Invasion Strategy and Results

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NorthernGent -> Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 6:49:01 AM)
British Army Captain on strategy and results from first hand knowledge: “All those people whose homes have been destroyed and sons killed or who have had to flee are going to turn against the British,” he said. “It’s a pretty clear equation — if people are losing homes and poppy fields, they will go and fight. I would. We’ve been grotesquely clumsy — we’ve said we’ll be different to the Americans who were bombing villages, then behaved exactly like them. To my mind we’ve lost the hearts and minds before we’ve even begun.” http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article634040.ece But as the United States leads the call for more NATO troops and firepower, critics counter that the Bush administration's overemphasis on military spending versus reconstruction aid has hamstrung efforts to win hearts and minds. By some estimates, military operations have cost US$82.5 billion since 2002, compared with $7.3 billion spent on development - a 900% disparity. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HL02Df05.html American warplanes dropped two 2,000lb bombs on the house in Kapisa province, just north of Kabul, hours after an attack on a nearby US base. The apparent mistake came a day after American Special Forces opened fire on civilians on a busy road in eastern Afghanistan, killing up to 10 and wounding many more. The mounting death toll is causing an uproar in a country that has suffered many civilian casualties since US-led forces toppled the Taliban in 2001. Last December President Hamid Karzai wept as he pleaded with western troops to avoid unnecessary deaths. Reporters at the scene of the Kapisa bombing said the bombs had pulverised the main house in a compound of five buildings. Gulam Nabi, a relative of the victims, said four children aged between six months and five years had been killed. The US military said it had fired on the house because two men who had just fired a rocket on the US-run Nato base were seen running into the compound. http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,,2027416,00.html Two international think-tanks published reports yesterday highlighting failures of US and UK policy in Afghanistan, and warned the security situation in the country was deteriorating. The Senlis Council claimed that the campaign by British forces against the Taliban had inflicted lawlessness, misery and starvation on the Afghan people. Thousands of villagers fleeing the fighting and a continuing drought, as well as farmers who have lost their livelihood with the eradication of the opium crop, were suffering dreadful conditions in refugee camps. In a separate intervention, the influential International Institute of Strategic Studies (IISS) said that a vital opportunity was lost when the West failed to carry out adequate reconstruction work after the 2001 war. http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/article1367185.ece

mnottertail -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 7:14:13 AM)
our future is: we are born as pauper's to a pawn, on a christmas day; when the New York Times and Guardian said, 'And the war's begun'--------- E. John (with apologies)

meatcleaver -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 8:32:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent British Army Captain on strategy and results from first hand knowledge: “All those people whose homes have been destroyed and sons killed or who have had to flee are going to turn against the British,” he said. “It’s a pretty clear equation — if people are losing homes and poppy fields, they will go and fight. I would. We’ve been grotesquely clumsy — we’ve said we’ll be different to the Americans who were bombing villages, then behaved exactly like them. To my mind we’ve lost the hearts and minds before we’ve even begun.” http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article634040.ece Yep. It about sums up the bloody absurdity of it all. A war conceived by politicians who lack intelligence, have little foresight and think bombing and shooting people can replace strategic policies. Bring on Iran, let's have another debacle!

Termyn8or -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 9:35:10 AM)
Ron, I thought that was "and the New York Times said God is dead". Wow. I don't even want to talk about Marzi Doats. T

mnottertail -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 10:19:45 AM)
It is, and I apologized but NG reads the Guardian. Ron

caitlyn -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 10:50:37 AM)
I would imagine many will completely discount this. I remember posting information about several long conversations I had with an American Armored Battalion commander? What he had to say (and I tried to present it without inserting any of my own views, which didn't always agree with his) was completely discounted ... he was too high up on the chain of command ... he was too low on the chain of command ... he is being too critical ... he isn't allowed to be critical. It seems to me, that vast majority of people only listen to our troops, when they say something we agree with.

mnottertail -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 10:56:54 AM)
I remember. Ron

NorthernGent -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 11:53:01 AM)
It's a fair enough point, some may focus on what supports their view. Thing is, there are consistent first hand accounts all pointing to the picture presented in the OP. From where I'm standing, I just can't believe that people refuse to accept the senseless killing (well, not quite senseless if you're the CEO of Bechtel). I have a theory as follows: People refuse to accept that the US government and their corporate allies are cold-blooded killers because it shatters the delusions of the US being the freedom country. Suddenly, the illusion of superiority (fed by the government) would be blown away in one fell swoop - along with the sense of personal stability and grounding afforded by these notions. Not exactly a unique theory, but you'll see I'm getting at personal insecurity acting as a barrier. Suddenly, you'd be on a par with the Communists, and indoctrination tells you that you're a cut above them.

