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Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 7:47:00 AM

AquaticSub

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I've heard it over and over: "men are superior", "women should have all the power".

It just occurs to me that if you took out the gender and replaced it with any race, you'd suddenly get a much different reaction. Which, to me, equates to it being just about the same thing. I know this isn't limited to just the lifestyle. There are plenty of men who believe that women are weak outside of the lifestyle. I've been just about scared out of the feminist ranks by women chanting about the evils of men and how we would be better off without them. That's fine, I can ignore it.

But it troubles me deeply inside the lifestyle. We face so much outside persecution that, while I am aware we probably won't make some huge family, we shouldn't be dismissing a huge portion of our community as "worthless". Right now we need to be banding together (ok, I'll stop sounding like an unwashed hippie now!

). I can't change that I'm a submissive and neither can my wonderful male sub friends. Like our skin tone, someone is being insulting for something that can't be changed.

So the point of this thread: Does it bother you as much to see these statements, or one insulting submissives of either gender because they submit, as it does to see someone insulted for their race?

Thank you for your time in reading and responding.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

Post #: 1

RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 7:50:33 AM

LuckyAlbatross

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It doesn't bother me as much because I know it's just people operating within what they consider an acceptable framework. The "sub culture" that we are in has TONS of contradictions and acceptable discriminations and double standards. It's all over the place- even sometimes denied!

I worry more about the human social issues of tolerance, not so much on a particular sub cultures ignorance and desire to build their version of utopia.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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(in reply to AquaticSub)

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RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 7:54:31 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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I dont think there is any formal bigotry present as such - its more that people who share similar ideas will tend to come together and produce a kind of apartheid which will preclude certain others from participation in that group on equal basis. If you dont like what a certain group represents in terms of core values and viewpoints, you move on, 'cause sure as anything there'll be another group where you will be comfortable that reflects your own ideas. Its when these groups clash with one another that attitudes get hardened and then there can be bigotry shown for sure.

Try being transgender for a while - just about universally detested!

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 7:56:29 AM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

It doesn't bother me as much because I know it's just people operating within what they consider an acceptable framework. The "sub culture" that we are in has TONS of contradictions and acceptable discriminations and double standards. It's all over the place- even sometimes denied!

I worry more about the human social issues of tolerance, not so much on a particular sub cultures ignorance and desire to build their version of utopia.

Oh LA... you always give me something to think about.

Thanks.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 4

RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 7:56:48 AM

drawntothedark

Posts: 572
Joined: 10/19/2006
From: Arkansas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I've heard it over and over: "men are superior", "women should have all the power".

So the point of this thread: Does it bother you as much to see these statements, or one insulting submissives of either gender because they submit, as it does to see someone insulted for their race?

Yes it bothers me. I have seen it in so many forms. I have been told by a Domme that I am not being true to my sex and that woman should never submit to men. I have been told that all Domme's just need a good man to find that hidden inner slave girl. I have heard that any self respecting man would never submit to anyone let alone a woman. It does get old.

I agree that we do get enough persucution from the outside world. It's sad when we beat each other down for the lifestyle choices. On paper it looks like we would all be very excepting, but the reality is that bigotry is everywhere, even within our "enlightned" community.

I try not to listen to very much of it. I know what I am, and I know what my friends are. I don't need someone elses definations of what they should be to form my own options.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 5

RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 7:57:43 AM

mstrjx

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:: sniffs the air once, twice :: What's that smell? Oh, the unwashed hippie!

There's a parallel thread going on about 'illusion', and I'm ashamed that I didn't want to rock the boat there, so I'll do it here.

'What we do' is about what two (or more) people decide to do for an hour, a week, or the rest of their life. A relationship (couple or more) consists of people who buy into the same philosophy.

I might maintain that EVERYTHING we do is truly that illusion.

For me, I no more believe that male supremacy is better or worse or even different than female supremacy. I believe that in my relationships, I will be with someone who maintains a similar 'illusion' to what I'm interested in at that moment.

If a female (dominant) supremacist meets a male (submissive) who wants to be with her, then he either believes the same thing, or is willing to pretend that he is in order to be with her. That becomes their private conspiracy, albeit with a public 'naming' facade.

I'm beginning to think of power exchanges (or authority transfers or whatnot) as 'equal but not equal' relationships. We (the couple, for instance) want the same sort of structure that is compatible for us, and we can throw whatever percentages we want at it (all the way up to a 'seeming' 100% - 0%), but again that is what that couple elects to do.

Jeff

Edited to add: I don't really think of any of this as outright bigotry, although some could take their 'ideals' too far. I just think its just another way of getting others to look at their way of life as 'interesting'.

