RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (Full Version)

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NeedToUseYou -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/27/2007 8:13:12 PM)

I'd say how much a person's life is worth varies from person to person. You select how much protecting your life is worth. If you value your life enough to spend 5,000 to upgrade your bathroom againt the .00001 chance you'd have died if those enhancements weren't present. Well, I'd say that figures in your value for insuring one's own survival.

This is the whole premise, why is it your decision to put a value on my life or mine to put a value on yours and all life must share the same value. I do actually wear my seat belt most of the time. Because I view it as a good risk reduction proposition. However, it irks me to no end that someone thinks that I'm so stupid that I must be told I must wear my seatbelt or they'll take my money, or driving privileges.

You determine your life's worth. I'd say some people if I'm doing the tallying or worth negative money, and others worth millions. It's not a apples and apples proposition in my view. A rapist wife beater, meth head, is worth absolutely nothing to me. A honest hard working person, would be worth millions.

But unfortunately, I'm just a slave to the bean counters and they tell me what risk I must or must not accept, under the threat of prosecution.




petdave -> Math is hard. i'd rather rant. (3/27/2007 8:24:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ferryman777
Now, should you donate your organ/s you are fucking yourself. The actual cost of a life, is the resale value of your organs...what hospitals charge the reciepiants.


i've been told that i'm a cold-hearted SOB because i refuse to donate blood on the same principle... if i needed it from a hospital, i'd damned sure be charged for it, so why on earth would i give it away? It makes no sense.

The OP does raise a very interesting moral question, tho... i see liberals in some of the forums i frequent touting socialized medicine as though it were a magical cure-all, and roundly criticizing any hesitation to invoke ANY lifesaving measure... i always ask, when did they perfect faith healing? Because until that happens, human life will ALWAYS have a dollar value- it HAS to, because the resources required to save them are neither limitless nor free.

Of course, since someone brought up PJ O'Rourke, i'll paraphrase another bit of his philosophy that i admire...
1. If you're spending your own money on yourself, you choose the best compromise between quality and value
2. If you're spending other people's money on yourself, you choose the best quality, and value (cost) is no object
3. If you're spending your money on other people, quality will often take a backseat to value
4. And if you're spending other people's money on other people, then any damned thing will do, and to hell with what it costs.

All too many people think about .gov spending as category 2, when in practice, it's #4.

Where was i going with this?

Oh yes. 

i will don the Nomex firesuit, and bravely proclaim that not all lives should be valued equally. An experienced cardiac surgeon with a half-million dollars or more worth of specialized education simply isn't worth as the same amount as a landscaper with a GED and a pack-a-day cigarette habit. The funds devoted to maintaining the "lives" of the irretrievably brain-damaged are not being put to good use.

Now, that's all from the medical care perspective, which is a bit of a digression. From the legislation perspective, things are murky, because there's so much speculation. Maybe 100 lives would be saved this year by the bathroom police. Maybe five of those people would instead slip on a wet sidewalk that same year. Maybe the bathroom gods will demand their sacrifice and take a dozen or so regardless of .gov's best efforts. It's all damned lies and statistics, especially once Congress starts getting numbers in from the Bathroom Safety Cable division of Halliburton Industries. i'd say, legislation-wise, average cost to save an estimated life, of no more than five bucks a head for a speculative lives/year benefit of 1000 or less. Once you start getting into things that have an appreciable body count- research into cancer, heart disease, etc., the numbers start going up.

And again, we're talking value here. .Gov seems to be fighting evolution tooth and nail by devoting the greatest resources to the least worthy. If we save twenty lives a year by adding a warning to sleeping pill bottles that says "warning: may cause drowsiness", the actual cost per life is likely to be miniscule. But then, not only will those people probably contribute little or nothing to society, but then they stand a better than average chance of being the same people whose lives are saved by the warning stickers on hair dryers that say not to use them in the shower. It's an endless cycle.

Math is hard.

