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RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:52:58 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Here's my 2 cents worth.  First glacier behavior is localised.  So comparing the Artic and Antartic is pretty useless.  Here in Alaska we have rapidly shrinking glaciers within 30 miles of rapidly growing ones. Every glacier in existance is melting on the edges, even when they are growing.  They always have been.  There is always water running out of them, even in the winter. 
Also Glaciers have been melting for a long damn time.  For instance when the Pyramids were built there were Glaciers in north Africa (and other mountains across the continent, and the North Coast was lush.  Now the only one left was Killimanjaro, which is now basically gone.  There are underwater Bronze age and older cities being found all over the globe.  The oceans have risen over 70 ft since man started building cities( which was yesterday geologically).  We evolved in the tail of a mini Ice age, with in the context of an ending of a major ice age(technically we are still in an ice age, just an interglacial period).  And there was a known c250 year cold snap(caused by a volcano in Indonesia, early American colonists experienced what they called a year with no summer) that ended right around the time the that the Data says the temps started shooting up.  That it will keep getting warmer(long term) is as sure a bet that the sun will appear to rise tomorow, if every human died of a superflu tomorow it still would.

So we do have to deal with it, but the question is how.  That the scientists support Kyoto to me is an example that they do not consider it a huge problem.  If they really thought it was, they would not support a document like Kyoto which by exempting large parts of the globe, garuntees that CO2 will continue to go up.  Also if they cared about CO2 impact, Carbon capture would also be factored into the equation.  We can easily see the political and economic motivations of those who support Kyoto, but its hard to see how Kyoto would actually effect Global CO2 output, except by increasing it.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 9:59:12 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

FACT: No one has an accurate model, which permits the drawing of meaningful conclusions EITHER WAY about the topic.

FACT: Everything else anyone has to say about the topic is bullshit.

As an aside to the deniers, WHAT is your contingency plan, in the event you are incorrect? Are you putting together the infrastructure to evacuate the planet? Why not?

Seems to me like the ONLY reasonable position is: "WE NEED TO FIGURE OUT WTF IS GOING ON"....


FB,

I agree with your statements exactly.

"My" continegncy plan is for more study, and to start taking low impact actions that would also give other benefits, even if "global warming as the apocalypse" turns out not to be true.

Not massively governmental (and UN) mandated changes that turn over massive influence and control of my life to more bureaucrats.

FirmKY


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 10:04:14 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Yeah, well the problem with speculation is that it's just speculation that it's NOT happening as well.

The Deniers are just as wrong as the Proponents.


Proving a negative is a logical error, FB.

Such as .... prove me wrong that aliens have taken over the CollarMe forums, in order to experiment with the minds of posters.  Some of the posters are actually aliens from Arcturus, which is why they act so irrational and contrary. 

FirmKY


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 10:13:18 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I will only state this one more time to you, I find you rude and obnoxious and I will not engage you in any form of debate... so ask as many questions as you like, but I will not debate you. Your lack of respect for not only me, but others that post here appalls me.


You find me "rude and obnoxious" because I challenge you, and expose your hypocrisy and agenda.

It's not you I lack respect for.  It's the way you attempt to twist facts to fit your preconceived notions and make personal attacks that you then try to claim aren't attacks.

If you didn't want to engage me - then don't.  It's simple.  Instead you play games with "FR" and "some people" in an attempt to be able to claim you "aren't talking" to me.

Very transparent, and pretty revealing about how you think.

Check out the "block button".  Feel free to use it at any time.

FirmKY


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(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 10:17:29 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		You do not tell me what to do, nor how to post

Please make a note of this

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Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 10:22:52 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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You are simply hilarious.

FirmKY


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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 10:25:44 AM   
ModeratorEleven


Posts: 2007
Joined: 8/14/2005
Status: offline 		Children, please.

XI

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This mod goes to eleven.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 10:31:13 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

As an aside to the deniers, WHAT is your contingency plan, in the event you are incorrect? Are you putting together the infrastructure to evacuate the planet? Why not?


What is your contingency plan if it doesn't occur? Oh yeah - that's right - you have good INTENTIONS; absolving your side of any consequential outcome. Damn - this is getting more faith based by the day. Where's your "Vatican City"? Seattle?

At least the religion of global warming has learned from the mistakes of past religions and cults. They don't set deadlines for their doomsday. Whether it was Marshall Herif Applewhite going to ride with his Heaven's Gate followers on Hale-Bopp, or Jim Jones, their mistake was setting a date.

Maybe its as foolish as those who laughed and partied while Noah built the ark his backyard, but from my vantage point and in reading opposing views identifying just as much scientific evidence on the other side of the debate; no planning is necessary.

