RE: A different voice on Iraq

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caitlyn -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 10:16:50 PM)
Whatever ... ha-ha!!!

juliaoceania -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 10:20:45 PM)
? I do not think that it would be funny, but we all have our own particular sense of humor... unless you think taking Iran would be easier than what we have thus far experienced in Iraq? Iran has a real military, Saddam really had hardly any defense at all. I thought I would point that out.

caitlyn -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 10:33:23 PM)
You can point out whatever you want. Iran has a military designed to fight against the Iraqi army, who had limited air capability. Against the air assets of the United States, they would be helpless. Your hatred of war, blinds you to the absolute fact that it's something that the United States is very good at. I hate war also, but can recognize reality for what it is. We will always differ in that julia (which is fine, really). You are a radical, self proclaimed. Me ... I just live here, and have no problem accepting things as they are.

dcnovice -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 10:36:28 PM)
Do we really want to get bogged down in a third Middle Eastern country, though?

juliaoceania -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 10:37:45 PM)
Ok Caitlyn, if you believe that we are good at conducting war, tell me why we have seemingly lost two out of three of the last wars we have fought? It is not military capability that we lack, it is the fact that people who do not want to cooperate with occupation tend to be hard to occupy. Iraq had over a decade of sanctions, they had problems before we even invaded. Now you may think that Iran would be a breeze to beat, we cannot claim victory in either Afghanistan or Iraq... and you think we would be successful against Iran? I do not possibly see how without at least a draft.

juliaoceania -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 10:39:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Do we really want to get bogged down in a third Middle Eastern country, though? Only a crazy person would commit to another front in the ME, it would be sheer and utter insanity

mnottertail -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 10:39:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Your hatred of war, blinds you to the absolute fact that it's something that the United States is very good at. Actually, we are kinda piss poor at it, once all the wall of metal is spent. Ron

juliaoceania -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 10:40:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Your hatred of war, blinds you to the absolute fact that it's something that the United States is very good at. Actually, we are kinda piss poor at it, once all the wall of metal is spent. Ron Yes, we did not do well in Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan... just sayin

mnottertail -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 10:43:30 PM)
It would have helped had them insurgents had the fuckin foresight to plant a couple trees in that arrid and barren motherfucker, would have made the napalm trick work out. Ron

