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Lessons from history, Nicaragua..... - 4/3/2007 11:38:32 AM

NorthernGent

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The US government's involvement in Nicaragua, 1980s:

1) The US Office of Public Diplomacy was set up which disseminated what was called 'white propaganda'. It produced dossiers and fed stories to journalists that "proved" that Soviet fighter planes had arrived in Nicaragua to attack the US. Another story from intelligence sources said that the Soviets had given stockpiles of chemical weapons to the Sandinistas.

2) Reagan appeared on television with maps to show how quickly such a chemical attack could be launched on the US. He said, "The simple questions are: will we support freedom in this hemisphere or not?, will we defend our vital interests in this hemisphere or not?, will we stop the spread of communism in this hemisphere or not? will we act while there is still time"

3) In actual fact, the Sandinistas were a feeble fighting force.

4) Reagan also told the US that Nicaragua was part of an axis of rogue states, including Iran and North Korea, who together ran a global network of terror. Those who ran the Office of Public Dimplomacy called this technique 'Perception Management'. The thinking was that if you can control the perceptions of Americans then you could bring them on board to support a more aggressive policy.

4) Reagan's administration believed that their ideal of freedom (which they were attempting to spread in Latin America) was an absolute. This underpinned their efforts to convince themselves that the means justified the ends - the means being lying, exaggeration and funding organised, violent militia such as the Contras.

5) The US government funded the Contras who used murder, assassination and torture on their opponents.

6) The US government were taken to the International Court of Justice in 1986 and fined $12 billion for subverting Nicaraguan Sovereignty. They refused to pay and withdrew their membership.

It's almost a carbon copy: the propaganda, the lies, the misinformation, funding friendly would-be regimes regardless of their violence, the axis of terror, impeding a nation's sovereignty and the refusal to take notice of international organisations.

This freedom they think they're spreading, it comes at a price - violence, lies, propaganda - everything that is hurled at tyrannical regimes such as the Soviet Union. They're two peas in a pod, in my book.

I appreciate this is roughly the 189th thread concerning Iran and Iraq in the short space of 3 days, but it's worth comparing the situation with Iran and Iraq - the US and British governments are going to attempt to impose their will through tyranny, as per Nicaragua. For anyone who is still unsure of the motives of the two governments, but has an open mind, I would urge you to have a think about what these tyrants are doing in Iran and Iraq.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/3/2007 11:51:45 AM >

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RE: Lessons from history, Nicaragua..... - 4/3/2007 1:30:57 PM

Seatonstomb

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Good news for the world Daniel Ortega (Sandanista) is back in power in Nicaragua. Wonder how long till Junior has a go at him and tries to destabilise another country.

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RE: Lessons from history, Nicaragua..... - 4/3/2007 5:27:26 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seatonstomb

Good news for the world Daniel Ortega (Sandanista) is back in power in Nicaragua. Wonder how long till Junior has a go at him and tries to destabilise another country.

Monkeyboy probably had a specific list of targets lined up in his cross-hairs.

But he missed so badly trying to take out target 1 that the rest of them are safe...

Sinergy

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RE: Lessons from history, Nicaragua..... - 4/3/2007 11:14:14 PM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seatonstomb

Good news for the world Daniel Ortega (Sandanista) is back in power in Nicaragua. Wonder how long till Junior has a go at him and tries to destabilise another country.

Ortega is no where near the same guy he was during the Sandinista revolution. Have you read any of his recent commentary lately.....if I didn't know better I'd say some of his recent positions parallel that of his old arch enemies ; the right wing paramilitary contingent.

- R

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RE: Lessons from history, Nicaragua..... - 4/3/2007 11:49:56 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seatonstomb

Good news for the world Daniel Ortega (Sandanista) is back in power in Nicaragua. Wonder how long till Junior has a go at him and tries to destabilise another country.

The problem is: a nation can't attempt to deny other nations their evolution.

The likes of the Sandinistas: they're a shining example of exactly what happens in second and third world countries where there is huge inequality - the exact same revolutionary ideals as France and Russia - left-wing revolutionaries take up arms and overthrow the establishment - they feel it is the only way to gain equality because the balance is tipped too far away from them. The French, Russians, Algerians, Iranians, Africans etc all came to the same conclusion - genuine freedom and democracy comes at a price - and that price is violence against the establishment and their supporters.

What is the US government going to do? Clamp down on every third world country because they've had enough of the corruption of authoritarian regimes, and then install right-wing militia such as the contras? There are not many people in the West who advocate violence above democracy and that is because we have moved beyond that stage in our evolution, but to try and deny other parts of the world their self-determination is akin to denying freedom. What's worse, they're doing this with exactly the same tactics used by despotic regimes throughout the world - violence, lies, propaganda, intimidation, fear. It's ironic that the US and British governments are using the exact same tactics as they claim to be fighting against.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/3/2007 11:52:48 PM >

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RE: Lessons from history, Nicaragua..... - 4/3/2007 11:59:19 PM

Sinergy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Seatonstomb

Good news for the world Daniel Ortega (Sandanista) is back in power in Nicaragua. Wonder how long till Junior has a go at him and tries to destabilise another country.

The problem is: a nation can't attempt to deny other nations their evolution.

