. 2) The NUM knew what was coming i.e. widespread pit closures, so they fought to save jobs. Where's the problem? If it was your industry would you just let your livelihood go down the swanny without a fight? 3) The communities were left to rot with little to no regeneration. Aren't they suppoed to be a government of the nation i.e. all of us? 4) The phone tapping of Union leaders followed by propaganda and lies to discredit them. Fascism. 5) I'll stand by my earlier post - it's easy to talk from afar, but did you read about miners begging, borrowing and stealing for a year with no pay or state support - kids and families to support. No income whatsoever? Propaganda is such a powerful tool and this is exactly why we're in the state we are today i.e. Iraq - too many people are too easily swayed by the media and the government.......unless of course you're saying you don't care about points 1-5.

Vendaval -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/24/2007 4:11:44 PM)
Thank you, Real One and Tribe Tziyon. [:)]

popeye1250 -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/24/2007 4:28:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: ORIGINAL: Vendaval The medical insurance agent I talked to informed me that once you are turned down for medical coverage, by any insurer for any reason, you are black-listed by the entire medical insurance industry in the US for the rest of your life. Getting medical insurance on your own will always be difficult. You need to be covered by your employer. I've heard that, too. One way around it is to start your own business (even if it's only got one employee -- you), and enroll your business in a group health insurance plan. It's a little more complicated than having just a personal health policy, but it works. Vend, Polux may be onto something. If you Incorporate yourself you should be able to buy Health Insurance as a Business. Also since they changed all the laws to make it so difficult to be able to claim personal bankruptcy you could transfer all your assets to the business just in case. Plus, it makes it harder to sue someone if they're incorporated.

Sinergy -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/24/2007 5:09:01 PM)
Hello E/everybody, I was originally going to make a flip response and state "all of them" to the topic question, but changed my mind. I was born near the beach in Southern California. I grew up soaking my head by body surfing, surfing, swimming, or whatever in salt water or fishing. The sleepy little beach town I grew up in was coopted by wealthy Aerospace engineers with good incomes and soon went from being lots of vacant lots and inexpensive houses to multimillion dollar beach houses. My early experiences in life were spent reading everything I could get my hands on, although my tastes tended towards heroic tales of war heros, fantasy tales like the Lord of the Rings, history of big doings and wars and the conquering of civilizations. But the news on television and overhearing people talking troubled me. There was a war raging in an asian country I had never really heard of. The main industry in the town I grew up in (and one of my parents was involved in) was aerospace. So there was a lot of talk about the threat of global thermonuclear war, which seemed big and looming and dangerous and something I was powerless to do anything about. Always left me with wondering if other people the US was bombing or shooting were sitting there going "what the fuck did I do to deserve being bombed or shot at?" I lived in Europe when I was in middle school. Came home fluent (thinking 50% of the time) in the language of that country. Nobody else in my family took the time to learn the language, but I had dozens of local kids to goof off with, and a language barrier was not something I was going to let get me down. Learned a large number of different cultures to the one I grew up in. There are parts of Europe I adore, and there are parts I would not be upset if I never returned to them. Perhaps going to them as an adult would change my mind. I worked at a bunch of summer camps. At the first one, I went away a short and overweight kid and came home 4 inches taller, more tan than I had ever been in my life, with shoulder length reddish dark-blonde hair. My buddy talked me in to taking Modern Dance with him. Two guys. 17 women in leotards. The wrestlers thought we were gay, and while the dancers never would go out with either of us, most of their female friends would. Found punk music. Fell in love with Ska. Danced holes in my shoes to New Wave. 20 years later I stumbled into a dance studio and started dancing the Jitterbug. Self-actualizing my inner clown. Started smoking pot at 11. Gave up smoking pot forever at 17. Miss it sometimes, although all I ever did when I was stoned was sit and giggle. Found religion. Lost religion. The pasta never stuck to the wall. Got a job as a computer operator. 4 years later I was flown all over the US as a performance and systems expert on a certain operating system. While I did not hate it all the time, I found computer engineering to be less interesting than watching pennies tarnish. Eventually got put as lead engineer on some large and important contract requirements. Paid the bills, but I had issues with the irony of it all since I am somewhat of a peace nut. I went to college and got a degree in history. Took classes in subjects as diverse as sociology, psychology, feminist theory, various odd interdisciplinary courses on things like utopia, gang culture, etc. Went to graduate school to become a school teacher, but life issues kept me from finishing. Joined a martial arts studio. Eventually became an instructor. Did it for personal growth as I dont like most people enough to want to fight them. One day I had a realization that I should do the full contact stuff, so I called them and asked to do it. This was 17 years ago. Love doing it most of the time. Some days I have emotional issues with what I hear or do. Some days I have emotional or physical issues with the hormones like adrenalin and cortisol. Find it profoundly rewarding regardless of how I feel about it. Got married for years and years and years. Never cared for my ex very much. Long story. Had a couple of UMs that mean the world to me. Finally gave up on the relationship with my ex. See my UMs as much as I can. Got sick and woke up with great physical handicaps. Was sent home and abandoned by my insurance company. Said "fuck you" to the lot of them and fixed myself. Went back to the martial arts studio and eventually got another level of black belt. My doctor was impressed when she released me 3 years later that I had done what I had to do to fix myself, and how well I had done so. The most stubborn person I know, which would be the elder of my UMs, cannot hold a candle to me. The irony is that she and I never fight about anything. Found the lifestyle in the denouement of my first marraige. That ended. Took on a couple of submissives, one after the other, and was astonished when they became something else entirely within weeks of being collared. Took a long time off before looking for somebody else. Ended up falling in love again, but the one I married changed within weeks of our being married (2 years into our relationship) and one day she up and disappeared. Took a year off again. Met strumpet and talked for months before I drove up to meet her. Working out the parameters of our relationship. Was given a chance to work as a casual longshoreman. Filled it out. Would go work on the docks for the amusement value, to get some fresh air and sun. Computer jobs disappeared, leaving me struggling. Got pulled into the union. Going to graduate school in a year or two. Sinergy