slavegirljoy -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 11:03:18 PM)
Sir, with all due respect, this former soldier (1974-1987), wonders where you are getting your information about the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), that you referenced here, other than from a Hollywood movie. Having served honorably for nearly 12 years, i am here to tell you that nowhere in the statutes of military justice or in any contract or oath taken by any military member does it require, nor could it require members of the Armed Services to give up our Freedom of Speech, a right granted to all citizens, including military members and protected by the articles of our Constitution. Yes, Sir, military men and women have the right to speak freely, so long as it is not disrespectful or contemptuous toward a superior officer, which is required for maintaining order and discipline. "Disrespectful behavior is that which detracts from the respect due the authority and person of a superior commissioned officer. It may consist of acts or language, however expressed, and it is immaterial whether they refer to the superior as an officer or as a private individual. Disrespet by words may be conveyed by abusive epithets or other contemptuous or denunciatory language.Disrespect by acts includes neglecting the customary salute, or showing a marked disdain, indifference, insolence, impertinence, undue familiarity, or other rudeness in the presence of the superior officer." A military member can participate in political activities, including giving political speeches, while off duty and while in civilian clothes, not in uniform and not as an "official representative" of the military, but as a private citizen. That is a right that belongs to all citizens, including the military, and can not be taken away. The military is made of a cross-section of our society and every political ideology that is found in our society is found in the military and private conversations among military members and with others will reflect a braod range of opinions about every topic, without censure or fear of punishment for speaking freely. Most soldiers are most concerned with getting the mission done as well as they can and with the fewest casualties as possible than they are with what's going on in the circus of politics. Here is a list of punitive actions covered under the UCMJ (notably missing from this list is the crime of speaking freely, because it's not a crime) Article 77 -Principals Article 78 -Accessory after the fact Article 79 -Conviction of lesser included offenses Article 80 -Attempts Article 81 -Conspiracy Article 82 -Solicitation Article 83 -Fraudulent enlistment, appointment, or separation Article 84 -Effecting unlawful enlistment, appointment, or separation Article 85 -Desertion Article 86 - Absence without leave (AWOL) Article 87 - Missing movement Article 88 - Contempt toward officials Article 89 - Disrespect toward a superior commissioned officer Article 90 - Assaulting or willfully disobeying superior commissioned officer Article 91 - Insubordinate conduct toward warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer Article 92 -Failure to obey order or regulation Article 93 - Cruelty and maltreatment Article 94 --Mutiny and sedition Article 95 --Resistance, flight, breach of arrest, and escape Article 96 --Releasing prisoner without proper authority Article 97 --Unlawful detention Article 98 --Noncompliance with procedural rules Article 99 --Misbehavior before the enemy Article 100 --Subordinate compelling surrender Article 101 --Improper use of countersign Article 102 --Forcing a safeguard Article 103 --Captured or abandoned property Article 104 --Aiding the enemy Article 105 --Misconduct as a prisoner Article 106 --Spies Article 106a --Espionage Article 107 --False official statements Article 108 --Military property of the United States--sale, loss, damage, destruction, or wrongful disposition Article 109 --Property other than military property of the United States--waste, spoilage, or destruction Article 110 --Improper hazarding of vessel Article 111 -Drunken or reckless operation of vehicle, aircraft, or vessel Article 112 --Drunk on duty Article 112a --Wrongful use, possession, etc., of controlled substances Article 113 --Misbehavior of sentinel or lookout Article 114 --Dueling Article 115 --Malingering Article 116 --Riot or breach of peace Article 117 --Provoking speeches or gestures Article 118 --Murder Article 119 --Manslaughter Article 120 --Rape and carnal knowledge Article 121 --Larceny and wrongful appropriation Article 122 --Robbery Article 123 --Forgery Article 123a --Making, drawing, or uttering check, draft, or order without sufficient fundsArticle 124 --Maiming Article 125 --Sodomy Article 126 --Arson Article 127 --Extortion Article 128 --Assault Article 129 --Burglary Article 130 --Housebreaking Article 131 --Perjury Article 132 --Frauds against the United States Article 133 --Conduct unbecoming an officer and gentleman Article 134 --General article Article 134-1-- Abusing public animal Article 134-2--Adultery Article 134-3--Assault--indecent Article 134-4--Assault--with intent to commit murder, voluntary manslaughter, rape, robbery, sodomy, arson, burglary, or housebreaking Article 134-5--Bigamy Article 134-6--Bribery and graft Article 134-7--Burning with intent to defraud Article 134-8--Check, worthless, making and uttering--by dishonorably failing to maintain funds Article 134-9--Cohabitation, wrongful Article 134-10--Correctional custody--offenses against Article 134-11--Debt, dishonorably failing to pay Article 134-12--Disloyal statements Article 134-13--Disorderly conduct, drunkenness Article 134-14--Drinking liquor with prisoner Article 134-15--Drunk prisoner Article 134-16--Drunkenness--incapacitation for performance of duties through prior wrongful indulgence in intoxicating liquor or any drug Article 134-17--False or unauthorized pass offenses Article 134-18--False pretenses, obtaining services under Article 134-19--False swearing Article 134-20--Firearm, discharging--through negligence Article 134-21--Firearm, discharging--willfully, under such circumstances as to endanger human life Article 134-22--Fleeing scene of accident Article 134-23--Fraternization Article 134-24--Gambling with subordinate Article 134-25--Homicide, negligent Article 134-1--Impersonating a commissioned, warrant, noncommissioned, or petty officer, or an agent or official Article 134-26--Indecent acts or liberties with a child Article 134-27--Indecent exposure Article 134-28--Indecent language Article 134-29--Indecent acts with another Article 134-30--Jumping from vessel into the water Article 134-31--Kidnapping Article 134-32--Mail: taking, opening, secreting, destroying, or stealing Article 134-33--Mails: depositing or causing to be deposited obscene matters in Article 134-34--Misprision of serious offense Article 134-35--Obstructing justice Article 134-36--Wrongful interference with an adverse administrative proceeding Article 134-37--Pandering and prostitution Article 134-38--Parole, Violation of Article 134-39--Perjury: subornation of Article 134-40--Public record: altering, concealing, removing, mutilating, obliterating, or destroying Article 134-41--Quarantine: medical, breaking Article 134-42--Reckless Endangerment Article 134-43--Requesting commission of an offense Article 134-44--Restriction, breaking Article 134-45--Seizure: destruction, removal, or disposal of property to prevent Article 134-46--Self-injury without intent to avoid service Article 134-47--Sentinel or lookout: offenses against or by Article 134-48--Soliciting another to commit an offense Article 134-49--Stolen property: knowingly receiving, buying, concealing Article 134-50--Straggling Article 134-51--Testify: wrongful refusal Article 134-52--Threat or hoax: bomb Article 134-53--Threat, communicating Article 134-54--Unlawful entry Article 134-55--Weapon: concealed, carrying Article 134-56--Wearing unauthorized insignia, decoration, badge, ribbon, device, or lapel button Respectfully, slave joy Owned property of Master David quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn This report matches some of what the person I know that is actually over there, has to say. As Anthony Swofford pointed out in Jarhead, a soldier on active duty has signed a contract and is not at liberty to speak freely. It is pointed out to said soldier that failure to speak the line provided to them by their military commanders is technically an act of treason. This is a crime under the UCMJ that is punishable by death. Go ahead and believe what an embedded reporter and an active duty soldier say about the war. Sinergy

