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subnstudent -> New way to call it (4/4/2007 4:16:12 AM)

So, I was talking with a Dom friend of mine today and I was just thinking that you can't really be forced to do something you want to do. So I thought maybe it's instead that subs enjoy the illusion of being forced to do something; rather than being expected to be totally compliant. Any thoughts on that?



bandit25 -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 4:19:49 AM)

Well, I definitely think so...at least, that's what I've always maintained.  There are things I'll do willingly, things I'll do with some persuasion and things I'll do "under pressure".  And you're right, it's the illusion (for me) of being forced that I like.  Then there are things I'll never do no matter who is on the other end of the flogger/whip/paddle.



LadyIce -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 4:22:11 AM)

You are right, I have always said there is no such thing as "forced", unless it is a crime.
Call it enjoyment or consent, but it is certainly not forced.



IrishMist -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 4:30:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subnstudent

So, I was talking with a Dom friend of mine today and I was just thinking that you can't really be forced to do something you want to do. So I thought maybe it's instead that subs enjoy the illusion of being forced to do something; rather than being expected to be totally compliant. Any thoughts on that?


Well, for some of us, it is not all play and good times [:)] Some of us don't even do play aspects at all; so there is no umm...forcing involved. Some of us do this simply because we LOVE doing for others. Period. End of story.



subnstudent -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 4:33:32 AM)

Oh, I know.. But in terms of playing and when people say they enjoy to be forced to do X, it's not that, they like there being playful resistance and the illusion of being forced.
Least that's how I see it.



IrishMist -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 4:38:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subnstudent

Oh, I know.. But in terms of playing and when people say they enjoy to be forced to do X, it's not that, they like there being playful resistance and the illusion of being forced.
Least that's how I see it.


Once again. For some yes, for others no.

There were times that I absolutly DID NOT want to do something that was requested of me, yet I did them because to refuse meant getting hurt pretty bad :P and in the end, I would end up doing it anyway. In a way, this is being forced, but since I agreed to the terms set forth in the relationship, he had the right to request such things of me. And he had the right to beat me if I refused.

It all depends on how you look at it, and the actual relationship dynamics.



Padriag -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 4:38:39 AM)

In some cases its the illusion of force, but not always.  There are many for whom it isn't about force at all, but about control, service, and other "motivations."  By control I mean that the submissive obeys willingly (is not forced or coerced to obey), but does not control how they serve or when.  For others, the focus is on the service itself, that they are serving and being useful to someone else gives them a sense of satisfaction, of personal worth, etc.  Submissives tend to be a complex and varied group, with a fairly wide range of motivations for their submission.  As a result, that submission itself takes many forms.  That does sometimes include the illusion of being forced to do things.  It also frequently includes a mix of motivations.



IrishMist -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 4:39:58 AM)

/sigh

Padriag said it better than I could.



Padriag -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 4:42:53 AM)

Thank ye kindly [:)]  There's a lot more that probably could be said on why some enjoy the illusion of force, the motivations behind that, etc.  Like most things there are a variety of possibilities.



topcat -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 5:16:58 AM)

As a wise old Dominant once said:
 
"I can make a women do anything she wants me to..."



jauntyone -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 5:22:58 AM)

Greetings
 
Master and I do not do 'play scenes'; everything that happens between us happens because he says it is going to happen. Whether I wish for it or not.
 
I wish you well
 
melissa



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 7:22:59 AM)

Depends on the time.  Lots of people do need to "feel forced" in order to let go of their guilt and worries and sense of responsibility and ownership.  In a way, they need to shed their skin of reality and enter a place free of all the trappings they've loaded onto themselves over time.

But, just as often, the control and authority is completely "real" and there is no illusion whatsoever. 



MasterFireMaam -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 8:10:44 AM)

I agree.

"...no one is ever force fed, within a free-will reality. They are merely tricked into opening their mouth." www.abraham-hicks.com. Some are more willing to be tricked than others...hence illusionists are often seen as magicians.

