RE: Question for British Members

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Dtesmoac -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 10:21:14 AM)
Seeks I think it is a lesson which different countries learn at different times and frequently forget. e.g. Sweeden, a third of the adult male population was killed in the 30 yrs war and was the start of their Neutrality policy, Switzerland only became a Neutral nation when technology changed and their Pikemen no longer ruled the battlefield, and the population was unable to sustain casualties. You only have to look back at the glee with which the Task Force was sent to the Falklands to realise that time eases the horrors, it is personal contact with things that truly changes perspective....or through contact with people that have truly experienced it..........and memory can be short lived.

missturbation -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 10:34:05 AM)
From watching the news yesterday and the beginnings of the royal navys report into what happened there has been no denial that the 15 soldiers were in water they shouldnt have been. So basically the apologies they made on tv would seem to be appropriate to me. If they werent in water they shouldnt have been then in my opinion they still did the right thing, maintaining their survival, release.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 10:46:19 AM)
MsT: if your second Spanish quote is true and I understand it properly then meet me behind the bike sheds after school. lol nb I am not gelded.

missturbation -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 10:52:53 AM)
Lol apparently its true, my claim to fame you could say. [:D]

caitlyn -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 1:42:53 PM)
General response ... I was really hoping this wasn't going to go in the "compare UK and US" direction. What the UK does, and how it feels about it's people, is their own business. I was only interrested in the reaction of some Brits here, to the conduct of the men. Some silly, can't mind their own fucking business, American reporters seem to think they have a right to make commentary, and are now in the business of finding retired British soldiers to support their busy-body claims. On an unrelated topic ... I have to completely differ with Dtesmoac (which I generally do about 100% of the time) concerning the will of Americans. I think your point, as usual, is pointless. Please explain your theory as it applies to: American Civil War Belleau Wood Kassarine Pass 8th Airforce Omaha Beach Bastogne First Strike at Midway Nearly any island in the Pacific Puson Perimeter Tet Offensive

mnottertail -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 1:45:28 PM)
quote: I was really hoping this wasn't going to go in the "compare UK and US" direction. I could sure use some of your optimism, little bug. Ron

meatcleaver -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 3:47:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn General response ... American Civil War Belleau Wood Kassarine Pass 8th Airforce Omaha Beach Bastogne First Strike at Midway Nearly any island in the Pacific Puson Perimeter Tet Offensive While all of the above involved mindless deaths, none compare to foreign troops running amok and destroying and killing the American population in their own homes. I would say Britain hasn't experienced what most continental European countries have experienced either, which is why I think Britain probably has less problems with allying itself to US foreign policy than most continental European countries. Britain's worst war on home territory, like America, was a civil war too which isn't the same as a foreign enemy subjugating and murdering the population.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 8:08:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn General response ... I was really hoping this wasn't going to go in the "compare UK and US" direction. What the UK does, and how it feels about it's people, is their own business. I was only interrested in the reaction of some Brits here, to the conduct of the men. Some silly, can't mind their own fucking business, American reporters seem to think they have a right to make commentary, and are now in the business of finding retired British soldiers to support their busy-body claims. I thought that was what I provided you with in my first post, I also included a link to a BBC page which had an article on the issue and which was also running a comments section with a variety of British and other view points on the matter. This first reply did not mention the US or compare with the UK. *My second post replied to Juliaocean and was a coment on the US observation. - so I am guilty here, but not apologetic.*

Dtesmoac -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 8:41:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn On an unrelated topic ... I have to completely differ with Dtesmoac (which I generally do about 100% of the time) concerning the will of Americans. and there was me thinking you were a disciple of the great sage Dtes....LOL If everyone agreed with me it would be a boring forum page I think your point, as usual, is pointless. .....so thats why you responded by asking for an explanation.....ok here goes smile caitlin lifes to short to be annoyed with old codgers like me. Please explain your theory as it applies to: American Civil War - 1861 to 1865 3% of US population casualty, 203,000 soldiers killed in action, the first industrialised war. Belleau Wood - WWI 9777 US casualties 1811 killed - this was a WWI Battle look at casualty rates further down. Kassarine Pass - the battle somtimes described as where the amatuers met the professionals, 6000 allied casualties - theres an interesting note about the nationality of the soldiers that held the line on the second day..........!!! compare and contrast with other WWII casualty figures 8th Airforce - getting somewhere, casualty rates starting to look high - 54000 killed or captured Omaha Beach - 3000 casualties from 40000 troops - interesting number 3000 Bastogne - "Nuts (go to hell) " Puson Perimeter - 4599 killed in action on UN side. Ice cream readily available in parlors across America while it was happening Stalingrad - life expectancy of Soviet soldier 24 hours, over 500,000 soviet soldeirs killed in one battle, more than the US lost in the entire second world war. Hiroshima - 130,000 killed in a few minutes, more people killed than the US lost in the entire First World War. *The battle of the Somme - 1.22 million dead and wounded in one battle, 60,000 allied casualties in the first day.* *WWI* *France lost 1.9 million soldiers and civilians from a population of 40 million. 500,000 civilians. The US lost 757 civilians................. yep the US knows what war is all about* WWII *The US lost 0.32% of its 131 million population 11200 of which were civilians* *China lost 3.86% of its 517 million population, including 16,000,000 civilians* *The UK whilst fianancially ruined by the war had low casualties - 0.94% of the population, a pathetic 67,800 civilians* *The Soviet Union lost 13.7% of its population, well over 11million civilians.* Yes your right, my theory that the US has no comprehension of or experience of the real cost of war is correct........at the moment with KIAs of 0.000012% of the population, and a wounded rate of 0.00019% of the population, with incredible discounts in Joanes, Cub Food, Walmart and every car dealership offering a cheap sale and freely available incredably cheap fuel.....................the US is experiencing total war................ I totally agree with you Caitlyn I was way off line......... :) please read with sparkling eyes and bit smile....... I really, really hope the US never ever experiences a true fight for survival war.......coz god only knows what will have happended every where else by then. (this last bit should be read without my normal mischevious twinkle - its as close to sincere as I ever get.