< Message edited by mstrjx -- 4/4/2007 7:58:47 AM >

_____________________________

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RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 7:58:48 AM

Devilslilsister

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Newp doesnt bother me in the least. What do i care what others think? If some yokel wants to tell me that women are the scum of the earth.... i might smile and think "no wonder he's not in a relationship OR pitty the girl that ever dates him"

Really? Whats it matter? I'm not fighting for any equality here. I'm not trying to educate any yokels running around. They're.... yokels! (can't educate a yokel)

People are people and they act like people everywhere. i find it impossible to be insulted by a common human problem (i also find it impossible to be insulted by a yokel)

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RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 7:59:29 AM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

:: sniffs the air once, twice :: What's that smell? Oh, the unwashed hippie!

Hey I swear I showered this morning!

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to mstrjx)

Post #: 8

RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 8:01:32 AM

juliaoceania

Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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This used to bother me also. I had a journal entry about it for a long while and then I deleted it because one domme thought I hated all femdoms because I had a rant about female superiority. I do not think she got the true message of my entry... which is that the sexes are different, yet equal in what they bring to the world.

I got over worrying about it because most male and female supremists do not attempt to inflict this belief system on to my reality... so no skin off my nose, right? I think that we should be allowed to have whatever opinions we like as long as they do not intrude on to other people or try to legislate those opinions... opinions threaten me less and less all the time.

Just my thoughts

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 9

RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 8:05:44 AM

AquaticSub

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Joined: 12/27/2005
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It's quite possible (perhaps even probable

) that you are right. Perhaps I'm just suffering a touch of a youthful naivety. Ahh well... I'll get over it! Just as soon as I'm thrust from the safety of college into the real world!

Edited because it sent too soon

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 4/4/2007 8:06:32 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 10

RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 8:09:53 AM

jauntyone

Posts: 543
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Anchorage Alaska
Status: offline

Greetings

I am sorry that such behavior upsets you so much. However, I will admit to being one who does believe that men are superior to women. It's just my own belief and one that I have had for a good many years.

I wish you well

melissa

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 11

RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 8:14:19 AM

Lashra

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I think any form of prejudice is ugly and yes it bothers me when I hear people say one gender or race is better than the other. They are nothing more than misinformed bigots who spew mindless shit just to hear themselves chatter.

~Lashra

_____________________________

“We can never judge the lives of others, because each person knows only their own pain and renunciation. It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 12

RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 8:18:18 AM

toservez

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Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
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In general it is called human nature. I am special but want it to be acknowledged so I seek out like minded people who agree with my views and for the weaker people part of feeding one’s insecurity is also tearing others who differ from you or do not acknowledge their special ness.

Every group including all minorities of color, religion, this life and on and on has bickering and sub sets within their own group a shame of course, but a fact of life. My biggest pet peeve in this life is the intentional and to me even worse the unintentional/indirect actions that cause the perception a person who is submissive is weak, not wise, needing direction, lost, inferior, directionless and dominants are strong, in control naturally, wise, superior, and other strong character words and how people from both genders and roles give these labels so easily to one another.

This message board is a great example of this. Almost everyone here I admire and respect from their words but when you read post after post try concentrating on how people are writing things. The dominant is often “sharing” their wisdom with others on the board giving light to their great philosophy, while the submissive are just exchanging information. The owned submissive too quick to give all the credit to their dominant in all things and the dominants taking all the credit with how they have trained their submissive. Things like this are not bad or wrong in the execution but they underlie these stereotypes even if the people do not agree with them or even recognize this is what is happening.

“No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.” – Eleanor Roosevelt

I think about this quote often when I was involved in the local community and reading message boards. Being submissive and being with your dominant should enhance your life and not fix your life. One’s self value is not given to you by another but what you can offer to yourself, your special someone and the world.

_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 13

RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 8:19:56 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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many buy into a stereotype, decides to develop a prejudice about it, then use that prejudice to discriminate against all who fall into the category of relationship orientation, sexual orientation, natural hair color, natural skin color, etc.

How many whole threads or posts are on this site arguing "preference", but promoting prejudice?

For example, over in the "Let's Talk About Race" or the "Hair Color" thread, the subject of prejudice against redheads comes up. Some report they "love redheads" or that they "just can't get past the red hair--ick"---either side of the spectrum is making a blanket statement about ALL redheads, based on the stereotypes they buy into, or maybe a past experience with one or two redheads, AS IF each and every redhead is representative of the entire redheaded population.

