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RE: Republican morality - 4/2/2007 7:41:31 PM

SirDiscipliner69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

The main reason our medical and pharma companies are so rabidly opposed to socialized medicine in the United States is that it would empower the government to negotiate on an even field for treatment costs.

That would mean the end for charging African countries extremely high rates for AIDS medication.

Sometimes it would be nice to see humanity shine through instead of the greed.

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses."

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 101

RE: Republican morality - 4/2/2007 8:45:22 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

I agree with this, in a sense, Marc2b. I was married to a Canadian who absolutely loved my union benefits... etc.

I understand people’s reasons for wanting socialized medicine but there is a huge difference between people’s plans and reality. Socialized medicine is basically price controls and price controls always lead to a reduction in quality and often quantity as well. I’m a firm believer in the free market. If we had a truly free market I think we would be surprised how many people could afford their own health care. A free market would lead to greater tax revenue for the government and, with a little fiscal discipline, we could have a real surplus – that is, after we pay off the national debt (it is surprising how many people confuse the deficit with the debt) which could then be used to truly help out those in need, when they need it. Alas, it would take us several years to get there and the American people just don’t seem to have the patience for anything other than the quick fix.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 102

RE: Republican morality - 4/2/2007 8:59:07 PM

SimplyMichael

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Reaganomics ain't what it used to be, the name has changed, it is now the Laughter Curve except nobody is laughing.

Want to see what your neoliberal fantasy produces? Look to Iraq because they tried that bullshit insanity there and it is a major reason (other than ignoring the Shia/Sunni divide) that Iraq is such a shithole. As the saying goes "Republicans can't even run a third world country".

How exactly would you go about getting your free market for medical care? The AMA doesn't want it, Big Pharma doesn't want it, nobody making money now wants it.

Free markets are about as real a dream as free love...

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 103

RE: Republican morality - 4/2/2007 9:01:54 PM

caitlyn

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Probably because so many people need a quick fix. It's a mess out there on the streets, just so you know.

"Caring for the poor will not make you a great society, but a great society should care for the poor. Pity them if you must, but care for them ... not because you must, but because it is the right thing to do."
Hadrian

One would imagine if we had the will, we could come up with a system where poor people can get proper care, and rich people can still get Demerol from their doctor.

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 104

RE: Republican morality - 4/2/2007 9:23:38 PM

Evlgryn

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Joined: 9/24/2004
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We are living in a time of airheads in the whitehouse, and snotnose MBAs in charge or the world. Did anyone notice Bush talking about the "first latino mayor of Los Angeles" serving this year. Of course if you drank your way through college you probably didn't remember that Los Angeles was a Mexican city for hundreds of years...do you suppose they had a mayor? And when they scurried to "explain", and correct his error, nobody blinked an eye...

And you guys are no better...talking about invading mexico. The truth is we did invade Mexico, more than once, and take Mexico city. Only people who are using censored history books and can't understand the real dynamics of this continent would forget that one..Or are you saying we should reinvade every hundred years or so, just to put the fear of god in them?

For the record, I am not latino, but in favour of telling the truth. My people served on the northern side of the civil war, I am American. Most of my lineage is from the British Isles, some by way of Canada, and America didn't do very well at all in it's attempt to invade Canada. I just feel we should give credit where credit is due..

Just in passing, remember a large number of the veteran fighter pilots fighting the Nazis in the "BATTLE OF BRITAIN" were Polish!!

Look that up in your Funk and Wagnalls.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 105

RE: Republican morality - 4/2/2007 9:27:53 PM

Sinergy

Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evlgryn

Look that up in your Funk and Wagnalls.

Here I thought the Vandals saying "Put that on your fucking toast, fuckface" was hilarious.

I need to write that down.

The problem I have with the whole invading other people is I am of the gradually shrinking minority of people in this country who think we have enough crap to clean up in our own backyard, and we should fix all that stuff before we start picking on our neighbors.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Evlgryn)

Post #: 106

RE: Republican morality - 4/2/2007 9:54:13 PM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Nope sinergy, that is not what I was refering to. A direct comment at me was made, and when I called the person on it, they deleted, and tried to pretend it was never said. Surley you agree that is dishonest and pathetic.

luckydog1:
We are all so very interested in finding out just who this miscreant was and how you were defamed....please do tell us.
thompson

(in reply to luckydog1)

Post #: 107

RE: Republican morality - 4/2/2007 10:45:45 PM

SimplyMichael

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Caitlyn,

Have you read any of Polanyi's works? I am considering holding a seminar to discuss alternatives to modern economic theory. Should be fun to rile up our Econ. Dept.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 108

RE: Republican morality - 4/3/2007 7:58:03 AM

ferryman777

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Joined: 2/23/2007
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Remember Bob Dole....He proposed a system whereby a portion of your paycheck would have a deduction, designated for health care benefits; and retirement benefits as well, after a certain age, or in the case of disability.