Vendaval -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/24/2007 5:15:10 PM)
That is a good idea for a long term plan, Popeye. First off, I have to get a basic job for rent and student loans, build up experience in a new field, and then research being my own company/ Thank you all for the ideas and information! [:)] quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Vend, Polux may be onto something. If you Incorporate yourself you should be able to buy Health Insurance as a Business. Also since they changed all the laws to make it so difficult to be able to claim personal bankruptcy you could transfer all your assets to the business just in case. Plus, it makes it harder to sue someone if they're incorporated.

Dtesmoac -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/24/2007 9:40:01 PM)
No issues with the following? 1) British coal more productive than the US, German and French versions, but their governments looked after their workers and subsidised them. the article gave no evidence of this 2) The NUM knew what was coming i.e. widespread pit closures, so they fought to save jobs. Where's the problem? If it was your industry would you just let your livelihood go down the swanny without a fight? . and your answer to the hunting fraternity, whaling communities, arms industries would be....what? The miners had held previous governments to ransom and tried it again..... that was my point about Scargil. Going on strike never saves jobs. 3) The communities were left to rot with little to no regeneration. Aren't they suppoed to be a government of the nation i.e. all of us? The UK was rotting at that time. Regeneration funds are predominantly focussed on areas of deprevation, however there contiues to be a requirement for people that wish to work to move to chase the work. Some people will, others will not. You ignore the aspects that if ballots had been held, and if they were won then many of the hardship issues would not have arrisen The NUM wold not have been taken to court, the TUC would have supported the action, people would have received state benefits. 4) The phone tapping of Union leaders followed by propaganda and lies to discredit them. Fascism an easy word to use, don't cheapen it. It was a political attempt to topple a government. Scargil used the miners. 5) I'll stand by my earlier post - it's easy to talk from afar, but did you read about miners begging, borrowing and stealing for a year with no pay or state support - kids and families to support. No income whatsoever? The bitterness and labelling of scab from one generation to the next, the subsequent assaults and deaths, it was some not all that backed the strikes. I have consideration for the families of those that subjected them to this but on the hole do not see it as some heroic crusade.

