Real sub or not? (Full Version)

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LadyMarmalade1 -> Real sub or not? (3/28/2007 11:33:06 AM)

In reading another forum, I was reminded that many subs are looking for pain and punishment as a way to get past bad experiences or guilt over past experiences.

A sub I know often asks me if he is a real sub or if it is all just about seeking pain and punishment because it seems to help him deal with a painful experience in his past.

In my opinion he is a submissive, but it is hard for me to fıgure out what the right thing to say is, not to mention the concept of a "real" sub (which I think he just means in relation to a man who seeks pain as therapy so to speak).  Plus I know it is hard for him to understand himself.

So my question is (and I hope this makes sense to some one out there) is there a difference between these two types of people? are they the same? does any one have any feelings on this.

It's just something that I'm not really sure about.  Opinions welcome:)

Thanks
Lady Marmalade



BoiJen -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/28/2007 11:38:31 AM)

I think the opinion of "real and not real" in within one's own mind. As people we are naturally flawed...though we all know some who don't recognize this or who feel they are closer to perfect than others...anyways....tehrefore: its not really our place to judge the validity of another's feelings. I will asy this however, submission and bottomign are two different things. submission is a feeling and emotional connecting. Play is pain or whatever you as an individual choose to do(topping and bottoming). Servants serve (cleaning cooking etc) and slaves are the implemantation of service through submission.





LadyMarmalade1 -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/28/2007 11:44:38 AM)

Yes, I completely agree that "real" is all in the eyes of the beholder and I don't think it is right to judge one person against another.

I think he was born a submissive man and would be submissive and want to serve no matter what, however I think he believes he wouldn't be submissive if he hadn't had these past bad experiences.

I think this is a better way to make my question:  Is he a sub anyway? or is it just that he wants the pain/punishment because of the bad past?

hmmm...

Lady M



BoiJen -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/28/2007 11:52:31 AM)

Well...I was raped as a child and some tend to ask me if that's why I'm a lesbian...this is how I see it.

No it's not why...but it did help me recognize who I am and accept me for me at an earlier age. Hope this helps.



LadyMarmalade1 -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/28/2007 11:56:30 AM)

Hmm.  Thanks it does help.  I'm always sorry to hear about people who had bad experiences.  I'm glad it helped you accept yourself for who you are at an early age, my sub is still trying to find himself.

Thanks again.
Lady M



MistressMelissa -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/28/2007 1:19:50 PM)

There are bottoms, subs and slaves. So my question is how do you define sub? I will give you my definition so I can continue my thought.

bottom, a play term describing ones role during a scene. This is the one being "flogged" and they establish the limits for that scene. Bottoming has no influence upon their personal nature and many very dominant people will bottom as a release of stress. A way of seeking balance in their lives.

Subs or slaves are people with a submissive nature and find great pleasure in serving others. Often times they "bottom" and thus people confuse the terms. Subs/slaves tend to avoid conflict and just want everyone to play nice. They thrive on their service to their owner. Many find the outside world and it's lack of rules confusing and thus they look for a dominant to establish limits to their world. The sub or slave needs to know there are limits to their world.

Many men bottom, they don't submit. That is a distinction. They enjoy their scene and when it's over they are back in control and ready to take on the world. They use Pro's since they can get exactly the scene they wish to purchase. For a bottom it's about getting their fix. The sub is not so much concerned with their own pleasure as the pleasure of the one they serve. It's a matter of priorities. The vast majority of men who claim to be sub/slave are really bottoms just looking for a kink fix and that's great if they are honest about it. While a bottom might role play a submissive, a submissive is a submissive 24/7 365 days a years. It does not make them weak or a door mat, it's just who they are.

Thus if someone is really a bottom, they may or may not be a "real submissive". I don't know your friend, so I can't say if he's a bottom or a sub.



hereyesruponyou -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/28/2007 2:13:42 PM)

Wow, nice description. I like to bottom, but can't really submit, now i understand myself better.  THANKS!!!



BoiJen -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/28/2007 6:51:53 PM)

submissives and slaves cannot be put into the same category...we don't feel and operate the same...that's why there are two different terms...however it is up to the individual to define themselves as they see fit and to use whatever term suits them



pixelslave -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/28/2007 7:53:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMarmalade1

In reading another forum, I was reminded that many subs are looking for pain and punishment as a way to get past bad experiences or guilt over past experiences.

A sub I know often asks me if he is a real sub or if it is all just about seeking pain and punishment because it seems to help him deal with a painful experience in his past.

In my opinion he is a submissive, but it is hard for me to fıgure out what the right thing to say is, not to mention the concept of a "real" sub (which I think he just means in relation to a man who seeks pain as therapy so to speak).  Plus I know it is hard for him to understand himself.

