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Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 6:55:11 AM

VelvetIronTouch

Posts: 16
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline

About eight years ago, when I was 19 and just finding out about D/s, beginning the journey, I met a fella and His girl in yahoo chat, name of Lord_Greybeard and sens. They actually happened to live in My town..which is kinda rare, since I live in a 'city' of 17,000 in the middle of South Dakota, and after a while of talking, I had turned 20 by then, they invited Me over for dinner a few times.

They taught Me a lot, how to make 'zippers,' how to use a flogger, dangers of bondage, respect, courtesy, appreciation, etc.

But one thing still stands out in My mind. I had not even thought at all of this at the time, and though I suppose it is common knowledge, I wonder how many others have not realized/given thought to it.

It was always just a given that the sub/slave had to trust -Me- fairly well, to let Me bind her and Dominate her, instruct her etc.

But until that day it had never dawned on Me that the Dom has to trust His/Her sub/slave an equal amount.

To do some non-all-inclusive gender biasing, men are often more upfront blunt and physical with their anger, while women can often be quiet, sneaky, and plotting about it all.

Which is a smart thing, not a bad thing, when you think about it.

Anyway, the Dom has to trust the sub with His/Her life as well. Think about it. All it takes is one unhinged/righteously angry sub to walk into a police station, show bruises, rope marks, etc, and cry 'rape' and the Dom is pretty much screwed.

What do you folks feel about trust needing to be equal and go both ways?

Do you think Doms/Masters/Mistresses often enough understand the potential for life-changing harm their subs/slaves could do to them if they had a mind to, or do you think most D/M/M's rely on their Dominance, as opposed to a mutual trustability, to prevent such things from happening?

Post #: 1

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 7:06:34 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VelvetIronTouch

What do you folks feel about trust needing to be equal and go both ways?

Do you think Doms/Masters/Mistresses often enough understand the potential for life-changing harm their subs/slaves could do to them if they had a mind to, or do you think most D/M/M's rely on their Dominance, as opposed to a mutual trustability, to prevent such things from happening?

I think someone with experience and a healthy sense of social/legal awareness is aware that what we do is often not only looked down upon but could easily be seen as a crime in many societies.

Some people think that contracts and some legal documents may protect them but I personally think they are forgetting that BDSM is about mutual consent. That consent, as much as you may wish for it to be otherwise, does not disappear and does not lose value regardless of the years you have together. Ultimate it is a matter of our honor and respect for each other than helps us maintain any relationship.

That honor and respect needs to flow both ways. I have to trust someone enough to bring him/her into my life and my house and my family. I never let myself become dependent on my slaves nor do I pretend that I am some Roman matron with absolute power over their lives. I see it for what it is: a consensual relationship with a specific authority dynamic that we both must support.

Don't believe this? Consider the legal cases that pop up every now and then.

Hopefully your relationships are strong and mutually respectful, you both work to maintain the dynamics. I'd say that a dominant should never let herself get so comfortable that you allow yourself to make a stupid decision that comes back to bite you hard. Consider everything when you make the decisions.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to VelvetIronTouch)

Post #: 2

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 7:14:33 AM

VelvetIronTouch

Posts: 16
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline

I like a lot of that post, but I do have issue with one part.

quote:

That consent, as much as you may wish for it to be otherwise, does not disappear and does not lose value regardless of the years you have together.

I have to say that yes, it absolutely can change. Just as love can change. Relationships can begin very well and then die. It happens. That goes for vanilla and double-chocolate-mocha-grande-muddy-sneakers-D/s.

People have epiphanys all the time, people just suddenly change who they are and what they want all the time, often because they never really did know who they were, or because they convinced themselves they wanted something else.

If someone pledges their submission to you Today, and then five years down the road that changes, you have to let it change, you have to let them go, if they need to.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 3

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 7:24:19 AM

SunNMoon

Posts: 1058
Joined: 3/18/2007
Status: offline

(fast reply)
I agree with what TammyJo already said. But I feel like adding in my 2 cents just for fun. We're not into S&M, just not our thing. But we both love bondage. I've always seen bondage as the symbol of the trust between us. I have to trust that he will let me know when he's about to panic and when something is going wrong. And he has to trust that I'm not going to freak out and call wolf, when he has had me tied up. Isn't trust the foundation of all relationship? Without trust, to me it would seem to be unhealthy.