caitlyn -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 9:51:21 PM)
I sort of guessed you would either ignore or completely miss the only points that have true meaning. You have some interresting (if a bit incomplete) numbers, that to me, are about 2% of the conclusion you are trying to reach (which is probably why I find fault with your logic). Did you stop to consider that a country willing to send their people off to die in wars that don't even directly effect them, might well know the cost of war? How about our inner cities ... would you want to walk the street here in Houston, late at night? Just so you know ... we actually fucking live here. Want to see a war zone? Do you have any clue what it's like to be a homeless kid in a place like LA? I'm not irritated or upset with any of you Brits ... trust me. I do think though, that some of you guys need to shake youself out of that dream you are having, where you're trying to sell how much smarter you are than everyone else, and somehow have a right to tell everyone else, how they should be living. Trust me ... nobody is buying.

juliaoceania -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 9:58:27 PM)
Here I thought it was Americans that have that smug "we can blow your ass off the face of the Earth anytime we feel like it" sort of superiority going on, more than Brits have a superior attitude... who knows, maybe I am just not a nationalist.

caitlyn -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 10:10:29 PM)
You are letting your hatred for one cowboy administration, make you see a predisposition to blow up the world. It doesn't exist, because if it did, we would have done it by now. It has nothing to do with nationalism.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 10:56:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn I sort of guessed you would either ignore or completely miss the only points that have true meaning. Highlight the points that I miss and I'll respond. You have some interresting (if a bit incomplete) numbers, that to me, are about 2% of the conclusion you are trying to reach (which is probably why I find fault with your logic). When you compare the casualties from different sources thare are always enormous differences. I think those I used illustrated the point. Individual and local pain from warfare is enourmous. In the small towns where the national guard etc have been drafted the impact of a few casualties can be massive but compared to the total US population they are miniscul. Did you stop to consider that a country willing to send their people off to die in wars that don't even directly effect them, might well know the cost of war? Which war/s are you referring to? Check the history books you talk about so much, the US tended to stay out as much as they could until it did directly affect them. Send people off to die in wars is perhaps the point. 9/11 hit home to the US so much because it was perhaps the first real taste for over 100 years of what a war is really like. How about our inner cities ... would you want to walk the street here in Houston, late at night? Just so you know ... we actually fucking live here. Want to see a war zone? Do you have any clue what it's like to be a homeless kid in a place like LA? No but Johanasburg and San Paulo are interesting, I've also occasionally had to be provided with armed guards. Being homeless is not something I have or wish to experience, not sure of the relevence to your argument but its polite for me to respond ...!! I'm not irritated or upset with any of you Brits ... trust me. I do think though, that some of you guys need to shake youself out of that dream you are having, where you're trying to sell how much smarter you are than everyone else, and somehow have a right to tell everyone else, how they should be living. You are missing the point, we don't tell you how you should live, we point out that just because that is the way it is in the US, the rest of the world may be different, you are mixing us up with many of the American posters. My constant comparison with the US is because during the time I am living in the US I am trying to understand the differences, one way to do that is to incite others to justify their beliefs, attitudes and values. Trust me ... nobody is buying. - in America everything is for sale and everyone is buying....its the real religion. NB not been to LA but San fransisco is one of the nicest cities I have been to in the US.