So my question is (and I hope this makes sense to some one out there) is there a difference between these two types of people? are they the same? does any one have any feelings on this.

It's just something that I'm not really sure about.  Opinions welcome:)

Thanks
Lady Marmalade



LadyMarmalade,
I once had a discussion on this issue which I found quite enlightening with a domme who that was very much into giving pain.  She told me that many of her subjects found it very cathartic or sought atonement through the pain she gave them with her whips, crops and paddles.  Let me make it perfectly clear that she did not mean this in any religious manner.  The discussion we had was some time ago and very extensive and I've since forgotten many of the details which she shared. 
 
The gist of what I wish to share is that for many, the experience of receiving pain relieves them from the guilt which they otherwise feel about many different kinds of things and are enormously varied; from things they do at work, secret desires they keep to themselves, to secrets from the past which they cannot reconcile.
 
I know this doesn't help you resolve the question of his being sub or not, but perhaps that isn't the question that really needs to be asked? [8|]
 
 - pixel



LadyMarmalade1 -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/29/2007 9:48:37 AM)

Thanks MistressMelissa for your definitions.  I agree with you regarding the difference between bottoms and subs/slaves (but I also agree with BoiJen that subs and slaves are also different categories).

While my sub is in my opinion not a bottom but a sub (en route to becoming a slave), I guess I'm curious about where his submission came from, if it was born in him or was a result of his desire for pain in a cathartic sense, as pixelslave pointed out is common.

I guess if he was only looking for pain and punishment but not looking to serve me with al his heart it would be something diffrent than submission/slavery/bottoming.  But since he also wants to serve me and submit to me in every way possible as well as recieving pain/punishments, then I guess it is submission.

To me, he is always my sub, and a real one at that, based on my definitions. 

Ok, I've blabbed on about it enough.  Thanks to everyones input.
Lady Marmalade 

ps. sorry i posted this only as a reply to MistressMelissa, I'm really not good at computers:)



subfever -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/29/2007 12:02:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMarmalade1

In reading another forum, I was reminded that many subs are looking for pain and punishment as a way to get past bad experiences or guilt over past experiences.

A sub I know often asks me if he is a real sub or if it is all just about seeking pain and punishment because it seems to help him deal with a painful experience in his past.

In my opinion he is a submissive, but it is hard for me to fıgure out what the right thing to say is, not to mention the concept of a "real" sub (which I think he just means in relation to a man who seeks pain as therapy so to speak).  Plus I know it is hard for him to understand himself.

So my question is (and I hope this makes sense to some one out there) is there a difference between these two types of people? are they the same? does any one have any feelings on this.

It's just something that I'm not really sure about.  Opinions welcome:)

Thanks
Lady Marmalade



IMO, people are often drawn to D/s to process unresolved negative emotions... which may include guilt, anger, damaged self esteem, etc. My guess is that this occurs on a subconscious level more often than not.

Since D/s play often provides a sexual enhancement, it's easy to understand how participants may ignore or not even recognize the potential underlying dynamics of negative emotion processing that are taking place.



BoiJen -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/29/2007 12:22:15 PM)

It's like...being attracted to women with that MILF energy...that Mommy nurturing thing...no one wants to admit to that kind of complex



MsCfromMelbourne -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/29/2007 11:16:44 PM)

Mmmm...this is going to be hard to articulate.  I will do my best

Definitions such as sub vs slave vs bottom can be helpful to understand what is going on in a scene

However they can be really unhelpful when use to label the whole person all the time.

For example, my "submissive" has many roles: boyfriend, best friend, lover, submissive and slave

I agree that submisisves and slaves do not feel and operate the same way.  But the same person can feel (and operate) many ways.  Its helpful to label some behaviour, but not the whole person.  We humans are more complex than that.

Your friend may find pain and punishment cathartic. Lots of slaves and submissives do.  But that does not make them any more or less a slave or submissive.



molliemallme -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/30/2007 1:56:18 AM)

That was amazingly helpful. I am brand new at this and found it so confusing, and may people confusing as well. You really put a light on it for me. Thank you!



Unrepentant1 -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/30/2007 8:12:02 AM)

Why do we have to give everyone a tag? Although I see myself as sub, I am me, take it or leave it, some love me others not. How we react though, depends on those we meet and those we connect with. I adore and worship dominant women, but would only sub to a select few not any, so the tag for those I do not sub for is irrelevant. I can still be friends and still chat, but to be sub I need something in a person that connects with me.