The likes of the Sandinistas: they're a shining example of exactly what happens in second and third world countries where there is huge inequality - the exact same revolutionary ideals as France and Russia - left-wing revolutionaries take up arms and overthrow the establishment - they feel it is the only way to gain equality because the balance is tipped too far away from them. The French, Russians, Algerians, Iranians, Africans etc all came to the same conclusion - genuine freedom and democracy comes at a price - and that price is violence against the establishment and their supporters.

What is the US government going to do? Clamp down on every third world country because they've had enough of the corruption of authoritarian regimes, and then install right-wing militia such as the contras? There are not many people in the West who advocate violence above democracy and that is because we have moved beyond that stage in our evolution, but to try and deny other parts of the world their self-determination is akin to denying freedom. What's worse, they're doing this with exactly the same tactics used by despotic regimes throughout the world - violence, lies, propaganda, intimidation, fear. It's ironic that the US and British governments are using the exact same tactics as they claim to be fighting against.

1984 pointed out that the fundamental raison d' etre for holding power is the maintenance of power.

Despotic regimes are much easier to negotiate with because their leader seeks to maintain their power, and one does not have to get a collective agreement that borrowing money from the World Bank to dam the Amazon is a great idea.

Sinergy

p.s. As an example, the US is a friend of Pakistan which is ruled by a military leader. US is not necessarily a friend of India which has 600+ political parties represented in their parlaiment and no one person they can negotiate with.

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RE: Lessons from history, Nicaragua..... - 4/4/2007 12:19:54 AM

meatcleaver

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This is old Strausian philosophy. I can't understand why it hasn't yet been discredited on the right in the US, as it makes the USA's allies (except Blair who is a religious nut) immediately suspicious of anything they claim. The US right keeps churning out Straus's old ghost, which was already discredited back then in the 80s. Sadly this rightwing effort to keep Americans good Americans is actually swallowed by many Americans that refuse to look at the world from a different view point than the American midwest. We often see the paranoia this Strausian philosophy breeds on these threads.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/4/2007 12:20:42 AM >

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RE: Lessons from history, Nicaragua..... - 4/4/2007 7:25:47 AM

thompsonx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The US government's involvement in Nicaragua, 1980s:

1) The US Office of Public Diplomacy was set up which disseminated what was called 'white propaganda'. It produced dossiers and fed stories to journalists that "proved" that Soviet fighter planes had arrived in Nicaragua to attack the US. Another story from intelligence sources said that the Soviets had given stockpiles of chemical weapons to the Sandinistas.

2) Reagan appeared on television with maps to show how quickly such a chemical attack could be launched on the US. He said, "The simple questions are: will we support freedom in this hemisphere or not?, will we defend our vital interests in this hemisphere or not?, will we stop the spread of communism in this hemisphere or not? will we act while there is still time"

3) In actual fact, the Sandinistas were a feeble fighting force.

4) Reagan also told the US that Nicaragua was part of an axis of rogue states, including Iran and North Korea, who together ran a global network of terror. Those who ran the Office of Public Dimplomacy called this technique 'Perception Management'. The thinking was that if you can control the perceptions of Americans then you could bring them on board to support a more aggressive policy.

4) Reagan's administration believed that their ideal of freedom (which they were attempting to spread in Latin America) was an absolute. This underpinned their efforts to convince themselves that the means justified the ends - the means being lying, exaggeration and funding organised, violent militia such as the Contras.

5) The US government funded the Contras who used murder, assassination and torture on their opponents.

6) The US government were taken to the International Court of Justice in 1986 and fined $12 billion for subverting Nicaraguan Sovereignty. They refused to pay and withdrew their membership.

It's almost a carbon copy: the propaganda, the lies, the misinformation, funding friendly would-be regimes regardless of their violence, the axis of terror, impeding a nation's sovereignty and the refusal to take notice of international organisations.

This freedom they think they're spreading, it comes at a price - violence, lies, propaganda - everything that is hurled at tyrannical regimes such as the Soviet Union. They're two peas in a pod, in my book.

I appreciate this is roughly the 189th thread concerning Iran and Iraq in the short space of 3 days, but it's worth comparing the situation with Iran and Iraq - the US and British governments are going to attempt to impose their will through tyranny, as per Nicaragua. For anyone who is still unsure of the motives of the two governments, but has an open mind, I would urge you to have a think about what these tyrants are doing in Iran and Iraq.

NorthernGent:
When a brain dead grade B has been actor gets up and spews garbage like that out of his mouth and the entire house and senate stand up and clap it can only mean that they are all in cahots with the plan. For anyone at that level of government to be unaware of the true facts is simply not believable.
How many years did Samoza rule Nicaragua? The man was a full colonel in the USMC. As an officer in the marine corps he is required to take orders from the commander and chief. For congress not to know this is simply not believable.
The rhetoric has already started against Hugo Chavez...how long till he has weapons of mass deception and a threat to his neighbors blah blah blah.
thompson

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 4/4/2007 7:45:47 AM >

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RE: Lessons from history, Nicaragua..... - 4/5/2007 4:42:54 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

NorthernGent:
When a brain dead grade B has been actor gets up and spews garbage like that out of his mouth and the entire house and senate stand up and clap it can only mean that they are all in cahots with the plan.

Thompson, they're two-bob blaggards - all this freedom talk - Stalin called it freedom, as did Pol Pot.

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