caitlyn -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/24/2007 11:27:20 PM)
I lived on the streets for several months, as a runaway. What I ran from, was worse than living on the streets. Over the last six years, I can't believe how completely lucky I've been. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I would consider that the second most lucky thing that's happened to me. I see the world as a cold and heartless place. I don't even feel like part of it ... I just live here. It's a place where you have to learn to value good coin, and to laugh the hardest when you hurt the most. Politically, my expectations are realistically low. The world is so bad, no mortal man or women will ever make more than a dent. Evil will be with us always ... if it isn't an unpopular war, it will be genocide ... or aids ... or tens of thousands of children walking the streets, running from nightmare world. The best we can do, is try to maintain our class and dignity, hold our head high, and do the best we can. Those are my only expectations from our leaders. I'm disgusted by people that look down on political leaders. They are doing nothing but masterbating, in my view, and make an almost impossible job, that much harder.

meatcleaver -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/24/2007 11:45:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac No issues with the following? 1) British coal more productive than the US, German and French versions, but their governments looked after their workers and subsidised them. the article gave no evidence of this British deep mine coal was the most efficient in the world but could never be as cheap as coal dug in the slave working conditions of coal in Columbia or state subsidized Polish coal. 2) The NUM knew what was coming i.e. widespread pit closures, so they fought to save jobs. Where's the problem? If it was your industry would you just let your livelihood go down the swanny without a fight? . and your answer to the hunting fraternity, whaling communities, arms industries would be....what? The miners had held previous governments to ransom and tried it again..... that was my point about Scargil. Going on strike never saves jobs. The miners hadn't previously held governments to ransom. They spent ten years telling governments that they were being treated apallingly. The miners cracked when Heath having made the devasting inflationary decision to introduce decimal currency and then impose a wage freeze. There was an government inquiry after the strike of 1972, I forget the name of it at the moment but I have a copy in my bookcase and it has all the stats and found that the miners had been taken advantage of by successive governments. Holding the government to ransom is rightwing propaganda and Scargill was not the NUM President in 1972 or 1974. 3) The communities were left to rot with little to no regeneration. Aren't they suppoed to be a government of the nation i.e. all of us? The UK was rotting at that time. Regeneration funds are predominantly focussed on areas of deprevation, however there contiues to be a requirement for people that wish to work to move to chase the work. Some people will, others will not. You ignore the aspects that if ballots had been held, and if they were won then many of the hardship issues would not have arrisen The NUM wold not have been taken to court, the TUC would have supported the action, people would have received state benefits. There was no regeneration funds to talk about and EU money was refused by the government because it had to meet them pound for pound. There was some EU money for deprived areas but much of this was redirected south, the Major government was particularly guilty of this. As for ballots, there was no need for a ballot, the ballot was tory propaganda but as for scab county, the Nottingham Democratic Union of Mineworkers, we have all seen how good the tory's word to them was. 4) The phone tapping of Union leaders followed by propaganda and lies to discredit them. Fascism an easy word to use, don't cheapen it. It was a political attempt to topple a government. Scargil used the miners. Oh, if you lived in a mining area you would tend to use the word fascist for the British state apparatus. Arbitary arrests, arbitary beatings, road blocks stopping you from going about your lawful business. Withdrawal of local police and importing of southern police such as the metropolitan police which had the reputation for thuggery. Somehow they managed to break the arm of a 15 year old girl in my father's village and arrest an 82 year old man on charges of assault for trying to protect her, accidently beating him up and fracturing his skull in the process. Casual beatings by police was not uncommon. Of something like 243 miners arrest in South Yorkshire, all were found innocent at Sheffield Crown Court because police evidence was falsified and their statments were proved to be lies. The sequestration of Union money was a fascist act. Where is the democracy of robbing people of their only funds? Then after robbing people of their funds, denying them an social security (which would be fair enough if they hadn't robbed the union of legitimate funds). The government tried to starve the miners back to work. They tried to make their families suffer and weaken the strike that way. Then there were stories in the rightwing press of suitcases of cash being carried roiund like the mafia. Well if the money collected was put in a bank, the tory government would have it seized. What the strike did do, it made my father's generation realise the police really are a set of bastards and that the country doesn't belong to the people but to the establishment. The police still won't get out of their police cars where my father lives and still no one will cooperate with them, people sort their own problems out which isn't ideal but a legacy of the strike. The only jobs that have moved into the area are low paid jobs so drugs, guns and crime have moved in, the black economy is rife. The legacy of Thatcher is dishonesty and a repugnance of the state. However, you can make a good living if you are dishonest, especially in the import-export business. 5) I'll stand by my earlier post - it's easy to talk from afar, but did you read about miners begging, borrowing and stealing for a year with no pay or state support - kids and families to support. No income whatsoever? The bitterness and labelling of scab from one generation to the next, the subsequent assaults and deaths, it was some not all that backed the strikes. I have consideration for the families of those that subjected them to this but on the hole do not see it as some heroic crusade. There was nothing heroic about it and if a scab was on fire, I wouldn't piss on him to put him out and I still wouldn't. I still laugh my head off when I think of scab county and the tories closing down their mines. They learnt how good a tory's word is the hard way. Thatcher made a dishonest country of Britain and not just in regard to the miners strike. The City of London is full of theives and chancers, my ex used to work there and was amazed at what people got away with which was basically gambling and stealing other people's money. Hell. I promised myself I wouldn't post while I'm being Moderated but I had to answer this post.