NorthernGent -> RE: Question for British Members (4/6/2007 11:49:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn I'm curious how Brits feel about the conduct of the Royal Navy and especially Royal Marines, that were just released by the Iranians. As a pacifist, my main thought on their conduct is what the fuck are they doing joining the army or navy. We are their ghosts in this game organised by lunatics and played by monkeys (Richard H Tawney, key figure in establishing the ethics of the British Labour Party and the foundations of the National Health Service). He included that commentary in his memoirs. They were his thoughts as he lay wounded on The Somme with thousands of men slaughtered around him. In my book, he's calling it right, and the most appropriate conduct for the monkeys is to not join the armed forces and play the games organised by lunatics. I have a father who served in the Royal Airforce from 18 to 50, and an Uncle who was a bomb disposal expert - served in Northern Ireland at the height of the troubles, and The Falklands War. Personally, I think it's all bollocks and there's no glory in death. In terms of who said what, laughed when, joked about this or that, was court-martialled by whom, in whose waters was someone sailing a boat - I can't shed any light on this matter and I'll confess to being overwhelmingly disinterested by the small details of a wider picture. Edited for spelling.

NorthernGent -> RE: Question for British Members (4/7/2007 2:18:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn General response ... I was really hoping this wasn't going to go in the "compare UK and US" direction. quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn I'm not irritated or upset with any of you Brits ... trust me. I do think though, that some of you guys need to shake youself out of that dream you are having, where you're trying to sell how much smarter you are than everyone else, and somehow have a right to tell everyone else, how they should be living. Caitlyn, if you're genuinely interested in what the English contingent think about Iran, then best to practice what you preach rather than follow up your first quote with your second quote containing ill-conceived views on whom is entitled to comment on what, and what is actually the focus of the commentary. From where I'm standing, your intention appears to be to press a few buttons and start petty arguments. Concentrate on the matter at hand rather than personalities and nationality. If you can't deal with opinions and ideas, then best not to get involved in conversations. At the same time, the penny will soon drop that your little outbursts aren't going to prevent the likes of me having an opinion on US foreign policy and the impact outside US borders. A cynic would suggest that the real intention of your thread is thinly-veiled in your second quote. Then again, you could prove the cynics wrong and focus on opinions and ideas instead of nationality. Mind you, if you are to do this, then it would be wise to inform the US air raid warning manufacturers as you'll be the catalyst for a downturn in their economic well-being.

caitlyn -> RE: Question for British Members (4/7/2007 5:24:43 PM)
Total deflection on your part. The original post asked for an opinion of how you Brits felt about the conduct of your troops. I didn't really ask what anyone thought about Iran, not did I give any opinion of my own. When you asked for a follow-up, I expanded, and made it clear that Americans have no business butting into your business. I also again, never gave an opinion of my own. It was the Brits here, that used this thread a yet another "bash the US" thread. All I did is was respond to what I didn't agree with. Still, in all that, I haven't butted my nose into your business. That you can't stay out of ours, is your problem. Don't try to make it like we are doing this same thing to you, because we aren't. You don't see a bunch of Americans hammering on literally anything and everything you do.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Question for British Members (4/7/2007 10:46:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn The original post asked for an opinion of how you Brits felt about the conduct of your troops. I didn't really ask what anyone thought about Iran, not did I give any opinion of my own. - and the first responses gave a Brit perspective. It was the Brits here, that used this thread a yet another "bash the US" thread. All I did is was respond to what I didn't agree with. Still, in all that, I haven't butted my nose into your business.I think it was post 16 which first included a comparison of UK and US, I think this was by an American. That you can't stay out of ours, is your problem. Don't try to make it like we are doing this same thing to you, because we aren't. You don't see a bunch of Americans hammering on literally anything and everything you do. - if they did or didn't wouldnt bother me. I am however always interested in other view points to see whther they change my perspective on issues. .....the conduct of the Royal Navy and especially Royal Marines.... was the thread post, in the US as you will be aware most of the media comparisons have related to either the Iranian Hostage situation some years ago or questions about why there wasn't a blazzing shoot out, or why the Brits are so softly, softly wth the incident. .....ref USA today, local papers and NPR as examples...........therfore it seemd logial to put context into why there may be a differnence on Brit and US perspective on how the service personal did / should have conducted themselves, following the post 16 which compared UK / US . I don't see it as bashing the US ......but then differeing opinions is what a forum / debate is about.

Dtesmoac -> RE: Question for British Members (4/8/2007 7:36:42 AM)
News article that illustrates how you can not keep issues as just one nation http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=3L4OIAHM20XWVQFIQMFSFF4AVCBQ0IV0?xml=/news/2007/04/08/nsailors108.xml

m0rgan -> purely for comparison purposes; (4/12/2007 5:27:23 AM)
the released english prisoners were given a goody bag and a new suit, one released kidnapped iranian envoy had his feet drilled; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6544055.stm whose side is god on, and who behaved more honorably?

caitlyn -> RE: purely for comparison purposes; (4/12/2007 10:40:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: m0rgan the released english prisoners were given a goody bag and a new suit, one released kidnapped iranian envoy had his feet drilled; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6544055.stm whose side is god on, and who behaved more honorably? The soldier I know over there, when he was here over Thanksgiving, said that if someone is captured by the Iraqis, they will absolutely be tortured. He said that a lot of the civilians that are being employed over there, will stand around and laugh while it happens.

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