RE: Punishment and rewards

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MaamJay -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 5:27:03 AM)
As a Dominant I have two rules about punishment - 1) it is a LAST resort, and only for totally willful disobedience when all other methods of correction and behaviour modification have failed and 2) it is DEFINITELY not something the submissive either may enjoy or usually enjoys. Since I love to use spanking and flogging etc to give pain for pleasure, there is no way I would use physical impact as a punishment. Punishment would involve some form of withdrawal ... could be privileges (eg TV time, wearing certain clothes time, play time, sexual release etc), or of stimulation (eg stand in corner and don't say a word, think on your sins until ready to be truly repentant), or of My presence (eg go away, I am not going to speak to you and I do not want to set eyes on you for x amount of time). I am not hugely reward-giving either, though I will praise especially good work and thank a sub for serving Me as I desire. Being Dominant doesn't mean I can't be well-mannered and say thank you! Like LA and other posters, I really don't want to be in the position of continually rewarding/punishing. For Me, that means I haven't done My job as Domme well enough in that I haven't (A) set out My expectations sufficiently clearly and (B) inspired the sub to WANT to do these things to the very best of their ability to please Me. Edited cos I pressed the SEND button too soon LOL! As a sub, i have found a Master who has the same philosophy ... He has never had to punish me in the 3.5 years W/we have lived together 24/7. A couple of times i pushed it a bit close but then the enormity of what i was doing set in and i backed down hastily from my "holier than thou" attitude! Most times, He only has to indicate that He is upset or disappointed in me to have me in floods of remorse tears. That He finds rather distressing to Him, so He has learned to head off any fault on my part with a warning gesture or look that corrects me gently before any harm is done. It's a wonderful part of O/our relationship. Similarly, He doesn't reward as such, but He thanks me, praises me and comes alongside and helps me too! i am blessed! Maam Jay and violet[A]

Celeste43 -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 6:22:47 AM)
I've been punished once early on and that wasn't to get me to change my behavior, but to allow me to release guilt. I want to be here, if I didn't then all the punishments in the world wouldn't change things except get me out the door fast. What we do is talk about what the problem is. Almost invariably it has turned out to have been miscommunication. He didn't speak clearly or I misinterpreted. We've gotten better with communication plus after four years I'm much more likely to understand than in the beginning since I know him so well and vice versa. Positive reinforcements? I think everyone responds to getting good feedback. A simple thank you, or that's my girl works wonders. Too often the constant punishers seem to be seizing on mistakes as an excuse to break limits. Personally I wouldn't do well with someone like that at all.

Elorin -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 6:35:58 AM)
I punish for deliberate disobedience, and only do it once for a given behavior. If it is necessary more than that for said behavior, I point to the door. I'm also willing to punish to help release guilt. Once said punishment is over, it is only discussed academically - there is no guilt or failure associated with it. The price has been paid. Sir has punished me for losing my temper. And I will tell you, when faced with the thought of kneeling on rice for 10 minutes, I generally find it a lot easier to control my temper. Same goes for eating a plain bagel soaked in piss. While his disappointment is strong, those physical experiences are the ones that raise their hands in my head and say "REMEMBER ME?" when I'm on the verge of screaming "FUCK YOU MASTER!" again. (Yeah, so, um, we had some serious struggles back in the beginning....~sheepish~) Sir has also granted punishment when I was VERY regretful and needed something to help me let go of guilt so that I could move forward. Having said all that, I DO offer discipline - you are having trouble getting this right, so we are going to do it over, and over, and over again. Written instructions that are to be read and be tested upon. "Pop quizzes." Etc. When someone is not intentionally disobeying, but has difficulty with one of my requirements, I try to provide tools that will aid in getting better. And yes, I offer positive reinforcement. When I'm going to play with someone, if my sub has been very pleasing for a week or so I might say "I was going to do X but I'm so happy with you this week I'm doing Y (their favorite activity) instead." That's a kind of reward, but I don't do it for "one thing"...but rather for overall being pleasing and satisfying to me. I also make use of the words "thank you", "good girl", "good boy", "I really appreciate that", "you were very helpful" and "thanks, you make life so much easier for me"...among others. Reward? I dunno, but certainly positive behavior reinforcement. ~E

sweetnurseBBW -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 6:40:15 AM)
Good behavior is an expectation. My obedience is expected. I would much rather have Master happy then him having to punish me.

onestandingstill -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 7:41:03 AM)
I really enjoyed good girl spankings. They were used as rewards for things like getting all my chores done, or for being very good. I also have had spankings used for punishments. It's a very upsetting thing indeed even if it's not hard. I've been praised and punished in many other ways, but I think these two uses of spanking me were key in punishments and pleasure rewards when I lived with a Dom. suzanne

ownedgirlie -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 8:37:15 AM)
In my world there is positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement, and both have their place, depending on circumstance. The negative reinforcement was typically to curb a poor attitude; the positive was to encourage the continuance of a good attitude, or good behavior. Punishment came with blatant disobedience or going over the top with attitude, something I used to have a problem with (the attitude part, not the disobedience part). I have not had a serious punishment since last July. However, he's been so pleased with my behavior and mindset lately that he gives more and more to me, and our bond has become extremely and wonderfully tight. To those who say things like, "I always obey or else I wouldn't want to be there" it's not so much a slave does not want to be where she is. I can only say for me, the depth in which I was required to grow for him was difficult and stressful at times, and every time I was about to give more over, I fought against an internal resistance to do so, which was fear-based, due to my personal insecurities. I was never pushed to give more than I was able, or faster than I was able, but unlike so many of you, mine was not a smooth ride and I had lots of bumps and hiccoughs along the way. The way in which he reinforced me was always exactly what I needed in each circumstance. Like others, sometimes I received punishment as a cleansing, so I could let go of the guilt. Always, however, I was required to learn about myself - about why such an error was made and where it came from. I wouldn't change anything if given the choice.