...dave






mnottertail -> RE: Math is hard. i'd rather rant. (3/27/2007 8:35:06 PM)

Well, I don't rightly know, but I am a little pissed off these veterans coming over here with a leg blowed off and all kinda nutzo shit, then they are gonna suck the greatest contry in the worlds precious resourses for their little pissant problems.  They are a fucking drain on the economy and we already have Vietnam vets in their 70s.  It is goddamn unamerican.

They volunteered for  fucks sake. It ain't like they were drafted? I mean c'mon, they were stupid enough to go into the army, nothing better to do......let's pass a couple  vegas brochures out to these assholes and foist em off on canada.

Ron




kiyari -> RE: Math is hard. i'd rather rant. (3/27/2007 8:43:48 PM)

Umm... ya a badass, but surely U jest? Nobody signed up for D.U., honey bunches

There is a recent news article about a guy shaming his sis who apparently is a match to donate bone marrow to him and has chosen not to... gotta be some backstory there...




Stephann -> RE: Math is hard. i'd rather rant. (3/27/2007 8:59:24 PM)

kiyari,

Yes, he's jesting.  He's our resident 'sarcasm' injection, and one of the men I respect the most here.

Stephan




kiyari -> RE: Math is hard. i'd rather rant. (3/27/2007 9:27:24 PM)

Hehe, Thanks... I kinda figured, but was not altogether certain... or maybe, was just excuse to agree after a fashion.




domiguy -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/27/2007 10:22:27 PM)

It depends...In this country we put more value on a "white" life than we do a "minority" or in particular a "black" one...It all just depends on how we are going about valuing that life.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Math is hard. i'd rather rant. (3/27/2007 10:26:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

Math is hard.

...dave


But your post is excellent.  Many kudos, petdave.

FirmKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

The OP does raise a very interesting moral question, tho... i see liberals in some of the forums i frequent touting socialized medicine as though it were a magical cure-all, and roundly criticizing any hesitation to invoke ANY lifesaving measure... i always ask, when did they perfect faith healing? Because until that happens, human life will ALWAYS have a dollar value- it HAS to, because the resources required to save them are neither limitless nor free.

Of course, since someone brought up PJ O'Rourke, i'll paraphrase another bit of his philosophy that i admire...
1. If you're spending your own money on yourself, you choose the best compromise between quality and value
2. If you're spending other people's money on yourself, you choose the best quality, and value (cost) is no object
3. If you're spending your money on other people, quality will often take a backseat to value
4. And if you're spending other people's money on other people, then any damned thing will do, and to hell with what it costs.


All too many people think about .gov spending as category 2, when in practice, it's #4.

Where was i going with this?

Oh yes. 

i will don the Nomex firesuit, and bravely proclaim that not all lives should be valued equally. An experienced cardiac surgeon with a half-million dollars or more worth of specialized education simply isn't worth as the same amount as a landscaper with a GED and a pack-a-day cigarette habit. The funds devoted to maintaining the "lives" of the irretrievably brain-damaged are not being put to good use.

Now, that's all from the medical care perspective, which is a bit of a digression. From the legislation perspective, things are murky, because there's so much speculation. Maybe 100 lives would be saved this year by the bathroom police. Maybe five of those people would instead slip on a wet sidewalk that same year. Maybe the bathroom gods will demand their sacrifice and take a dozen or so regardless of .gov's best efforts. It's all damned lies and statistics, especially once Congress starts getting numbers in from the Bathroom Safety Cable division of Halliburton Industries. i'd say, legislation-wise, average cost to save an estimated life, of no more than five bucks a head for a speculative lives/year benefit of 1000 or less. Once you start getting into things that have an appreciable body count- research into cancer, heart disease, etc., the numbers start going up.

And again, we're talking value here. .Gov seems to be fighting evolution tooth and nail by devoting the greatest resources to the least worthy. If we save twenty lives a year by adding a warning to sleeping pill bottles that says "warning: may cause drowsiness", the actual cost per life is likely to be miniscule. But then, not only will those people probably contribute little or nothing to society, but then they stand a better than average chance of being the same people whose lives are saved by the warning stickers on hair dryers that say not to use them in the shower. It's an endless cycle.