LadyEllen -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 12:07:25 PM)
Where's the confusion? We = good guys They = bad guys So obviously we kill them, and obviously we dont do anything to help them. Trouble being, this is the way they think about us too. Though of course, they being the bad guys totally overrides realising this. E

NorthernGent -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 12:16:08 PM)
Normal service resumed. Can you give me an example of something good "we" have done for "them" that was not a by-product of an ulterior motive?

Real0ne -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 12:32:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent The Senlis Council claimed that the campaign by British forces against the Taliban had inflicted lawlessness, misery and starvation on the Afghan people. West failed to carry out adequate reconstruction work after the 2001 war. sounds just like the way we handled katrina dont it? oh have to insert the proper gov names etc LOL

Real0ne -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 12:42:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent People refuse to accept that the US government and their corporate allies are cold-blooded killers because it shatters the delusions of the US being the freedom country. Suddenly, you'd be on a par with the Communists, and indoctrination tells you that you're a cut above them. traditionally we were bread to think that way. This country was founded on the principles in the constitution, and the very next day after the paperwork was signed they started violating their own great wisdom because it was an inconvenience while spinning and selling those violations as for our own good here. We came to believe based on our paperwork that when read will make anyone feel good about themselves. So now this is entrenched in our society and you are dead on correct! We do not want to look upon ourselves as heartless killers when in fact the truth is the contrary and anyone who disagrees with our delusion is a terrorist and must be irradicated. Let the glass house ego reign supreme Ashcroft at the congressional hearing: To those who scare peace loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this; your tactics only aid terrorists for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. Charges of kangaroo courts and shredding the constitution, give new meaning to the term fog of war. Since lives and liberties depend on clarity, not obsfuscation, upon reason not hyperbole, let me take this opportunity to be clear, my message to america this morning then is this: if you fit this definition of a terrorist fear the united states, you will lose your liberty. Only terrorists talk of lost liberties!!!!! reminds me of the darylics in Dr who! "EXTERMINATE EXTERMINATE EXTERMINATE" LOL oh that is a quote that i typed out so it was word for word as he said it because if you google it you will find virtually no media sources that put it in print word for word!!!

LadyEllen -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 12:56:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent Normal service resumed. Can you give me an example of something good "we" have done for "them" that was not a by-product of an ulterior motive? Hmmmm, no you see youre using thought there to examine the issue, when its really not necessary. We = good guys, which means everything we do is good, arising from good motives and directed at good objectives, which are of course realised good, sorry well. This is all the thought thats required, since its the upper level of thought of our leaders, who are of course good. Are you sure youre not one of them? You sure ask a lot of questions mister. E

caitlyn -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 1:46:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent It's a fair enough point, some may focus on what supports their view. Thing is, there are consistent first hand accounts all pointing to the picture presented in the OP. From where I'm standing, I just can't believe that people refuse to accept the senseless killing (well, not quite senseless if you're the CEO of Bechtel). I have a theory as follows: People refuse to accept that the US government and their corporate allies are cold-blooded killers because it shatters the delusions of the US being the freedom country. Suddenly, the illusion of superiority (fed by the government) would be blown away in one fell swoop - along with the sense of personal stability and grounding afforded by these notions. Not exactly a unique theory, but you'll see I'm getting at personal insecurity acting as a barrier. Suddenly, you'd be on a par with the Communists, and indoctrination tells you that you're a cut above them. I'm going to stay out of the right and wrong of this ... honest answer, I don't think you and I have a complete enough picture to form conclusions that are beyond dispute. I will say though, that I have heard and read an equal number of positions from those serving in, or having served in Iraq, that present a picture completely contrary to what is presented above. That is not to say that I support these position, only to say that they do exist. I've also heard a contrary theory, that the hatred of the United States, is tied to our support and friendship of Israel, and that we do not have the right to meddle in the policy of Middle Eastern countries. Fair enough, but the reverse must be true ... these countries do not then have the right to determine where we lend our support, and who we consider our friends. Again, not to support this theory, only to say that it does exist. REPEATED AS A SimplyMichael DISCLAIMER: Not to support these opinions and theories, only to say that they do exist.