However, here's a list of 29 other "end of the world" cults that don't have as famous a Messiah as does "global warming". http://www.holysmoke.org/hs02/worldend.htm 

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 10:44:28 AM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		I guess it is fair to say, Thompson, that I approve of much less government encroachment on my life than you do. 

I'll give you a few examples of things I am or have been opposed to:

1) reading the conversations people have in their homes by the way their window glass is vibrating;

2) using a cellular telephone that is turned off to eavesdrop on conversations;

3) estate taxes (after all, your parents paid taxes on what they bought to comprise their estate already, didn't they?);

4) using EZ Pass records to tell where a certain motorist has been driving;

5) seat belt laws (the day it was announced that failure to wear a seat belt would only be a secondary offense and a motorist could not be stopped for that offense alone, I knew that wasn't going to last and, indeed, a few short years later it became a primary offense that could allow a cop into your car to look around);

I could go on for the rest of the day and on into tomorrow.  All of the examples you mentioned of government encroachment ignore what I'm talking about; monitoring people's behavior because of new technologies that reduce the sphere of your privacy.  Oh, except for estate taxes, that is just a confiscation of property.

And...no...I'm not a member of some State's home grown militia either.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 10:54:01 AM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		Fargelbargel, I am a skeptic on the subject of man created global warming.  I'm much more certain about man contributing to it but that's beside the point.  People want to point to the human race, and particularly their country, as the villans ultimately responsible.  What is my contingency plan?  I don't have one.  I don't NEED one.  I'm not too far from NYC and most of us in this area will probably expire due to a rash of dirty bomb attacks after the Democrats win in '08.

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 11:02:19 AM   
SirDiscipliner69


Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
I'm not too far from NYC and most of us in this area will probably expire due to a rash of dirty bomb attacks after the Democrats win in '08.

As opposed to before?

So is nuclear testing contributing to plobal warming?

Is removing the oil that acts as a natural lubercant between the earth's plates causing the earthquakes?

So with these earthquakes at sea there are a lot more deadly Tsunami right?

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©


(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 11:11:35 AM   
FirmhandKY


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Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDiscipliner69

Is removing the oil that acts as a natural lubercant between the earth's plates causing the earthquakes?

So with these earthquakes at sea there are a lot more deadly Tsunami right?


uh ... you have any ... I repeat ... ANY ... proof to this claim?

FirmKY


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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 11:55:16 AM   
Sinergy


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Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		 

The most amusing thing to me is when one encounters a mind filled with such definite certainty that Saddam Hussein had WMD and must be invaded yesterday because of the level of threat he presented to everybody.

Yet this same mind is capable of not seeing the forest for the trees as far as the threat of global warming is concerned.

Dont worry, FirmKY, Kentucky is high enough above sea level to not be flooded when the two largest ice masses on the planet melt and displace over a billion people.

Sinergy

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(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 11:57:50 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I will only state this one more time to you, I find you rude and obnoxious and I will not engage you in any form of debate... so ask as many questions as you like, but I will not debate you. Your lack of respect for not only me, but others that post here appalls me.

juliaoceana:
The world has many rude and obnoxious people...so what.  Either get a thicker skin or find the block button.
thompson

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 12:01:07 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDiscipliner69

Is removing the oil that acts as a natural lubercant between the earth's plates causing the earthquakes?

So with these earthquakes at sea there are a lot more deadly Tsunami right?


uh ... you have any ... I repeat ... ANY ... proof to this claim?

FirmKY



Not sure about oil causing earthquakes, but this article is one I could easily find that was first printed in the Wall Street Journal.

http://www.climateark.org/shared/reader/welcome.aspx?linkID=57283

I am trying to find the one from last year in Scientific American.  Seems there is a similarity between a tectonic plate and a playground teeter-tooter.  Melt a big mass on one side, and the other side goes down.  Put a whole bunch of plates together in a fluid system, and who knows what will happen.

Cool your jets, FirmKY, it is only theoretical science, as opposed to the proof that Saddam had WMDs.

Sinergy



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 12:17:56 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I guess it is fair to say, Thompson, that I approve of much less government encroachment on my life than you do.

I'll give you a few examples of things I am or have been opposed to:

1) reading the conversations people have in their homes by the way their window glass is vibrating;


Total Surveillance of ALL Internet Traffic via taps on the backbone at the major providers ( e.g. AT&T )

quote:


2) using a cellular telephone that is turned off to eavesdrop on conversations;


Don't forget about the GPS beacon, too.

quote:


3) estate taxes (after all, your parents paid taxes on what they bought to comprise their estate already, didn't they?);


I'm iffy about that. In THEORY Estate Taxes work to destroy the Heridtary Upper Class. In THEORY.

