Submission vs. masochim/fetishism and the vanilla partner (Full Version)

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petdave -> Submission vs. masochim/fetishism and the vanilla partner (3/30/2007 12:06:27 PM)

i'm sure this has been discussed at length (thanks in advance Aileen), but perhaps i just feel a need to write. Perhaps this isn't the best place for it, perhaps it's the only place i have.

Let us speak of a hypathetical submale. Born "different"... perhaps broken. Too quiet, and bookish... and what books! War and persecution, torture and pain. And dreams of being scourged and broken on the rack. And dreams of belonging to someone, to serve her, to keep her happy, to be an outlet for her cruelty. And in the echoes, books on psychology, philosophy, history, searching for answers. For a fix.

And after 18 years of too much lonliness, he finally meets someone he can relate to. A rarity, someone who doesn't begin to irritate him after an hour or two. Someone else who has spent time alone in crowds, and uniquely, someone who cares. Someone who values the things he knows. And so they become inseparable And so they come to experiment, in fits and spurts, in the aftermath of quiet discussions in the dark, letters written through silent tears.

And so they remain inseparable. And in many ways, they remain alone, but now a team against the world. But change being the only constant in the world, not everything continues. Once conducted, the experiments are deemed adequate, and are rarely repeated. He takes on all of the duties of their shared household, and she revels openly in her lack of responsibility and labor. Yet, when things go undone, there is no consequence, because even mentioning them requires too much effort; corrective discipline is out of the question. Without value, his service diminishes. He does what needs to be done, and lives for the brief hours when he has the house to himself, and can take care of his inconvenient needs.

And things reach a head, and emotional discussion ensues, and each person blames himself or herself, and promises to do better. And they do for months, sometimes weeks.

And repeat.

And husband and wife each have the best friend that the first halves of their lives lacked. And that is all the wife needs.

And the husband brings her some happiness. He cooks for her, takes care of the pets that she wanted but now ignores. Maintains the motorcycle she wanted but now ignores. Buys her silly gifts, useful gifts, thoughtful gifts, gifts that he hopes will help her enjoy the body that she inexplicably seems to despise. Goes everywhere she wants when he'd rather stay at home, helps with everything she asks for while his own list of things to do grows, struggles to make decisions and interact with people for her, even though it goes against everything in his nature. Tries to become what she wants him to be, because he wants to be everything she needs.

And his needs, he represses at times, gives in to at others. Seemingly at random she indulges them; sometimes she merely teases, or worse, makes promises she doesn't keep. He tries to tell himself that this is her way of exerting control, and that he should be grateful for it.

And things reach a head, and emotional discussion ensues, and each person blames himself or herself, and promises to do better. And they do for months, sometimes weeks.

And he finally turns for help, and pills help him sleep at night, and wake up in the morning, and stop thinking things that he shouldn't think about motorcycles and bridge abutments. And a therapist he can barely afford suggests ways for him to start conversations, and things to say... and sometimes he comes back for the next session and lies rather than admit that he couldn't talk.

Because talking hurts. When she makes jokes about how she'll get him to do something distasteful by tying him up first, knowing that he'll do anything to be helpless for a while... knowing that he hasn't enjoyed that experience in too many months to keep track of. When she comments on how she should find another slave to do all the "bondaging" since she's too lazy to do it. He pretends he doesn't hear it, but she says it again, several times, before and after scenes over several years. And he wonders, what if he suggested finding another partner to perform foreplay on her, so that he could just focus on the sex? Poor comparison, she has no particular need for sex. What if he suggested finding someone else to cook and clean for her? Poor comparison- as long as it requires no effort, she doesn't care who does it. What if? What if? He can find no comparison. He provides no unique value. But he knows that on a very basic level, after twelve years together and more painful honesty than he ever thought he could muster, she still doesn't understand. There is intimacy and vulnerability that he seeks only from the person he loves, to whom it is no more than an onerous chore.

And he does not want to be without her, and he does not want to be with another. He wants to cut deep inside himself, and remove that burden, and throw it to the ground while the blood still drains from his body, and set it afire, and not turn away until only ashes remain. But there is no thing that can be removed.

And so what would you tell this hypathetical sub? That it sucks to be him? There is no wisdom there. To leave? He knows he would die alone, likely before the year was out. To talk? He would be happy, now, to never talk again. To find more help, different help? To bounce from doctor to doctor, perhaps try doctors of the spirit? To beat every bush for a cure? To pick at the scabs again and again, hoping to receive a magic elixir? That taking a day off work and spending it drinking is not a step along any road that is worth following? He knows. He knows too much, but never about the right things.

Peace to all,

...dave




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Submission vs. masochim/fetishism and the vanilla partner (3/30/2007 12:24:44 PM)

That he's been given the answers- he's even paid for them.