(in reply to VelvetIronTouch)

Post #: 4

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 7:35:16 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

As what's been said, we all have to trust eachother to hold to our commitments, our expectations, and be true to our character.

It is indeed one of those pesky pervasive myths in the scene that the bottom/sub/slave puts their life into the hands of someone more than other people do.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to SunNMoon)

Post #: 5

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 7:39:33 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VelvetIronTouch

I like a lot of that post, but I do have issue with one part.

quote:

That consent, as much as you may wish for it to be otherwise, does not disappear and does not lose value regardless of the years you have together.

I have to say that yes, it absolutely can change. Just as love can change. Relationships can begin very well and then die. It happens. That goes for vanilla and double-chocolate-mocha-grande-muddy-sneakers-D/s.

People have epiphanys all the time, people just suddenly change who they are and what they want all the time, often because they never really did know who they were, or because they convinced themselves they wanted something else.

If someone pledges their submission to you Today, and then five years down the road that changes, you have to let it change, you have to let them go, if they need to.

I don't think I expressed myself clearly if you think I meant that things don't change.

Some people believe that once consent is given it is unimportant anymore.

I was trying to say that consent is always an issue, it is always there, you may not specifically think of it as consent anymore but the ability to consent or not is a factor forever in my experience and strong opinion. Each of us decides every day, consciously or not, to consent to the relationship, to do an action, or to express our thoughts.

I believe that everyday my slave consents to be my slave and I consent to be his owner. We can withdraw that consent at any time. If the other denies our right to consent or not, then they have stepped out of the consensual relationship into something most societies consider a crime. If that happens we shouldn't be surprised if the other person goes to legal authorities and complains.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to VelvetIronTouch)

Post #: 6

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 8:02:40 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VelvetIronTouch

What do you folks feel about trust needing to be equal and go both ways?

Do you think Doms/Masters/Mistresses often enough understand the potential for life-changing harm their subs/slaves could do to them if they had a mind to, or do you think most D/M/M's rely on their Dominance, as opposed to a mutual trustability, to prevent such things from happening?

I wouldn't say Equal... since really how do you measure that with any objectivity. However, I think that Trust is required to go both ways.

Just like some Submissives... some Dominants are foolish and reckless in their decisions and trust when they shouldn't and pay the price for it. But some Dominants like some submissives have alittle more on the ball and seem to keep themselves out of the fire.

It's not Dominance or mutual trustability... it's the effort and knowledge that goes into building that trust in the first place.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to VelvetIronTouch)

Post #: 7

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 8:32:39 AM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

While I understand and agree with what TammyJo has said…and always respect her good sense; I feel I must add my two-cents worth, too.

Rather like the OP said, a Dom/Top must trust the one he binds and or beats because, as far as I am aware, one cannot legally consent to such play. No matter how eager the one you tie up is, when you tie them up…the one tying is always at risk for something going very wrong.

Like the OP went on to say; epiphanies happen, people get scared, other people butt in. So, yes, even during a routine visit to the doctor, bruises and welts give cause for a doctor’s mandatory call to the police, who can arrest the one who made the marks…even if the ‘patient’ refuses to place charges.

Yup, trust is a two-way street.

bearlee

(in reply to VelvetIronTouch)

Post #: 8

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 8:39:02 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee
So, yes, even during a routine visit to the doctor, bruises and welts give cause for a doctor’s mandatory call to the police, who can arrest the one who made the marks…even if the ‘patient’ refuses to place charges.

Yup, trust is a two-way street.

bearlee

If the patient refuses to place charges and refuses to name the "perpetrator" then there is no one to arrest. They might be upset with the patient, bu there's really little they can do about it. But that's where the Top/Dominant has to trust the bottom/submissive not to give away information that would get them into trouble.

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 9

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 8:51:53 AM

SirDominic

Posts: 711
Joined: 11/22/2006
Status: offline

quote:

Do you think Doms/Masters/Mistresses often enough understand the potential for life-changing harm their subs/slaves could do to them if they had a mind to, or do you think most D/M/M's rely on their Dominance, as opposed to a mutual trustability, to prevent such things from happening?

They are being either naive or plain dumb if Masters realy on their dominance! That is just an ego trip. Trust must be on both sides for this kind of relationship to function. Not only that, but the trust is not static, it is constantly renewed as the relationship goes forward.