In practice? Not so much.

quote:


4) using EZ Pass records to tell where a certain motorist has been driving;


If you don't have an ez-pass, they'll just use the video camera footage of you passing through the toll booth, anyway.


_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 12:40:50 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

I guess it is fair to say, Thompson, that I approve of much less government encroachment on my life than you do. 
I am unsure just as to how you came to that conclusion>

I'll give you a few examples of things I am or have been opposed to:

1) reading the conversations people have in their homes by the way their window glass is vibrating;
Without a warant this is unconstitutional.

2) using a cellular telephone that is turned off to eavesdrop on conversations;
Without a warant this is unconstitutional.

3) estate taxes (after all, your parents paid taxes on what they bought to comprise their estate already, didn't they?);
This is quite easy to avoid via the mechanism of a family trust.

4) using EZ Pass records to tell where a certain motorist has been driving;
Easy to avoid ...simply don't use their tracking devices.

5) seat belt laws (the day it was announced that failure to wear a seat belt would only be a secondary offense and a motorist could not be stopped for that offense alone, I knew that wasn't going to last and, indeed, a few short years later it became a primary offense that could allow a cop into your car to look around);
The authority for a cop to search your car does not come from the seat belt law but from a supreme court decision which also allows a cop to pat you down if you are stopped

I could go on for the rest of the day and on into tomorrow.  All of the examples you mentioned of government encroachment ignore what I'm talking about; monitoring people's behavior because of new technologies that reduce the sphere of your privacy. 
It would appear that you and I have the same dog in this particular fight.
thompson

Oh, except for estate taxes, that is just a confiscation of property.

And...no...I'm not a member of some State's home grown militia either.

(in reply to lockedaway)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 12:58:55 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		FirmhandKy said
"You find me "rude and obnoxious" because I challenge you, and expose your hypocrisy and agenda. "
------------------------------------------------------------------
FirmhandKy.
No she says that because you are...but many of us recognize it as just part of your style and don't pay it much mind,
I find it interesting that in one post you mention that science rightfully deals in probability  and in another post you call a scientist who expresses probability as using weasel words.
To my knowledge science has always expressed the mindset that this is their best guess or  understanding of any particular phenominea and that when a beter model is developed to explain it then that model is adopted.  Religion on the other hand speaks to absolutes and unchanging imutable truths such as a non heliocentric solar system.  How long and how convoluted was the religious doctrin that explained the movement of the heavenly bodies verifying the earth as the center of this solar system. 
So also is the convoluted logic of those who would say that man has no significant impact on the natural functions of the earth.  We need look no farther than the impact of DDT; once proported to be quite benign and pimped by the chemical companies who benifited economically by its widespread use.  They  denied that it had any deliterious effects on the ecostructure, in much the same way that the tobacco companies said that no causal link existed between their product and a host of medical problems.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 4/4/2007 1:07:37 PM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 2:03:36 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

The most amusing thing to me is when one encounters a mind filled with such definite certainty that Saddam Hussein had WMD and must be invaded yesterday because of the level of threat he presented to everybody.

Yet this same mind is capable of not seeing the forest for the trees as far as the threat of global warming is concerned.


Well, Sinergy, interesting analogy.

It seems to me that we had more proof, and less uncertainty about Iraqi's WMD than we do about global warming.  There was a lot of "consensus" going around then, wasn't there?

For WMD's you won't accept that level of consensus and certainty, but for global warming, you accept a lot less certainty and then defend it with claims of consensus.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Dont worry, FirmKY, Kentucky is high enough above sea level to not be flooded when the two largest ice masses on the planet melt and displace over a billion people.


Hey, I figured out decades ago that where I live now will work fine for either global warming, or global cooling.

The "new" Gulf of Mexico would likely come right up to my doorstep in either case.  That's one reason I keep mentioning "new beachfront property". 

Global warming will increase the value of my lands. 

FirmKY


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: "Scientists: Antarctic ice sheet thinning" - 4/4/2007 2:11:58 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Not sure about oil causing earthquakes, but this article is one I could easily find that was first printed in the Wall Street Journal.

http://www.climateark.org/shared/reader/welcome.aspx?linkID=57283

I am trying to find the one from last year in Scientific American.  Seems there is a similarity between a tectonic plate and a playground teeter-tooter.  Melt a big mass on one side, and the other side goes down.  Put a whole bunch of plates together in a fluid system, and who knows what will happen.


Interesting article.  I'm familar with the changes in plates based on the rise and fall of glaciers, and have seen discussions about possible oils effects, but have never seen anything solid on the theory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Cool your jets, FirmKY, it is only theoretical science, as opposed to the proof that Saddam had WMDs.


Unnecessarily snarky.  See my comments in my last post.

FirmKY

_____________________________

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(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 60
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