Considering Divorce? (Full Version)

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Samp444 -> Considering Divorce? (4/13/2005 9:55:21 PM)

I have been married almost 20 years to a vanilla spouse. I have two kids. We have a so-so relationship due to other emotional issues. We have two great kids who we both care for. However we rarely have sex and I have now found that sex with BDSM is totally unfullfilling. I told my spouse about my desire for BDSM before our marriage and tried it several times and she was not at all into it. So I gave it up but now I now realize that no BDSM leaves a huge emotional hole in me and it is very hard to balance whether to terminate the marriage at this time over this issue. So days I feel I am being selffish thinking about it and other days I feel life is really passing me by and I should have already made the jump. I do not want to be an adulter. Most days I simply contemplate breaking the news to her. It will not be a total shock to her as the marriage as a whole has been mediocre for the last few years and she know I am kinky in general? I would appreciate any thoughts on how I should approach this issue with her.[8|]



lil1v -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/13/2005 10:23:20 PM)

I too am married vanilla, though issues in my marriage are more than just missing BDSM.

Have you always wanted out since stopping or giving up BDSM? If not, my guess is that there is something else wrong other than just the lack of BDSM and that is magnifying the emptiness which you're associating with the lack of BDSM.

You also have two children. You need to really be sure you've tried everything to keep your relationship healthy. Talk to your wife. Let her know that you're unhappy or unsatisfied, more than likely she feels the same. Maybe together you can find a way to make things work.

If you're set on leaving, you need to let her know.. its only fair. I don't know your relationship, but I'd go in with the assumption that mentioning "divorce" will be a shock to her.

I'd first recommend coming clean with her about your needs and wants and seeing if you two can't find a way to make it work.




FelinePersuasion -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/13/2005 10:46:52 PM)

I have a friend who's married but they don't do anything romantic and they only stay for their disabled child. Perhaps you could have an open relationship where you're still together to keep a family enviroment but discretly you're allowed to see others IF AND ONLY IF the wife APPROVES.


You knew going in she was not kinky and I think it's a rotten thing to do to later want a divorce because you can't get your kink.



onceburned -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 1:18:20 AM)

Samp, it is hard to reduce a marriage to one paragraph. And it is hard to offer advice based on that small information. But I think the advice that the others have suggested is sound.

You didn't say how old your children are. Since you have been married for 20 years and you are 45 years old I am guessing they are in their teens. It really is beneficial to have two parents at home. Dealing with the teen years are hard enough but going alone adds to the stress. (of course, if you have a close knit extended family close by this is lessened)

I would encourage you to try to reach some kind of understanding with your wife. Adultery, as you agree, is a bad idea - it only deepens the hurt. Perhaps the two of you can reach some kind of understanding: an open relationship (shielded from the kids) or even permission for non-sexual BDSM. You might find this latter one less than ideal, but it could be a compromise until your kids are on their own.

If your marriage has been limping along, chances are that your wife knows this. But she decided to remain committed to keeping it going. So if you raise the idea of divorce, it will probably be an unpleasant surprise to her. Just something to keep in mind if you do decide to go that route.

You haven't mentioned marital counselling and would encourage the two of you to consider this. It may not help, but if you can salvage 20 years of marriage and an intact family it might be worth the effort.

Best wishes.



MsMacComb -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 1:59:00 AM)

Talk to her, see a councilor, go to therapy together. If you have exhausted all other options, staying together out of guilt or a sense of "duty" will ony make a house full of miserable people and a very unhealthy one at that.
At the same time, (I mention this to people once in awhile) years down the road when your penis no longer gets hard, you cant find your bi-focals, you cant tell if that ringing is your phone or your hearing aid batteries and you have long since lost any desire for sex, will you miss her? What if after a few "fetish relationships" that may not work out, will you be better off being alone for the rest of your life, or regret leaving her.
Maybe males havea a harder time with some of this as their biology (read penis) makes the sense of urgency seem so intense. Fermales may see it as a long term thing, a matter of priorities, and an evaluation of taking the good with the bad, and the "freaky" with the boring. I dont mean that rudely, I pride myself as being one of the few females that accepts the male sex drive as being part of what makes them male.



Hickory -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 2:54:14 AM)

In another thread, AAkasha nails the issue well.

quote:

I firmly believe that a submissive man trying to get a vanilla wife interested in BDSM is a disaster waiting to happen if they couple does not have good sexual relations already, including both partners having a healthy sexual appetite and take joy in the act.