Until he's willing to break past his fears, he will remain where he is.

There's a tons of advice a person can give, all very useful only IF implemented.  For someone who consistently shows by their actions that they aren't able to change, there's nothing else to say.

You could try both of them going to therapty together, but again, that would require to start conversations.




sweetstorm -> RE: Submission vs. masochim/fetishism and the vanilla partner (3/30/2007 12:33:34 PM)

To realize that being submissive does not make your feelings ignorable or to leave them invalidated. Being submissive does not mean that you have no value. Submission and dominance is a power exchange, not a power trip. Giving to her does not mean that he should not be receiving. Submitting is a gift. Dominance is a gift.

That this submale is so easiily placated by a promise here and a pet there is not helping the situation, but only perpetuating the lack of REAL attention to the problem.

To myself, as a sub, I have always believed that being a sub means that at least once in your life you are going to have to be faced with the challenge of REALLY sticking up for yourself. And it's going to be so much harder because of the submission. But if you can't stand up to someone and say "THIS IS WHAT I WANT, THIS IS WHAT I NEED", then you are a toy. And toys get discarded and broken and neglected. You are not a toy. You need things back in return (as you are obviously finding out).

When you are unhappy in a relationship, there is only one person you can change, one person you can fix. And it isn't her. So if you are unhappy, look inside, not outside. Take care of  yourself first. Because there are times when no one else will do it for you.
And you can only carry someone else as a servant
by standing on your own two feet.




missturbation -> RE: Submission vs. masochim/fetishism and the vanilla partner (3/30/2007 12:42:59 PM)

And dreams of being scourged and broken on the rack. And dreams of belonging to someone, to serve her, to keep her happy, to be an outlet for her cruelty.
Well, from the rest of the post he certainly seems to have got that. A good example of being careful what you wish for!!
 
To me this sounds like many relationships that develop and unfortunately they grow apart, have diferent wants and needs. They talk things through, promise to change and never actually do.
 
And so what would you tell this hypathetical sub? That it sucks to be him?
Yes he would have my sympathy.
To leave? He knows he would die alone, likely before the year was out.
Yes i would advise him to leave. The next sentence well i'm sorry but its just self pity and he would not die alone. I would tell any friend of mine who said that to suck it up and grow up.
To talk? He would be happy, now, to never talk again.
Talk with his partner - no i think the talking is done. Talk with his friends - yes when he's ready.
To find more help, different help?
Probably not i'm not a big fan of pyschiatrists etc.
To bounce from doctor to doctor, perhaps try doctors of the spirit?
As above no.
To beat every bush for a cure?
A cure, he's not ill, its a failed relationship.
To pick at the scabs again and again, hoping to receive a magic elixir?
This falls further into self pity every minute.
That taking a day off work and spending it drinking is not a step along any road that is worth following?
Depends, a good drinking sensation can do wonders but not if it is a path to addiction.
 
I am truly hoping you are not referring to yourself here because i see this hypothetical story as a little pathetic and just full of self pity. Yes relationship break ups are hard but it will not kill the hypothetical sub and as they say what doesn't kill us makes us stronger.




Aileen68 -> RE: Submission vs. masochim/fetishism and the vanilla partner (3/30/2007 12:50:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

i'm sure this has been discussed at length (thanks in advance Aileen)


?????




petdave -> RE: Submission vs. masochim/fetishism and the vanilla partner (3/30/2007 2:31:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen68
quote:

ORIGINAL: petdave

i'm sure this has been discussed at length (thanks in advance Aileen)


?????


Do you not have search results for all questions? Perhaps i am mistaken

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
This falls further into self pity every minute.


To paraphrase an old country song, You can't pity everyone, so you got to pity yourself [&:] i claim no innocence.

But thank you.

...dave




hereyesruponyou -> RE: Submission vs. masochim/fetishism and the vanilla partner (3/30/2007 3:10:02 PM)

What are you really looking for dave? Permission to leave and feel justified? to stay and feel sorry for yourself? Just a forum to get your thoughts out and organized? Not really sure how to respond here, or is this all rhetorical?




petdave -> RE: Submission vs. masochim/fetishism and the vanilla partner (3/30/2007 3:25:12 PM)

An answer that i haven't thought of yet that will solve all my problems, of course! [&:] Maybe experienced wisdom. A fair amount of just venting. i suppose reproach if that all i've earned. What else?

...dave




missturbation -> RE: Submission vs. masochim/fetishism and the vanilla partner (3/30/2007 4:42:54 PM)

Dave, with respect you longed for someone to be cruel to you and she is being. You dont like it, well you are entitled to change your mind. You know what you should do and that is leave and start again on your own. Lick your wounds, take shelter in your friends, cry, whinge but please do not sit there and think there is an answer that you are going to like because there isn't.




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