kyraofMists -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 2:24:51 PM)
Punishment and reward is not a part of our relationship. He sets expectations of what he wants and I am either internally motivated to meet them or I am not. If I am not then I am not a match for him and we would not have a relationship. He does not want a slave that has to be externally motivated to obey through either reward or punishment. There are consequences for the things I do. Some are positive consequences and others are negative; however most occur naturally and are not punitive. Knight's kyra

Wildfleurs -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 2:29:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WiseCracknSadist I was curious about rule enforcement in relationships. The general concensous seems to be that when a sub or slave misbehaves they are punished. So am I to assume that good behavior is expected and anything less than what is expected is punished? Or do some couple or families also use a reward system for continued good behavior? I realize that everyone is different just looking to be enlightened. I'm not punished, nor do we have a system for rewards. I consider myself in general a slave who has some significant level of privilieges that I've earned over time and am greatful for (my owner sometimes teases me and says that I'm spoiled). When I mess up or such then I apologize, beg, or do sommersaults (whatever he thinks I should do basically). I think having a codified rewards and punishment system is really something to make the submissive feel good. They know precisely what to expect and what to do based off some predefined, prenegotiated thing. I'm probably going to sound repetitive but i'm a big proponent of learning flexibility and adjusting and aligning to a dominant depending on their desires, needs, and mood rather than setting up systems. C~

yenlui -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 2:41:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie To those who say things like, "I always obey or else I wouldn't want to be there" it's not so much a slave does not want to be where she is. I can only say for me, the depth in which I was required to grow for him was difficult and stressful at times, and every time I was about to give more over, I fought against an internal resistance to do so, which was fear-based, due to my personal insecurities. I was never pushed to give more than I was able, or faster than I was able, but unlike so many of you, mine was not a smooth ride and I had lots of bumps and hiccoughs along the way. The way in which he reinforced me was always exactly what I needed in each circumstance. This is so well written and so close to how I feel myself, that I just had to thank you for it. [;)]

ownedgirlie -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 5:16:29 PM)
Thank you for your kind words, yenlui. :)

Padriag -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 5:27:27 PM)
I agree, I think Owned summed up how many submissives feel. For many of the submissives I've known, things often did not come easy and it took time and effort for them to learn to serve, to obey, to protect themselves when necessary, to establish their own core values, to understand their own worth, to become comfortable with themselves. Most submissives I've known have had to struggle with various issues, and at times needed an extra push to get them through. Sometimes that push came in the form of a reward, sometimes in the form of a punishmetn, or an enforced boundary, or the firm reminder of an expectation or a goal. Its not unusual either, you see the same things in team sports or the military. Some days I see strong parallels between a good dom, a good coach and a good drill instructor. For those that don't have to struggle, count your blessings. For those that do, don't give up.

ownedgirlie -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 5:32:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag For those that don't have to struggle, count your blessings. For those that do, don't give up. This was a wonderful end to your post, Padriag, thank you. It took me a lot of hard work to learn and understand who I am. And it took great finesse on my Master's part to understand exactly how to tap into me. I always had the inner drive; I did not always have the right direction on how to apply it, until he showed me by way of his teachings.

disciplinedslave -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 6:51:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: yenlui The biggest "reward" that can be given, is when He tells me He's proud if me. But He does reward me in other ways too, and I really like that. Even if it's expected, it's good to be reminded on how I please Him. you said it all. it is that way for me as well. the greatest reward he can give me is to be happy about something that i have done for him. as for punishments, even though i am a masochist, physical punishments are used. i dont like to be punished physically because it changes how it makes me feel. instead of feeling pleasure i feel the pain because i have done something to make my master unhappy and now he is punishing me. most of the time just knowing that i have displeased him is punishment enough, but occasionally he feels that i need a more severe reminder.

patina -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 8:20:34 PM)
I may be wrong but i think and feel that the reward and punishment would come from the reaction of your Master. If you were good and did as He wanted then you pleased Him so your reward is knowing He is pleased. If you do things wrong and displease your Master then you will feel terrible and feel guilt for upsetting Him. So with these feeling brought out by your own desires there is no need for rewards or punishments although if a Master choses to do both or either it is his choice. I hope i have wrote this so it is clear to what i am meaning. patina

curiouslyseeking -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 8:41:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag For those that don't have to struggle, count your blessings. For those that do, don't give up. This was a wonderful end to your post, Padriag, thank you. It took me a lot of hard work to learn and understand who I am. And it took great finesse on my Master's part to understand exactly how to tap into me. I always had the inner drive; I did not always have the right direction on how to apply it, until he showed me by way of his teachings. *I want to thank you both, Padriag and ownedgirlie. Your words are both inspirational and timely for me, personally.* *Always,* *~curious~*

spanklette -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 9:04:31 PM)
I can certainly see what you're saying, patina...in fact, it's one of the reasons I serve. But...I live for the "atta girls" that come with being obedient. Even if I know that He is pleased, sometimes it's nice to have a reminder or two along the way. Even so, I would serve to the best of my abilities without rewards or the threat of punishment...it's just how I'm wired.

SirDiscipliner69 -> RE: Punishment and rewards (4/6/2007 9:07:02 PM)
When a subbie misbehaves discipline come in. When thee trangression is severe enough then punishment is talked about and if agreed to resolutely carried out. If she declines she is released. she knew today was the start of her physical training. All sorts of http://www.collarchat.com/m_924028/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm The breakdown of communication resulted in the breakdown of the relationship. http://www.collarchat.com/m_923442/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm Ross ©º°¨¨°º©

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