NorthernGent -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 2:21:00 PM)
Caitlyn, it goes without saying that there's no one on this board who has all the info, but conclusions can be formed based on what is available. Based on this available evidence, the evidence is damning. Regardless, in the grand scheme of life, the occupying governments have no business in Iraq. Self-determination is paramount here. I've spent time in the Middle East, it's an anecdote, but one for the collection. Everyone I have met in the UAE and Oman does not hate the US. Yes, they dislike Israel and they dislike the US support for Israel, but it's a different kettle of fish to "hatred of the US". In the time I have spent in the Middle East, this is what I have found. They like a beer - bars are packed with British ex-pats and immigrants from Jordan, the Lebanon, Palestine, Egyptians, Syrians, Moroccans, you name it - just enjoying themselves, no one giving a fuck about government games. You couldn't pick a fight with them, they're so placid. They're good time people: friendly, great food - have you ever eaten at a Lebanese restaurant? something to savour - mountains of fresh food and delicious cakes, love a beer, they actually have a bar in Abu Dhabi called the American Bar mainly frequented by locals - serving Long Island Tea etc, hip hop blasting out, relaxed - no problems. Believe it or not I actually watched the film Munich in a picture house in the UAE and the Arabs laughed along with the Israeli jokes in the film. Now Saudi is a different fish altogether. I have a friend working for British Aerospace out there. I was actually offered a couple of jobs paying £100k plus a week and danger money signing on fee of £5k in the hand - it's that dodgy out there. My mate has been there 3 years and he's been counting the days down since day 1 - he'll come back with about £300k in the bank. Anyway, the first day he got there, they were told to run the traffic lights if they were approached by locals - they were approached by locals with guns and they had to run the lights. He's been sleeping in cupboards and the bath rather than his bed, because they have been told that at any time they could get shot while sleeping. The 3rd day he was there a German was shot dead in his car and there have been numerous murders of Westerners. Basically, the silly fucker is playing russian roulette with his life. The point to all of this is that the people who really are anti-Western are the countries forming allies of the US and British governments. Same with Pakistan. There is no rhyme nor reason to any of this, they're simply attempting to impose Western market values for economic gain.

ferryman777 -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 2:35:07 PM)
Dead on correct. Follow the money....apply that to any situation, and the truth will be revealed...who profits from these agendas. Iraq will call for a rebuilding of the bombed out culture; Haliburton will enter, as will Bectel, and the others; who are the kingpins; what is their relationship to The Bush regime who started this debacle; how does it all effect the US citizen tax base. The North Gent has hit the nail right on the head. Pardon for my interuption, but the smoke cleared a bit from my bong.

NorthernGent -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 3:31:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Ashcroft at the congressional hearing: To those who scare peace loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this; your tactics only aid terrorists for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. Charges of kangaroo courts and shredding the constitution, give new meaning to the term fog of war. Since lives and liberties depend on clarity, not obsfuscation, upon reason not hyperbole, let me take this opportunity to be clear, my message to america this morning then is this: if you fit this definition of a terrorist fear the united states, you will lose your liberty. Only terrorists talk of lost liberties!!!!! reminds me of the darylics in Dr who! "EXTERMINATE EXTERMINATE EXTERMINATE" LOL oh that is a quote that i typed out so it was word for word as he said it because if you google it you will find virtually no media sources that put it in print word for word!!! I think we're in similar positions, Real0ne. Our government doesn't really play the patrotism card, but it does play the Western values card and Islamophobia. One major difference is that Britain has centuries of form for this kind of thing - we're like the people who just can't learn from history. I reckon politics will be interesting in the next 30 years as people begin to understand what is going on.

NorthernGent -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 3:37:53 PM)
What's really disturbing is that most people can see that our government is not doing the right thing, but can't do anything about it. In Britain, we're powerless to impose our will and I imagine the same is true in the US. Revolution ain't an option here - we couldn't do it when 70% of the population were living in crowded slums, so it's not on the cards today.

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 3:47:20 PM)
1) Clearly stated mission. 2) Removal of politicians from the decision making process. 3) Complete ban on news reporting until said mission is accomplished (often news reporting now a days revolves around politics). 4) Evaluation of the process after completion and any breaking of regulations and/or laws dealt with and accountability maintained. These statements are not a validation of the war, just some basics that I think should be used when in fact violence or military force is authorized. 1 and 4 are the most important though. The current administration, ALL of the politcians, and every American citizen has to take responsibility for it all. I may not have voted for any of those that are currently in, but as an American it is my President, Senate and Congress. If I start the accountability with myself, then I can work outward from there. I wish I truly had the knowledge of the ENTIRE situation over there so that I could make a more informed comment, but the fact remains that almost everyone has an agenda and I cannot tell who does or does not have one. Orion

OrionTheWolf -> RE: Invasion Strategy and Results (3/31/2007 3:48:49 PM)
I am not sure how it is there but a revolution here would be easy. I am not talking about violence, I am talking about voting out every incumbant in the House and Senate, regardless of party, and sending a clear message that we no longer will tolerate business as usual politics. Orion quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent What's really disturbing is that most people can see that our government is not doing the right thing, but can't do anything about it. In Britain, we're powerless to impose our will and I imagine the same is true in the US. Revolution ain't an option here - we couldn't do it when 70% of the population were living in crowded slums, so it's not on the cards today.

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