I think this applies to ANY marriage dynamic.

Counseling can be very productive, if both partners want a change.

Although you may find a "kink friendly" one, you may want to consider a regular one. This needs to be safe for both of you.

To me, if your basement wall is crumbling, you don't hire a carpenter, you hire a mason.

Jack Benny once said of his marriage that in all their years together, he and his wife never considered divorce. Murder, occasionally, but never divorce. That idea has served my wife and me well for 25 years now. (I've lost count of how many times the Grim Reaper and I have come face to face, though. ~smile~)

Good luck.

Hickory



lovingmaster45 -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 3:27:28 AM)

There is not a single longitudinal study which supports the notion that "counseling" or any of the other psychobabble nonsense works.

Do the right thing by the family you have created and stay in the marriage. Make the best of it; then leave as soon as the youngest hits 18. Less emotional damage and you will take a less financial hit when you finally do what is right for YOU.

Been there done it...it hurts and it ruins you financially for 3 years; but you will recover.



OrientalMistress -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 6:00:50 AM)

I think I may have a solution for you... I have mentored and advised couples in similar circumstances for several years now. Please contact Me at [email protected]. The reply I have is much too extensive to put here, and you may wish to IM with Me first.

Miss Deborah, 70yo bi Domme, still quite sexually active
Mentor in the ways of Tantra, Quon Xi, and the Kama Sutra




MistressFire70 -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 7:33:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onceburned

It really is beneficial to have two parents at home. Dealing with the teen years are hard enough but going alone adds to the stress. (of course, if you have a close knit extended family close by this is lessened)



I disagree with this statement. It is not always better for two parents to be present. Kids aren’t stupid; they will figure out something is wrong because of the tension between the parents. And, in most cases, the kids will assume it’s their fault or they will blame one parent over the other. This happened to me. As a young teenager, I was convinced that I wasn’t good enough (an issue, I am realizing, that carries over into today). When I began to see that they weren’t really arguing about me, I began to think it was my mother, who at the time, was a royal bitch. I hated her. I mean HATED her. I used to daydream about killing her (which is also indicative of an early onset of bi-polar). My parents finally got divorced when I went to college. Out from under the influence of my father, my mother became a totally different person. We are now best friends (of course, some of that is me taking charge of my mental health, too). I can’t help but think that if they had divorced earlier where I could have seen my mother’s ‘good” side, I’d have been a LOT better off. I’d still have the whole “not good enough” issue, but I’d have had my mother’s loving support through my teens.

So, as long as you sit and talk to your kids about what’s happening (they don’t need to know the sex details, only that you and their mother have grown apart), they can handle it. Don’t just leave without an explanation and don’t rely on their mother to explain it for you. Make sure you’re involved in their lives always. Make sure they’re provided for, just as you would if you we there. You can still give loving support, even if you’re not living with them. Call them every day and talk. If you work at it, I’m betting that you’ll get to know them a lot better than you do now.

My two cents,

Fire



Samp444 -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 11:48:52 AM)

I just want to thank you all for your thoughtful responses. They have been really helpful to me.



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 12:08:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hickory
Jack Benny once said of his marriage that in all their years together, he and his wife never considered divorce. Murder, occasionally, but never divorce. That idea has served my wife and me well for 25 years now. Good luck.
Hickory

This is funny from a stand up comedian, but it's not funny in a real marriage with real problems, given the the fact that people use the words "if I can't have you, no one else can" and indeed many follow through on that promise of killing their partners.
With all due respect to my friend Chris (Onceburned), I disagree that two parents who are not at least good/loving friends to one another (you can be loving/kind to one another without getting your freak on) should stay in one house for the sake of children; I've seen children hating parents (as MistressFire pointed out), and it isn't pretty; it's something that if my offspring did to me, there may only be one of us left in jail.

I think maybe seeking some kink friendly counseling and working on your friendship with wife might help your situation... If it doesn't, I love the divorce option, because having one life to live, for me means I don't stay in voluntary jail.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 1:13:06 PM)

quote:

However we rarely have sex and I have now found that sex with BDSM is totally unfullfilling.