NorthernGent -> RE: What life experiences have shaped your political point of view? (3/25/2007 4:04:22 AM)
In terms of influencing politics: If I was digging deep for an answer, I've been influenced by Christian ideals as much as anything else. If I was around in the 18th century, I would probably have belonged to a religious group such as the Quakers as their core ideals match mine. My mother is a Christian - a devout Christian - and, whilst I place store in tangible items, her take on life has rubbed off on me. I honestly think we can take personal responsibility for ourselves, believe a grand life is there for the taking if we want it, work hard, do the best by ourselves and our families......but at the same time be charitable to others when it goes arse over tit for them and they're having a bad time - where's the harm in giving someone a guiding hand? Just because I'm an eternal optimist and get my head down and work hard, it doesn't mean I should expect the same from the bloke down the street. And who cares about a few quid in tax anyway? - it's only bits of paper and coins we hand over and in return get some rubbish that we don't need - ice cream, dvds, pizzas - so, why the obsession with money and why not put a few quid to some good use and help someone who is struggling with life? I also strongly believe in the inherent good in humanity and if you give people a small amount of help, they will take the opportunity. At their core, these are Christian ideals of compassion, fairness, understanding, humanity, respect for one another. I suppose I'm a Christian in the sense of believing in their ideals...I just can't deal with the claustophrobic and divisive nature of organised religion. Plus, I've no wish to join a group and call myself "spiritual" - I'm happy enough just knowing who and what I am. If I was around in the 60s, there's a fair chance I would have been a hippy.....but then again, I have a work ethic within me (instilled by the tradition of my coal mining family and the Protestantism of Britain) which probably would have meant I would have been what I am now - a hard working individual believing that Britian is a nation for all of us and quality of life must reflect this. One thing is common in all of these threads - circumstance and environment shape who we are. A good thread, Vendaval.

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