FirmhandKY -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/27/2007 10:38:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

I'd say how much a person's life is worth varies from person to person. You select how much protecting your life is worth. If you value your life enough to spend 5,000 to upgrade your bathroom againt the .00001 chance you'd have died if those enhancements weren't present. Well, I'd say that figures in your value for insuring one's own survival.


Sure.  But that's your money.  We can always do whatever we want with our money (or at least the part that the government doesn't take). What about other peoples' money?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

This is the whole premise, why is it your decision to put a value on my life or mine to put a value on yours and all life must share the same value. I do actually wear my seat belt most of the time. Because I view it as a good risk reduction proposition. However, it irks me to no end that someone thinks that I'm so stupid that I must be told I must wear my seatbelt or they'll take my money, or driving privileges.

You determine your life's worth. I'd say some people if I'm doing the tallying or worth negative money, and others worth millions. It's not a apples and apples proposition in my view. A rapist wife beater, meth head, is worth absolutely nothing to me. A honest hard working person, would be worth millions.

But unfortunately, I'm just a slave to the bean counters and they tell me what risk I must or must not accept, under the threat of prosecution.


In the examples I gave, there isn't any way to tell "whose" life will be saved.  It's a statistic.  So, in reality, it's just an "average" persons life saved. 

Just walk down the street and pick every 5th person, and tell me - how much money do you think it would be "acceptable" to have to pay to keep that person alive?

Like petdave says, math is hard.  But this question is one that is asked, and answered every day.  Just because it hard, doesn't mean we can refuse to face it.  In fact, I'd say if a person refuses to answer it, they are abrogating their responsiblity as a citizen.  This is really - really - a serious question.

If you vote, the people who you are voting for are making the decision.  Or their friendly neighbor lobbyist is.  If you had to tell your representative how much you think would be "acceptable" - how much is that figure?

In my "Bathroom" scenario, lets say it saves 100 lives a year.  How much would you be willing for each life saved to cost?

FirmKY




FirmhandKY -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/27/2007 10:47:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiyari

Well... Life after all, is a terminal disease... we all die.

In large part, I would think what you are asking has all to do with the value of the life of another, cut short, as their loss relates personally to you.

For the aspect of pain and suffering as vs some easier exit.... context applies in large or small

Philosophically, asking in theoretical contexts... well... give us case by case for our considered opinions?


If you wish, you can give a differing cost based on any factors you wish to include: age, race, profession etc. Other posters have.

I don't think someone close to you can easily be given a figure.  Most of us can't - and I'm not really asking - to put a monetary price on that situation.

I'm primarily thinking about societal costs.

Can you name a figure or give a range, or an estimate?

FirmKY




caitlyn -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/27/2007 10:56:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
then the life of a 20 year old is worth £625,000-00, whilst the life of a person aged 50 with 20 tax years remaining is £250,000-00.

Thank you, E.
1 British £ = 1.9664 US $
1 US $ = .5085 £
20 year old: £625,000 = $1,228,998
50 year old: £250,000 = $ 491,599


But women, have the potential to make more people ... and we no longer need men to do it. I think women should be worth exactly 2.5 times the amount of men. Hot women, perhaps more.[;)]




FirmhandKY -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/27/2007 11:24:27 PM)

Maybe this will help.

Estimates of Work-Life Earnings 
US Census Burea May 2002

Average Annual Earnings by Education:

Adults ages 25 to 64 who worked at any time during the study period earned an average of $34,700 per year. Average earnings ranged from $18,900 for high school dropouts to $25,900 for high school graduates, $45,400 for college graduates, and $99,300 for workers with professional degrees (M.D., J.D., D.D.S., or D.V.M.).


Average Annual Earnings by Education:

Drop Out:..........$18,900
HS:....................$25,900   
College:.............$45,400
Professional:......$99,300
Average:............$34,700

For full-time, year-round workers, the 40-year synthetic earnings estimates are about $1.0 million (in 1999 dollars) for high school dropouts, while completing high school would increase earnings by another quarter-million dollars (to $1.2 million). People who attended some college (but did not earn a degree) might expect work-life earnings of about $1.5 million, and slightly more for people with associates degrees ($1.6 million). Over a work-life, individuals who have a bachelor’s degree would earn on average $2.1 million — about one third more than workers who did not finish college, and nearly twice as much as workers with only a high school diploma. A master’s degree holder tops a bachelor’s degree holder at $2.5 million. Doctoral ($3.4 million) and professional degree holders ($4.4 million) do even better.