Samp444,

Your apprehension to even address the problem is evident. I take it you meant to say that; "...sex withOUT (ed) BDSM is totally unfulfilling." I remember being where you are, inclusive of the 2 children. Although I never got my 20 year badge. Just because this memory goes through my mind every time I think of marriage and anniversaries, I'll tell you what I said to someone "congratulating" me on my 15th. "Gee - Thanks, If I would have killed her instead 15 years ago, I'd be out of prison by now. A happy, free man today!" Not quite up to Jack Benny, and obviously offensive to BTF (I'll expect rebuff.) But considering I said it to my ex-father in law who told me I was making a mistake when the marriage idea first came up - It was funny!

SORRY TO DIGRESS

In my case there was a traumatic interjection to my life. As bad as it was it resulted in a total reassessment of priorities. As the time it was the worst time of my life, but decisions made then, make this the BEST time of my life.

You have to look at yourself and determine if you are happy, or even have a chance of happiness. If you're miserable now in 10 years you won't mellow. You'll just be older and more miserable.

The hard part is going through a personal honest analysis of your feelings. If it's a whim - FORGET IT! If it's in your core, if it's a large part of who you are then the decision is obvious. Regarding the children? They are more attuned to what happening than you realize. If they are happy and well adjusted your divorce won't be as traumatic as you think. Depending on how much tension there is currently in the household they may even be relieved not to have to experience it daily.

Counselors? Therapists? Do you or your wife have any diseases that needs "curing"? You've already been honest and approached your wife. I'm sure it was a difficult thing to do. If you discussed and expressed exactly what you feel, exactly what your desires are, and you are at an impasse; what will a counselor or therapist suggest? Most likely, you're a "sick individual" and need 10 years of therapy to determine the root of your sick desires. At the "kink-aware" they will try to get your wife to "play along" (gee-what fun that would be, a resentful woman, playing the domme!) Or when that fails he'll write you a prescription to a surrogate a/k/a "Pro Domme".

quote:

I do not want to be an adulterer.


That is an admirable goal! KEEP IT! I'm one of those really weird people who believe that mental adultery is a worse crime then the physical. If your wife or partner was there happily participating it's different. But waving bye-bye to her as you head out of the house to visit your prescribed Mistress isn't quite the same thing. Besides it appears in your short description, that you want a deeper relationship then going to a "Pro".

Good Luck! I hope you find what you are looking for. Be strong!



BlkTallFullfig -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 1:34:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
I said to someone "congratulating" me on my 15th. "Gee - Thanks, If I would have killed her instead 15 years ago, I'd be out of prison by now. A happy, free man today!" Not quite up to Jack Benny, and obviously offensive to BTF (I'll expect rebuff.) But considering I said it to my ex-father in law who told me I was mading a mistake when the marriage idea first came up - It was funny!

[sm=lol.gif]Very Funny Merc...
I'm okay with the thought, I've had it myself once or twice, lol.
I only meant that the OP should be strong in his resolve to live his life as best as possible, and not be derailed by the ugliness of divorce and possibility of paying child support.
On the other hand, I would never advise divorce lightly, and if the case is his biological cock/oops clock, than he should stop, think with his head up top, consider the potential harm to himself and kids before deciding on divorce. M



Samp444 -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 1:38:33 PM)

Your ar correct there is a typo in my post it should be sex without BDSM is not fufilling. My priority are my kids as I have to be careful because I would not want to do anything to hurt them. Your comment on Mental adultery is really good, my goal is to find something lasting not fleeting. Thank you very much for you encouragement and support.



srahfox -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 1:58:37 PM)

I think you should try, really try to see if there is a way to fix your marriage. See if there is a way that the both of you can at least be content. But if there isn't (And there may not be) you should get a divorce. Staying together for the children... I have never thought was a good idea. I come from a divorced family, and yes, it was hard, but it would have been much worse if they had stayed together. Your kids know, if they don't now they will soon. You aren't suddenly going to be happy or okay with the way things are going it's only going to get worse. It would be nice if all families could stay together happily but sometimes that's not possible. At least they are old enough now that you can talk to your children. I have to agree that mental adultary is a terrible thing to do, and think about how likely that might become. If you are with someone on the side who does give you what you want and is fulfilling that need in you, you'll come to be very close to them. I think divorce would be a kinder thing to do to your wife than later having to tell her (Or having her find out) that you cheated on her. (Physically or emotionaly) IMHO. If you do look to a therapist try to find a kink friendly one, I think otherwise you might end up being told what you want is Wrong.