And...whats wrong with the medical industry, the Pharm's, and insurances making a little profit? I mean they have expenses too.

(in reply to Sinergy)

Post #: 109

RE: Republican morality - 4/3/2007 8:10:10 AM

lockedaway

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Dear Evylgrn,

I don't know who is using censored history, certainly not I. You make it sound as though we could never invade Mexico because we have invaded them twice before, first over the actions of Santa Anna and next over the actions of Pancho Villa. It is entirely appropriate to invade Mexico if the acts or omissions of that country have such a negative impact on this country that invasion becomes necessary to rectify the problem. And that goes for any other country in the world as well.

(in reply to ferryman777)

Post #: 110

RE: Republican morality - 4/3/2007 8:10:49 AM

ferryman777

Posts: 198
Joined: 2/23/2007
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BRAVO;...... and the Polish air squadron was one of the most fearsome in all the world, accounting for more nazi kills than any other air squadron; also suffering the most fatalities. Those Poles were intent upon getting their country back; they were fearless.

Gerring had designated Poland to be his personal private hunting reserve,grounds. Poland was taken off the maps, with the nazis, it technically, no longer existed.

Mexico owned mostly all of Souhern California, Vedugo Family, along with the Carrillo Family owned all of what is now Los Angeles, and Malibu.

Not to worry Evlgryn, when Bush attains the control of the oil, the USofA will not need to invade anywhere, remenber...he who owns the spice, controls the universe.

(in reply to Evlgryn)

Post #: 111

RE: Republican morality - 4/3/2007 8:15:39 AM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ferryman777

Remember Bob Dole....He proposed a system whereby a portion of your paycheck would have a deduction, designated for health care benefits; and retirement benefits as well, after a certain age, or in the case of disability.

And...whats wrong with the medical industry, the Pharm's, and insurances making a little profit? I mean they have expenses too.

ferryman777:
I do not have a problem with the insurance companies or the drug companies maiking a little profit. What I have a problem with is their restraint of the free enterprise system.
thompson

(in reply to ferryman777)

Post #: 112

RE: Republican morality - 4/3/2007 8:15:58 AM

lockedaway

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Joined: 3/15/2007
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Marc2B,

I was in London last year. The friends that I stayed with had private health care coverage. I guess that was in addition to what was provided by their government. According to my host and hostess, the medical services in London were abismal! I was watching a bit of British television and one of the parties' campaign platforms was to reduce MRSA in the hospitals. That sounded 1) pathetic and 2) scary. The last thing this country needs is socialized ANYTHING. What this country needs is to collect 90% of its tax base instead of 40%. I think that would be a great start to curing a whole myriad of problems.

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 113

RE: Republican morality - 4/3/2007 8:20:07 AM

thompsonx

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Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Dear Evylgrn,

I don't know who is using censored history, certainly not I. You make it sound as though we could never invade Mexico because we have invaded them twice before, first over the actions of Santa Anna and next over the actions of Pancho Villa. It is entirely appropriate to invade Mexico if the acts or omissions of that country have such a negative impact on this country that invasion becomes necessary to rectify the problem. And that goes for any other country in the world as well.

lockedaway:
Perhaps you might enlighten us as to what exactly Santa Ana did that justified the U.S. invasion of Mexico.
Would you feel Mexico would be justified in invading the U.S, to arrest an american citizen who had commited a crime in Mexico and the U.S. would not extradite?
thompson

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 114

RE: Republican morality - 4/3/2007 11:05:17 AM

Marc2b

Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

Reaganomics ain't what it used to be, the name has changed, it is now the Laughter Curve except nobody is laughing.

Reagonomics is just another way of saying let’s not punitively tax people for being successful." It worked. Under Regan government revenues nearly doubled. We would have had a surplus if the government could have restrained it's spending. As it was, during the same period, spending nearly tripled and so...

quote:

Want to see what your neoliberal fantasy produces?

Now I’m a neoliberal? Where the fuck did that come from?

quote:

Look to Iraq because they tried that bullshit insanity there and it is a major reason (other than ignoring the Shia/Sunni divide) that Iraq is such a shithole. As the saying goes "Republicans can't even run a third world country".

I have talked to more than one person who has been to Iraq (friends, friends of friends, people who have wandered into the art gallery) and they are all unanimous in saying that 70 -80% of the country is doing anywhere from good to great. One person even said that there were parts of Iraq you’d be hard pressed to tell the difference from a typical American suburb. Most of the violence is centered around Baghdad and is more akin to gang warfare than an insurrection. They also all agree that the media presents a distorted and lopsided view of the situation.

quote:

How exactly would you go about getting your free market for medical care?