On average, a man with a high school education will earn about $1.4 million from ages 25 to 64 years. This compares with about $2.5 million for men completing a bachelor’s degree and $4.8 million for men with a professional degree. In contrast, men with less than a high school education will earn an average of $1.1 million

Women completing high school will earn an average of $1.0 million, about 40 percent less than the estimated $1.6 million for women completing a bachelor’s degree. The work-life payoffs for women with professional ($2.9 million) and doctoral ($2.5 million) degrees, though substantial, lag markedly behind those of men with the same educational attainment.

The cumulated difference between men and women amounts to about $350,000 for high school dropouts. The difference increases to $450,000 for high school graduates and to about twice that for bachelor’s degree holders. Men with professional degrees may expect to earn almost $2 million more than their female counterparts over their work-life.

Average Lifetime Earnings by Education:

Education.............Average...........Men.................Women

Drop Out:............$1.0 million.....$1.1 million......$750,000
HS:......................$1.2 million.....$1.4 million......$1.0 million
Some College:.....$1.5 million
Associates:...........$1.6 million
Bachelors:............$2.1 million.....$2.5 million......$ 1.6 million
Masters:...............$2.5 million
Doctoral:.............$3.4 million...............................$2.5 million
Professional:........$4.4 million......$4.8 million......$2.9 million


The report also has figures by race, if anyone is interested.

FirmKY





Real0ne -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/28/2007 3:51:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY



So, your range is:

Low Price of a Human: $4.50

to

High Price of a Human: $45,000,000

FirmKY


well thats not really accurate.

GW is worth -10trillion
rothschild goes for around 500 billion

so the range is really -10,000,000,000,000 to +500,000,000,000




domiguy -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/28/2007 8:13:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
then the life of a 20 year old is worth £625,000-00, whilst the life of a person aged 50 with 20 tax years remaining is £250,000-00.

Thank you, E.
1 British £ = 1.9664 US $
1 US $ = .5085 £
20 year old: £625,000 = $1,228,998
50 year old: £250,000 = $ 491,599


But women, have the potential to make more people ... and we no longer need men to do it. I think women should be worth exactly 2.5 times the amount of men. Hot women, perhaps more.[;)]


Well obviously HOT women have to be worth more!!!...I just can't imagine a "Domiguy" being created by one of these pathetic fat subs!!!!




domiguy -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/28/2007 8:48:34 AM)

And another thing Firmhand. If you think that I will sit idly by while your posts take on the lackadaisical flavor of this one think again...Buddy! I want your posts mean and based on your conservative views....(Domiguy spies Firmhand making out with lost treasure in the seedy Nigerian sub section of CMville)....Oh Firmy!..Look what she has done to you....You big ol' softy....(Domiguy hangs head in disgust...Goes to get some tasty Nigerian food and a blowjob)




Stephann -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/28/2007 10:33:05 AM)

Domiguy,

Actually, I figure in Ethiopia you could charge for blowjobs, considering their protein content.....

Stephan




FirmhandKY -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/28/2007 11:00:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

And another thing Firmhand. If you think that I will sit idly by while your posts take on the lackadaisical flavor of this one think again...Buddy! I want your posts mean and based on your conservative views....(Domiguy spies Firmhand making out with lost treasure in the seedy Nigerian sub section of CMville)....Oh Firmy!..Look what she has done to you....You big ol' softy....(Domiguy hangs head in disgust...Goes to get some tasty Nigerian food and a blowjob)


[:D]

Domiguy,

I'll admit that have treasure close by may ... I repeat may ... have mellowed me a bit from time to time, but I think you are under a misapprehension too.

I'm not really a "conservative".  I'm a liberal, and have been for a long time.  The only thing is, the term "liberal" has been hijacked by a very ideologically different belief system.