FelinePersuasion -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 3:17:05 PM)

If every one did what loving master was perposing how in the hell could you trust any one you ever married. how do you know the guy's not just gonna tire of the new woman and divorce her for something else he feels he needs. It's like if a bf dumps his current gf for a new gf because model a girlfriend became less glamorous or had a "glitch" how can he ever be trustable again. What's to stop him from trading in gf c for a new fresher update.
People make their own beds to lie in, if he knew his wife wasn't kinky and he hoped it'd be all ok anyway he made his bed. He further made it by having kids and adding that lifetime responcibility in the equasion.


Counsoling does work it's not "nonsense as "lovingmaster" suggests. I've been through it. Course maybe it's diffrent for survivors of child abuse then for marriage.

The whole point of it is to talk out issues discover what could be causing the problems if it's more underlying than the obvious, and work on it. Of course the key word is WORK ON IT. Nothing will work if nobody is willing to invest time and effort and the work



lil1v -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 3:46:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingmaster45

There is not a single longitudinal study which supports the notion that "counseling" or any of the other psychobabble nonsense works.

Do the right thing by the family you have created and stay in the marriage. Make the best of it; then leave as soon as the youngest hits 18. Less emotional damage and you will take a less financial hit when you finally do what is right for YOU.

Been there done it...it hurts and it ruins you financially for 3 years; but you will recover.


Ugh.. this whole post just hits me the wrong way.

First off... "counceling" and psychobabble.. while some of the stupid "Dr. Phil" crap doesn't wash with me.. I do think that sometimes, especially in heated conversations where there is a lot of emotional crap going on, there can also be a lot of "not listening" done by both parties. Sometimes its advisable to have a third party there to act as a mediator. A good councelor won't send you home with "bonding activities" or warm little fuzzy homework, but will help the couple get down to what is really the truth in the situation (as many couples aren't aware of where things went wrong or of where their communication failures are). Once the major/minor problem(s) are found, its much easier to find the RIGHT solution whether it be work it out or break up.

I agree that he should do the right thing by the family.. But what is that right thing?

As a child of a home where my parents fought like cats and dogs when they thought we weren't listening.. or sometimes when they just couldn't hold it back any longer.. I'm a HUGE advocate for a loving divorce (you know, where its more loving to leave, than stay and kill each other and everyone else). I prayed often that they would just divorce and get it over with. They didn't and still haven't, though they seem to get along better now that us kids are out of the house. *shrugs*

The only time I see the need to "stick it out" is if the other person isn't an adult. AKA would aim to make things as hard as possible on everyone and doesn't have whats best for everyone in mind. A friend of mine should by all means divorce his wife, but he won't. He's left for two weeks once with the idea to get a divorce, when he went to visit his kids, his wife had both his children convinced that their father didn't love them anymore and it was THEIR fault. She didn't try to help the children, instead did everything she could to make the children hate their father and feel unloved. He went back to her as he was sure he wouldn't get custody and didn't want his children to live like that. To this day (5 yrs later), when him and her fight and he leaves to take a breather for a few hours, when he gets back his wife has the children convinced he's never coming back and it is all the kids fault. (btw she is one of the few people on my "hit list" should murder ever become legal for a day)

People need to do what would make them happy, but not on a whim when others are involved. He seriously needs to think about the consequences of his actions before he does it. Is he certain it can't be fixed? If not, find out. He definately shouldn't leave and upset everyone and everything just to find out he really wanted to stay.

But thats just my thoughts.



AAkasha -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 3:47:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Samp444

I have been married almost 20 years to a vanilla spouse. I have two kids. We have a so-so relationship due to other emotional issues. We have two great kids who we both care for. However we rarely have sex and I have now found that sex with BDSM is totally unfullfilling. I told my spouse about my desire for BDSM before our marriage and tried it several times and she was not at all into it. So I gave it up but now I now realize that no BDSM leaves a huge emotional hole in me and it is very hard to balance whether to terminate the marriage at this time over this issue. So days I feel I am being selffish thinking about it and other days I feel life is really passing me by and I should have already made the jump. I do not want to be an adulter. Most days I simply contemplate breaking the news to her. It will not be a total shock to her as the marriage as a whole has been mediocre for the last few years and she know I am kinky in general? I would appreciate any thoughts on how I should approach this issue with her.[8|]


Without knowing more about the dynamic of the relationship, it's hard to suggest a path to take. I think the most important thing to consider is whether or not the relationship as a whole is ok with the only exception being the mismatched sexual desires. If that's the case, I think it would be unfair to all to not try at least come to some sort of compromise in the bedroom.