Being confident that once you have the slave's trust you somehow don't have to bother about it anymore is a really bad idea. So yeah, TammyJo is definitely coming from the right place.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

_____________________________

You teach best what you have lived.

(in reply to VelvetIronTouch)

Post #: 10

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 8:56:45 AM

Bearlee

Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline

I dunno...if there is evidence of chronic or serious 'abuse'...they can certainly hassle the husband or significant-other; and occasionally do. It's amazing what a 'do-gooder' is capable of doing!

b

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 11

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 9:06:05 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

Granted. But one of the things I was taught, and that I taught others, when I was actively involved in helping people in abusive situations is not to put the abused person into prosecuting. Ethically it was deemed better to help the abuse "victim" know their rights and give them support in whatever way the decision went. We all knew it took multiple times before they would agree to leave even when it was non-consensual abuse. If the "abuse" is consensual, which I talked about when I was training people, then it was none of our business. And I was a mandatory reporter at that time due to my position. People have a right to participate in whatever they want.

(in reply to Bearlee)

Post #: 12

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 9:07:24 AM

MrDiscipline44

Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline

Maybe in your state, lizzie. But in this one, the "victim" does not need to press charges, the state will do that for her. She doesn't need to tell them who gave her the marks, they'll just note her as an abused woman and arrest the husband on suspesion of domestic abuse. She does not even need to testify or be in the courtroom. They'll just take pictures of her bruises, welts and what not and present them to the court as their proof. It is unfortunate but it does happen.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to sublizzie)

Post #: 13

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 9:08:43 AM

sublizzie

Posts: 1252
Joined: 5/26/2004
Status: offline

Guess I'm glad I live in Minnesota then.

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

Post #: 14

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 3/23/2007 10:37:15 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

Maybe in your state, lizzie. But in this one, the "victim" does not need to press charges, the state will do that for her. She doesn't need to tell them who gave her the marks, they'll just note her as an abused woman and arrest the husband on suspesion of domestic abuse. She does not even need to testify or be in the courtroom. They'll just take pictures of her bruises, welts and what not and present them to the court as their proof. It is unfortunate but it does happen.

The reasons for this was that many abused people cling to those who abuse, they truly believe they have no choices. I think the authorities were getting tired of later finding these same people dead because the abuse increased or found that the children became the next target. The idea is that is someone is too abused (what does that mean really?) they can't make decisions any more -- so they get reduced to the legal position of children for a while.

I don't think they can make the married partner testify but yeah the pictures and testimony of the doctors and cops could make a difference in court. If you aren't married, they might be able to make you testify.

Beyond all of this, I think it is a good idea to be unfront with your doctors and not lie about how you get bruises and other things. If they hear and see that you are in a loving relationship based on consent, even if it is very weird to them, I think they are far less likely to call the police when they see something. And in states where they have to report what they think is abuse, being honest about your SM may negate them thinking it is abuse.

When I was at Columbia I was the chair of a committee to educate the university health care services about these issues. Ultimately it comes down to patients getting over their fear and being upfront with them about how these things happen. You can also exercise caution when you play rougher -- if you know you have an appointment tomorrow maybe you can hold off on the heavy flogging until the day or evening after?

Of course emergencies happen and then you just have to be honest with the doctors and nurses.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

Post #: 15

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 4/27/2008 9:30:02 PM

Envisioner

Posts: 5
Joined: 10/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

I was trying to say that consent is always an issue, it is always there, you may not specifically think of it as consent anymore but the ability to consent or not is a factor forever in my experience and strong opinion. Each of us decides every day, consciously or not, to consent to the relationship, to do an action, or to express our thoughts.

I was at a recent seminar by one Rita Seagrave, wherein she talked about how consent applies before, during, and after any type of BDSM encounter. Both partners have to say, "Yes, I want us to do this". Then they start doing it, and they have to keep saying, "This is still okay, I want to keep going," or clarify if it is otherwise. And afterward, they have to come together and again say to each other, "Yes, I'm glad we did that." I thought that was an impressive way to look at it.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 16

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 4/27/2008 9:43:35 PM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: VelvetIronTouch
What do you folks feel about trust needing to be equal and go both ways?