caitlyn -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 11:06:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice Do we really want to get bogged down in a third Middle Eastern country, though? I'll answer you both. [:D] No, we don't want to get involved in Iran ... but, how is understanding that Iran is militarily backwards and would be no threat to the United States, suggesting that we desire to go to war? Answer ... it doesn't. Likewise ... the desire to avoid war with Iran, doesn't suddenly make them a major military threat. Julia said, Iran has a "real military" (her words) which quite frankly, is complete bullshit. Their Air Force is made up of Vietnam vintage American aircraft, with few spare parts. A third of their armor dates from the Korean war, and most of the rest is Vietnam vintage. The air defense system is built around a missile that hasn't shot down an aircraft since the 1973 Arab-Israeli war. About the only modern weapon they have, is the Moskit, which doesn't have even close to the range it would need to hit U.S. Navy warships. Iran is militarily backwards, to say the least. Could you imagine using their "human wave" tactics, with B-52's and B-2's flying overhead? As far as losing the last three wars ... if julia wants to declare Afghanistan and Iran already lost, that is her right. I don't agree, and would point out that if she is as accurate about that, as she is about the Iranian military, we will be in fine shape indeed. [;)]

domiguy -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 11:09:06 PM)
Let me chime in for a moment...the reporter in question did an interview with NPR back in August of 2005...I haven't heard nor read the transcripts of this interview nor have probably any of you...That being said, I find the person who critiqued the interview to be of relevance simply because if she is saying the same story in 2005 that she is saying today that it would lead one to believe that she has possibly lost her perspective on this topic......That is why the people on this site that you would expect to trumpet this interview have done so... And the people who have doubts over the war have questioned the rationale of her stand. There is another link which talks about the political views of the majority of the troops tend to be to the right (didn't bother listing)...Which makes sense since everyone who has joined has made it their choice. However you will never see an interview from Pat Tillman's parents....Expressing the gratitude or the positiveness that these soldiers have conveyed to Pamela Hess. I personally think the whole thing is a disaster, but at the same time I sincerely hope that our troops feel like they are contributing to something worthwhile...And there in lies the difference....At this stage of the war in Vietnam there was such a public cry of outrage coupled with a draft that to many soldiers there was no place worse to be....That is not the case with our governments "War on terror"...Everyone there (in Iraq) has enlisted out of choice so I think it is actually somewhat compelling, and although it is possibly misguided, I am proud of our troops that they believe in their mission and I pray that they all come home safely as soon as possible. Perused my post with displeasure going to bed.

dcnovice -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 11:09:27 PM)
quote: Article 114 --Dueling I wanted to join the Marines but just couldn't give up dueling.

caitlyn -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 11:09:35 PM)
Gee Ron ... you are giving up in Afghanistan and Iraq also? I know who not to stand next to in a scrap. [;)][;)]

domiguy -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 11:13:36 PM)
If it weren't for that mother fucking article#125 I would have been one Hell of a Muther Fuckin' Marine.....Boooya!

farglebargle -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 11:15:42 PM)
"Article 134-21--Firearm, discharging--willfully, under such circumstances as to endanger human life " Ummm... Isn't that like the entire point of the Marines?

dcnovice -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 11:18:06 PM)
quote: how is understanding that Iran is militarily backwards and would be no threat to the United States, suggesting that we desire to go to war? My question was just a general reaction to the idea of war with Iran; I wasn't saying that you were advocating it.

caitlyn -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/23/2007 11:28:42 PM)
Funny you guys ... [:D] Since this thread is more fun that my date tonight ... which can be judged by how early I got home ... and I'm in full attack mode, I'm going to finish it off and go to bed. Earlier in this thread, I made the statement: quote: I see the hard anti-war movement as bullshit artists on the same level as the bullshit artist we have in the Whitehouse. They are just bullshit artists that have different political views. I'm sticking with this one. [;)] President Bush used false information, to support his position. Strong anti-war activists are willing to use false information concerning the capabilities of the Iranian military, to support their position. Obviously, anti-war activists have far, far, FAR better intentions (for instance, being against killing people instead of for killing them), but in reality, are no more credible than the President. Yet another reason why we get the sorts of leaders we get these days. I'm now off to bed, before I get myself justifiably moderated. [;)]

mnottertail -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/24/2007 12:16:36 AM)
Also having some business with the government I would like to draw your attention to Article 134-12............. re your earlier comment of yadda yadda yadda but in civilian clothes and all that, I will tell you this, the government may giveth in that statement but article 134-12 doth take it away. Sgt. Ron Melby former RA

mnottertail -> RE: A different voice on Iraq (3/24/2007 12:26:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn Gee Ron ... you are giving up in Afghanistan and Iraq also? I know who not to stand next to in a scrap. [;)][;)] If it was a scrap, I would be one of the ones to stand next to, you goddamn right i would flush the whole shitoree, because where is Bin Lauden ? Is he with Nicole Smiths killer in a bar in El Segundo? WTF? I still remember this shit becuase it is all there is, these are the field operational orders of an NCO: My Mission My Men My Equipment My Morale My Self What the fuck clearly and succintly is my mission? WMDs done...... My men are being killed I have expended my equipment to no avail I have no morale or will to carry the fight to the end I am now focusing on myself We are out of here clown. I would be the best bet you got. Cause once I hit the bottom of the 5 to-dos? Restet the list and start at the top. Ron

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