The key word is "compromise." First you need to erase all your wive's prejudices and resentments (she's probably got those) about kinks and rebuild her perception about what it is -- which means making it approachable and ultimately enjoyable. If you are both still in love with each other (that's the main thing), she will have an interest in making you happy; that's what people who are in love do.

If you are in love with her still, you will have an interest in compromising your desires and meeting in the middle. A problem I have seen some kinky men have is not that they have "kinky desires" it's :

a. how often they want it
b. how extreme they want it

A vanilla woman is far more likely to "give it a try" if you propose integrating some light kink (to start) a couple of times a week and then perhaps grow if she's enjoying it. No vanilla woman wants her entire sex life to be a 3ring circus. The fact that you say "Sex without bdsm is unfulfilling" is a big warning bell. You may as well tell your wife, "You cannot sexually satisfy me unless you change for me." That's a big intimidation for a woman. She doesn't want to be swallowed up into this kinky world and have to be someone she is not just to please you. You have to compromise on this.

The other part is the "how extreme" -- Are you only going to be happy if you are out of the gate with 'whips and chains' or are you willing to slow down a little to see if she can find something she enjoys about it?

The other question is one you have to seriously ask yourself: Do you need to be kinky with you wife to be happy, or do you need to be kinky with SOMEONE OTHER THAN YOUR WIFE to be happy. Some husbands confess after time that it isn't that they haven't tried hard enough to get their wife to play...it's really that they don't want them, they'd rather have another partner for that.

If you know this to be true, you have to see if your wife is ok with you having partners outside of the relationship as long as you follow the agreed boundaries with her. The trouble is, you seem to indicate that it's a sex-based problem, and if you mean actual-intercourse with another woman this might be a harder sell than having an online, phone other relationship with another woman that can not include sexual intercourse.

Akasha



Rapier -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 6:27:33 PM)

Samp444,

I was compelled to post a response because a few years ago I was in the same position you are in now. The hardest choices are not between right and wrong but between two options that appear right. The advantage you have is the collective wisdom of those that already posted a reply. I’m sure more will follow.

You probably realize that the stress this dilemma causes can color your judgment. I remember some pretty dark moments. You owe it to yourself and your family to explore every possible option before making a final decision. Don’t give up on communicating with your wife; she may surprise you yet. Try some counseling that might help you see your situation clearly and in context, alone or with your wife. But be absolutely certain that the emotional hole you described is indeed caused by the lack of BDSM because that understanding will help you build whatever comes next for you. It’s one of those times when you’ll have to dig deep for strength.

Others can correct me, but consider also that if you do divorce and it is not amicable, your kink could be grounds for keeping you away from the children.

If it’s any help, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Best of luck,

Rapier



AAkasha -> RE: Considering Divorce? (4/14/2005 7:05:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapier

Samp444,

I was compelled to post a response because a few years ago I was in the same position you are in now. The hardest choices are not between right and wrong but between two options that appear right. The advantage you have is the collective wisdom of those that already posted a reply. I’m sure more will follow.

You probably realize that the stress this dilemma causes can color your judgment. I remember some pretty dark moments. You owe it to yourself and your family to explore every possible option before making a final decision. Don’t give up on communicating with your wife; she may surprise you yet. Try some counseling that might help you see your situation clearly and in context, alone or with your wife. But be absolutely certain that the emotional hole you described is indeed caused by the lack of BDSM because that understanding will help you build whatever comes next for you. It’s one of those times when you’ll have to dig deep for strength.

Others can correct me, but consider also that if you do divorce and it is not amicable, your kink could be grounds for keeping you away from the children.

If it’s any help, there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Best of luck,

Rapier



Yes, another good point.

And, also something to consider along the "grass is always greener on the other side" line of thinking -- Just because you get divorced does not mean you are going to get your BDSM desires fulfilled. The only guarantee you do have will be that you are *alone*. You may never find the perfect kinky partner to replace your formerly vanilla partner (one you loved enough to marry and have kids with).

Look at how many single kinky men there are out there trying to find partners for relationships. You may be somewhat assured you can have some "kinky experiences" once you are single, but you may never fall in love again, or your relationships may be sorely lacking in all the other areas of your life that you have been fortunate to have in the 20 years of your marriage.

Akasha



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