Master Fire



drawntothedark -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 8:18:04 AM)

I do not know about everyone else, but I personally cannot be forced into doing anything I don't want to do. Justin cannot make me do anything I seriously do not want to do. With certian things I need a bit of a "push" but the reality ,at least for me, is that I would have done them for him anyway. The "push" does relieve guilt I may be having or gives me that extra umph to do a thing that I am fearful of. It's sort of like jumping off the big boulder on the lake for the first time. It's easier if your friends give you that extra push.



AquaticSub -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 8:42:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

As a wise old Dominant once said:
 
"I can make a women do anything she wants me to..."


*Giggle*



toservez -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 8:51:19 AM)

I agree that Padriag wrote the best.

This is consensual non consent so by pure reality there is always an element of a submissive has agreed to do this so therefore force is a total illusion.

For me personally when in a M/s relationship and with the proper guidance and discipline I get into a feeling/mind set that is quite a bit different then when I am single or something lacking in the M/s relationship and my behavior and more importantly what I am willing to do changes dramatically. I am actually drawn to being forced to do things that I find unpleasant and would never ever do by pure choice and left up to me totally. So while the theme of the relationship and my self worth, identity and esteem may not be damaged or fit the overall theme for the pure definition of force to actually be happening to me, I welcome in fact lust in a way when my Master makes me do something, whether mundane ordinary life thing to something kinky, that he knows I will get no pleasure from. To me that is force within this life and for me I am a big fan of it.

I guess I have a fetish for force.



crouchingtigress -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 9:26:18 AM)

well i agree with your assertion about it all being an illusion but i disagree that it should be called some thing different then forced...

so much of this lifestyle is illusion, actually that is the point : to feel like you are caged, to be afraid of the big scary leather outfits, to feel leashed, to feel powerless...the list is truly endless.

the point of the point is to create euphoria for both people...

you see, folks through the ages have noticed that we can artificially trick the brain into dumping our own chemicals of Adrenalin, Serotin, Oxytocin, Endorphins, Vasopressin ,Dopamine,and all sort of other ingredients that create a yummy brain cocktail and that we can get intoxicated....then we learned that sipping it slowly creates a different experience then drinking it fast...and that adding more adrenaline ie: fear creates a different expedience the adding more serotin ..ie;sensation play and on and on...many of us that have taken to this as a lifestyle, have an interest in becomeing the bar tenders of the infinate biochemistry of the brain...and drinking all of its magical elixers...

any way back to the point, we call it forced for a reason, to substantiate the illusion...but we all know that it is all concentual at the core, and that while we may be climbing or belaying the highest scariest peaks we can imagine, we are still always wearing a rope harness....and minimizing the risks as best we can.[;)]






onestandingstill -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 12:19:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: subnstudent

Oh, I know.. But in terms of playing and when people say they enjoy to be forced to do X, it's not that, they like there being playful resistance and the illusion of being forced.
Least that's how I see it.


I agree.
All humans have an inalienable right to make our own choice.

Nothing other than abuse can be forced.

Anything I agree to do even in submission is still a choice I choose to act on for myself or not.
The consent to submit my will in itself to another human is a choice and not something that can be forced.
My desire to please someone may force me to choose things I don't prefer, but it's clearly my choice to choose to submit or to act.
In the end I'm accountable for my actions and choices, not someone who told me to make them or do them as I have the choice to say no.
suzanne



Celeste43 -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 1:33:46 PM)

I think you can be forced. You can be led down a path so that you can't see your way back. You can have your fears used against you, you can be manipulated. There comes a point where you may not even realize you have a choice, or you are given a choice so unpalatable that it is no choice at all.

Would any of us agree first thing, I hope not. But by giving over control you can find yourself being changed from the person you once were if the person you gave the control to is unscrupulous and clever.



Elorin -> RE: New way to call it (4/4/2007 4:25:01 PM)

I find that when I'm told "I like forced feminization" it often means "I like to cross dress but don't like admitting it, so I put the motivation upon the dominant". Same with "forced bisexuality." Not always, but often.

However, I KNOW that I can be forced to do things. Sir's iron will is enough that he will give me two very unpalatable choices. I KNOW he will go through with either one...so I make what is a "choice" but is honestly being forced, through my knowledge of him and his of me, into the choice he already picked out. He can also physically force me to do things.

That he doesn't do this often, and the times he chooses to do this, are what makes our relationship delicious rather than manipulative.

~E



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