To me, successful TPE requires complete trust and commitment. It has to run both ways or neither will gain it. You must commit to both your role in the relationship and each other.

Mutual trust requires mutual exposure. Exposure is vulnerability. Vulnerability proves trust. Trust inspires love. Love makes surrender and control possible.
------------------------------
A Fav Reference:
-=LOVE AND SURRENDER=- The gap between ego and spirit is unavoidable. It would seem impossible to close this gap, since spirit and ego are opposites. Bringing them together is achieved through surrender, and the only force that can accomplish this is love. Surrender, then, is the next phase on loves journey, which you enter as soon as you choose to be in a relationship. -Deepak Chopra

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to VelvetIronTouch)

Post #: 17

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 4/27/2008 10:01:04 PM

wwwkevinww

Posts: 276
Joined: 7/15/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: VelvetIronTouch

I like a lot of that post, but I do have issue with one part.

quote:

That consent, as much as you may wish for it to be otherwise, does not disappear and does not lose value regardless of the years you have together.

I have to say that yes, it absolutely can change. Just as love can change. Relationships can begin very well and then die. It happens. That goes for vanilla and double-chocolate-mocha-grande-muddy-sneakers-D/s.

People have epiphanys all the time, people just suddenly change who they are and what they want all the time, often because they never really did know who they were, or because they convinced themselves they wanted something else.

If someone pledges their submission to you Today, and then five years down the road that changes, you have to let it change, you have to let them go, if they need to.

I don't think I expressed myself clearly if you think I meant that things don't change.

Some people believe that once consent is given it is unimportant anymore.

I was trying to say that consent is always an issue, it is always there, you may not specifically think of it as consent anymore but the ability to consent or not is a factor forever in my experience and strong opinion. Each of us decides every day, consciously or not, to consent to the relationship, to do an action, or to express our thoughts.

I believe that everyday my slave consents to be my slave and I consent to be his owner. We can withdraw that consent at any time. If the other denies our right to consent or not, then they have stepped out of the consensual relationship into something most societies consider a crime. If that happens we shouldn't be surprised if the other person goes to legal authorities and complains.

Alot of what you say here has alot of merit and I have to agree with. But to play devil's advocate, say someone is poor/uninsured and needs a way to get off drugs they had chosen to get on, and needs to be tied up etc. They sign a binding contract to help with this, consensually, then they are pretty stuck to the contract, because obviously when they are being bound and fighting and no longer coherant, and the drugs are speaking and not them, then its no longer a question of what they want or need, but what is in their best interest.

I guess in legal terms it would be giving up your own guardianship of yourself. Obviously this would have its own legal ramifications....and goes into alot about contractual law. I think its possible to create a legal contract that is binding and forces someone into a 24/7 situation for at least a temporary period of time. I don't think its very legal to try and do anything beyond a temporary period of time contractually, although supposedly marriage contracts try to do this.....

If a woman marries a guy and is forced to provide some sexual gratification to the guy by the marriage contract (yea, they call it con-jungal rights) - which takes precedence - if the woman decides one night she doesn't want to....after 2 weeks, she still doesn't want to? she's breaking the contract...obviously he shouldn't rape her and respect her saying no, but with her obviously breaking the marriage contract I'm guessing she should also get diddly squat in the divorce....

I think trust is the most important aspect, and goes hand in hand with consensuality. Its in everyone's best interest in a relationship to be as honest as possible - its better to get divorced/end the relationship than go postal....

I'd make sure that a submissive would know that if she ever tried to slander me how that would end up. I'm honest that if a woman hits me and actually hurts me(intentionally non-consensually), I will hurt her back. I'm not going to be a punching bag and don't expect her to be either. I don't know, each relationship is different, and have met people in the lifestyle who were punching each other in the face as part of their play. To each his own.....

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 18

RE: Trust...it goes both ways - 4/27/2008 10:04:03 PM

LostMyself

Posts: 72
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline

Trust always goes both ways-- it's always a bad idea to trust someone who dosn't trust you. I had my former master and mistresses passwords, as they had mine. They'd ask me to check for messages, or fix something (I was a bit better with computers) And my mistress would screen my messages and make sure there wasn't anything that I couldn't handle.. I guess the trust ended up not being enough, because she kept getting jealous and stuff.. But isn't trust always essential in all relationships?

_____________________________

Altered Perception

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 19

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