Simple (which is not the same as easy). Phase out Medicare and Medicaid.

quote:

The AMA doesn't want it, Big Pharma doesn't want it, nobody making money now wants it.

Of course they don’t want it. One of the biggest myths is that big business loves the free market when in fact they hate it. They hate it because the free market allows competition. Competition that may cut into their profits. More so, they and their useful idiots (socialists) have convinced a large part of the American populace that free markets are against their best interests when the opposite is true.

quote:

Free markets are about as real a dream as free love...

And therein lies the problem.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 4/3/2007 11:20:09 AM >

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 115

RE: Republican morality - 4/3/2007 11:11:09 AM

Marc2b

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Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

Probably because so many people need a quick fix. It's a mess out there on the streets, just so you know.

But the quick fix never works so the problem remains unsolved. We have a choice, continue using quick fixes that never work and so never solve the problem or endure a few hard years of transition to something better.

quote:

One would imagine if we had the will, we could come up with a system where poor people can get proper care, and rich people can still get Demerol from their doctor.

We already have. It’s called the free market. Now if we would just actually use it...

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 116

RE: Republican morality - 4/3/2007 11:18:22 AM

Marc2b

Posts: 6660
Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

I was in London last year. The friends that I stayed with had private health care coverage. I guess that was in addition to what was provided by their government. According to my host and hostess, the medical services in London were abismal!

I’m not the least bit surprised. What people who favor socialized medicine (or anything for that matter) don’t realize is that the doctor getting a government paycheck, who gets paid no matter what, has no incentive to do his best for his patients. A doctor in a free market system, on the other hand, can’t afford – literally – a reputation for incompetence.

_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to lockedaway)

Post #: 117

RE: Republican morality - 4/3/2007 1:09:11 PM

thompsonx

Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I was in London last year. The friends that I stayed with had private health care coverage. I guess that was in addition to what was provided by their government. According to my host and hostess, the medical services in London were abismal!

I’m not the least bit surprised. What people who favor socialized medicine (or anything for that matter) don’t realize is that the doctor getting a government paycheck, who gets paid no matter what, has no incentive to do his best for his patients. A doctor in a free market system, on the other hand, can’t afford – literally – a reputation for incompetence.

Mark2b:
I do not understand why you refer to american health care as free enterprise. The AMA controls not only the certification of med schools but also certification of doctors. Artifically limiting their numbers so as to keep fees high.
Trying to get a doctor labeled as incompetent is very difficult ...they are a lot like cops in that sense. Getting one to testify against one of his "brothers" is virtually unknown and the discipline that is handed down from the AMA amounts to nothing more than a repremand in most cases..."What ...you cut off the wrong leg....you are going to have to be more careful in the future"
You say that any type of socialized service is wrong...we have socialized police protection, fire protection, electric power generation and the list goes on. Yes I realize that there are private police and fire and power companies etc but in the main these are all government authorized monopolies....not much different than the concept of socialized medicine.
thompson

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 118

RE: Republican morality - 4/3/2007 4:24:12 PM

caitlyn

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Joined: 12/22/2004
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My day out there was when I was twelve/thirteen. That was several years ago, and nothing has changed. When do you suppose we start these few hard years, and when would you predict they will end?

Free market ... as if anything is ever free, when you are down on your luck.

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 119

RE: Republican morality - 4/3/2007 5:02:57 PM

Sinergy

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Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

I agree with this, in a sense, Marc2b. I was married to a Canadian who absolutely loved my union benefits... etc.

I understand people’s reasons for wanting socialized medicine but there is a huge difference between people’s plans and reality. Socialized medicine is basically price controls and price controls always lead to a reduction in quality and often quantity as well.

We have socialized medicine in the United States. Our housekeeper was a legal resident of the United States (had a "real" job with a green card as well) and at one point went to the hospital for asthma. After being on oxygen for 4 hours and sent home, she ended up returning to Zacatecas a month or so later.

The hospital called my house and attempted to collect on their $16,000 emergency room bill. I pointed out she worked for us, but that was as far as my connection to her was. The hospital pointed out that if she had financial issues, she could qualify for a government program to pay the medical cost.

1) 4 hours of oxygen for $16,000 seemed a bit excessive to me.

2) The government ponied up the money and paid for her care.

As I pointed out, the Government cannot tell the hospital that they will only pay X for their services.

Socialized medicine protects the taxpayer and the government. Lack of it protects the medical and pharmaceutical establishment.

Who is more deserving of the power in this relationship?

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 120

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