I just happen to be a classical liberal (my post):

Classical Liberalism (Wiki article):
Classical liberalism (also known as traditional liberalism and laissez-faire liberalism) is a doctrine stressing the importance of human rationality, individual property rights, natural rights, constitutional limitations of government, the protection of civil liberties, an economic policy with heavy emphasis on free markets, and individual freedom from restraint ...

The only difference is that I am "religion friendly" as opposed to many classical liberals who were "religion non-friendly".

And, if you think about it, this thread is a very strong "attack" on the people who consider themselves "liberal" today:  it recognizes that free markets are rational, that financial decisions about life and death are made daily in government, (that government control of our budget is a literally a life or death decision) and that while it may be emotionally comforting to avoid "responsibility" for the deaths of others in society by avoiding the question, you are making them whether or not you wish to admit them.

Not facing this means that you are giving up some of those "liberal" rights and responsibilities to the government. 

So ... what is an "acceptable" cost of saving a life for you?  [:)]

FirmKY




meatcleaver -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/28/2007 11:16:35 AM)

Only a market orientated society where 'god' is the market would a monetary value be placed on someone's life. It amazes me that you 'FirmhandKY', keep talking about Christianity in your posts and then consider the value of life in dollars. Well, why not incorporate much of America since most Americans consider themselves to be Christian or spiritual, yet as a society the value of a life very much depends on a person's ability to consume ie. wealth. Maybe I have this perception because I think the protestant view of the world, that people get what they deserve is about as Christian as Pontius Pilot was and which I can't take Christian adherents seriously.

You remarked on petdave's post being a good one, so let's look at the essentials.

1. If you're spending your own money on yourself, you choose the best compromise between quality and value
2. If you're spending other people's money on yourself, you choose the best quality, and value (cost) is no object
3. If you're spending your money on other people, quality will often take a backseat to value
4. And if you're spending other people's money on other people, then any damned thing will do, and to hell with what it costs.

 
All too many people think about .gov spending as category 2, when in practice, it's #4.
 
It certainly ties in with current western political thought that all individuals are selfish and all strategize to maximize situations to ones own benefit. Yes, there is a limit to resources and rational decisions have to be made. This isn't putting a monetary value on life so much as being realistic about a situation. If you believe all people are selfish and working for their own benefit at the expense of you, you will never have enough money for your own security and healthcare. If you have a more positive view and have some faith in working together with people to make a society worthwhile for all, individuals contributions can be kept to a realistic minimum. Don't forget, people with a positive outlook on life, have interests and are a member of a socially functioning and secure society, tend to have less illness than people who are loners and live in a dysfunctional society.
 
Thinking everyone is motivated by self interest and strategizes for their own benefit at the expense of others can only be described as paranoia. If everyone thinks that way, you can bet your life you are being ripped off by your medical insurance, by your medical practioners and anyone else whose path you have the misfortune to cross. Don't forget, their motivation is not to protect your life but to make a profit from your life. That might be in their interest to cure what illness you might have or it might not, however, how do you know which it is? While this might create a wealthy society, it sounds pretty dysfunctional to me.
 
At some point, you have to forget the price of a life and put your trust in someone. Oscar Wilde springs to mind. This thread knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.




FirmhandKY -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/28/2007 11:54:58 AM)

ahhh, meat!

I hope it's worth waiting for!  [:D]

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

[waiting approval]





Wildfleurs -> RE: What is the monetary cost of a life? (3/28/2007 12:23:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
So ...

What do you consider an "acceptable" monetary cost for saving a life?

$50?
$500,000?
$1,000,000?
$10,000,000?

FirmKY


It depends hugely on the person.  I've done cost-benefit analysis when I was in graduate school and the value of someone's life depends on if they spawned, their age, their health status (basically how long they were prolly going to live), how much they made, whether they were the primarily breadwinner, race and gender (again those things affect the average age that they will die),

I don't have a line in the sand on what I think is the acceptable cost, for me it does depend.  However I do think its easier to be callous about the value of life in hypotheticals, but if you are that one in a million that could die it becomes quite a bit more importnat to spend money to save a life.

C~




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