Missokyst -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/30/2007 10:06:07 AM)

I don't think I have ever referred to myself as a "real submissive".  I do think that some of us developed this trait as a coping skill to get them through stuff.  I find that people who need to use submission for that purpose are more likely to fall back into it easily, than non damaged people who simply enjoy kink.  In my observation over the years I have noted that people who do this only because they enjoy kink are more tend to slide back into nilla when they find a satisfying relationship. 
I do not see myself as a "real submissive"  because for the most part I don't have the ability to submit unless I truly feel safe.  However.. I am a genuine masochist.  My physical need to vent my masochism is real.  Sometimes it appears that submission comes along with it, but really, I am not submitting when I am being maso.  I am just indulging the need to put my body at risk.
Submission for me is more mental.
Kyst



pixelslave -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/30/2007 11:25:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyMarmalade1

While my sub is in my opinion not a bottom but a sub (en route to becoming a slave), I guess I'm curious about where his submission came from, if it was born in him or was a result of his desire for pain in a cathartic sense, as pixelslave pointed out is common.

I guess if he was only looking for pain and punishment but not looking to serve me with al his heart it would be something diffrent than submission/slavery/bottoming.  But since he also wants to serve me and submit to me in every way possible as well as recieving pain/punishments, then I guess it is submission.



The domme that I mentioned in my earlier post, used the example of a businessman she had played with who often had to do things at work that he didn't enjoy and felt guilt over them which he needed to release.  One example was that during a downturn in business he was ordered to lay-off a number of his co-workers.  He later cried following a flogging, thus releasing the emotions he had held within regarding that event.  That's just one example of how much of what she was talking about was not about traumatic events from the past. 
 
I simply had wanted to use this opportunity to state again of clarify for anyone who missed it, that what she was explaining to me was not in any way related to particular religous sects where the confession of sins and acts of repentance or contrition are part of their practices.  This is an entirely different thing that seems to be a spontaneous release of emotion which she's been observing for a number of years with people she's had as partners or played with.  It doesn't happen with everyone.  From what she described, I suspect it is probably related to how well they process things on their own and how well they outwardly or consciously deal-with/process their emotions at the time when these events first occur.  If they don't do that very well, they remain in the subconscious until something else such as experiencing pain from play, causes them to emerge.
 
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

IMO, people are often drawn to D/s to process unresolved negative emotions... which may include guilt, anger, damaged self esteem, etc. My guess is that this occurs on a subconscious level more often than not.



I'd agree with you on at least part of this subfever.  For many, I think it is actually a conscious decision in that they're typically at least aware of the negative emotions or trauma and don't know how to process or deal with them in any other manner; thus the reason they are drawn to the lifestyle.  I think its important to be conciously aware of your attraction to the D/s or BDSM lifestyle and even more important, if not critical to your safety that you especially be aware of the driving factors behind your partner's attraction to it.  Its my opinion that the people you speak of are the ones who are likely the most vulnerable to being abused if submissive.  I also suspect they're also the ones who are the most likely to become abusers if dominants. 
 
 - pixel



MadRabbit -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/30/2007 11:33:25 AM)

He's a man who wants pain and punishment to deal with a painful experience in the past.

I want someone who wants to serve me as well as take pain from me.

This person wont be a good match for me as a partner.

This is how I view people as opposed to submissive/bottom/top.

So far...it keeps me sane.

I will leave whether he is a real sub or not up to the people who are smarter than me.

(I use submiisve and bottom in my writings to make the distinction between a D/S relationship and a play scene)



LadyMarmalade1 -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/30/2007 12:30:21 PM)

Thanks pixelslave,

You've helped me to understand it better.  Now I have to figure out how to explain it to my sub in simple english :) He's also trying to understand himself and his feeling of submission better.

Thanks again,
Lady Marmalade



pixelslave -> RE: Real sub or not? (3/30/2007 6:10:02 PM)

You're very welcome Lady Marmalade.  I can say from personal experience that when one has gone through traumatic experiences at an early age, one way of trying to understand and deal with those traumatic events that can happen as they try to come to grips with those events later, is to re-enact them over and over as an adult in some similar fashion in the hope of trying to achieve a different outcome.  Regardless of how many times a person does that, it never changes the facts of what happened to begin with, nor does it help them resolve the conflicts and internal struggles they may have with what happened, usually over which they had no control. 
 
I obviously have no idea of the details of what happened with your sub, but continuing to include an activity during play that reminds your sub of something unpleasant from the past that doesn't also make him feel better about it is, in my opinion, not healthy for him.  I suggest he seek help for what is troubling him if that is the case.  At some point, those who have experienced trauma, need to learn to move beyond the past and live in the present.  Otherwise, they continue to traumatize themselves and miss many of the wonderful things life has to offer them, including the many pleasures that are possible in the relationships they can have with Mistresses who post here on CM. [sm=lol.gif]
 
 - pixel



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