Go ahead and insert into the above paragraph, instead of redheads, "people who weigh more than others think they should", or in the case of MichaelofGeorgia--"any homosexual activity between two MEN", "people who have lighter or darker skin", "female supremicists", ad infinitum.

frequently, the line between preference and prejudice is a fine one that folks in the "lifestyle" cross all the time, without even realizing it, to the offense of many.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 14

RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 8:22:34 AM

MasterFireMaam

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From: Charleston, WV
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Bigotry is an element of society as a whole. We are simply a microcosm of that society. It bothers me here as much as it bothers me elsewhere. I am very turned off by those who want to serve me because I am a "Superior Female" or white.

Master Fire

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The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
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RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 8:35:05 AM

SusanofO

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The people I pay attention to aren't ever the ones who portray submissives as "weak", but as beings complimentary to Dominants in a good and necessary ways. I figure anyone who is operating under the presumption all submissives are congenitally "weak" probably has some personality disorder in operation I don't want to deal with, or is just kinda dim.

As far as actually believing submissives are "weak", as in not capable of being strong mentally or emotionally, while I suppose one can take it on a case by case basis, (re: submissive males or females) anyone with two eyeballs and working brain cells I'd hope would already have surmised that, as a general rule, that just isn't true.

Any more than it would make some (wayward, IMO) males, for instance, more "strong" or more "dominant" because they chose to pound someone into the ground physically, just because they could, and for no other reason.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 4/4/2007 8:40:23 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 8:40:37 AM

dawntreader

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

I might maintain that EVERYTHING we do is truly that illusion.

Jeff

Funny you should say this!! i almost posted these very words on the illusion thread!! LOL! I could go on quite a bit with my thoughts on this but i don't have time or energy today! LOL!

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to mstrjx)

Post #: 17

RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 8:42:16 AM

dawntreader

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Joined: 11/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

frequently, the line between preference and prejudice is a fine one that folks in the "lifestyle" cross all the time, without even realizing it, to the offense of many.

i agree!!!!!!!!!!

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 18

RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 8:51:13 AM

MasterGremlin

Posts: 230
Joined: 12/30/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I've heard it over and over: "men are superior", "women should have all the power".

It just occurs to me that if you took out the gender and replaced it with any race, you'd suddenly get a much different reaction. Which, to me, equates to it being just about the same thing. I know this isn't limited to just the lifestyle. There are plenty of men who believe that women are weak outside of the lifestyle. I've been just about scared out of the feminist ranks by women chanting about the evils of men and how we would be better off without them. That's fine, I can ignore it.

But it troubles me deeply inside the lifestyle. We face so much outside persecution that, while I am aware we probably won't make some huge family, we shouldn't be dismissing a huge portion of our community as "worthless". Right now we need to be banding together (ok, I'll stop sounding like an unwashed hippie now! ). I can't change that I'm a submissive and neither can my wonderful male sub friends. Like our skin tone, someone is being insulting for something that can't be changed.

So the point of this thread: Does it bother you as much to see these statements, or one insulting submissives of either gender because they submit, as it does to see someone insulted for their race?

Thank you for your time in reading and responding.

As someone else pointed out, any form of predjudice is ugly and yes it does "bother" me (I actually get rather angry) when someone insults a sub for submitting simply because of gender.

I think there is a big difference between saying "OK, in O/our relationship Gender X is superior and gender y will always submit" and "All the worlds Gender X are Superior, no exceptions and all the worlds gender y will always submit and those that don't follow my decree are to be distained".

Or, if you like, it is the same as the "Moral Majority" saying that because W/we don't do it in missionary position, in the dark for procreation purposes only that W/we are sick, dimented and evil.

I think that is the difference between choosing what is right for Y/you and bigotry. To me it isn't any different than racism, sexism or any of the multitude of "isms".

Sincerely,
minxy

(in reply to AquaticSub)

Post #: 19

RE: Bigotry in the lifestyle? - 4/4/2007 8:56:16 AM

sambamanslilgirl

Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
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never thought once the BDSM community was an utopian society immuned to the ills and negativity of the society (ie racism, sexism, bigotry, gender bias etc). all of us come from unique backgrounds and experiences with our own general ideas and opinions. prejudices can happen within your racial and cultural boundaries too but it's tolerance and respect that seems to be lacking in both societies these days. opinions and/or differences not generally accepted because it's not the "standard" norm or way of thinking. if that was suppose to be the way, then God (or whoever you believe in) would have created us as the same mindless drones thinking and acting alike.

my two cents.

_____________________________

...2011 - year of the fabulous rock star life ...and i do it so well...

...announcing Mr. & Mrs. British Petrol ...yeah, marrying into oil is slick business...

(in reply to dawntreader)

Post #: 20

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