Seeking other home theater enthusiasts (Full Version)

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Totalmaster4you -> Seeking other home theater enthusiasts (4/7/2007 12:36:04 AM)

I'm very much into home theater. I have a 1080p front projector with a 10 foot screen. I've just upgraded the audio as well. I'd like to hear from other BDSMers who enjoy this as well and/or people who are getting ready to get their first flat/big screen tv. Maybe I can help save you from an incompetent salesperson or some money. Best wishes and happy Easter or Passover to all.



Termyn8or -> RE: Seeking other home theater enthusiasts (4/7/2007 6:19:35 AM)

I am not an enthusiast, I stopped watching TV a while ago, but I work on the stuff.

Lemme say this, I hope your  new projector is DLP, not LCD. Even the DLP will melt the color wheel, so if you can get one now, get it now. Manufacturers are getting to the point where they don't want to sell parts even after two years. For some units, no parts ever are or were available. How do they get away with this ? This is America, and big business can do as it pleases.

Anyway, that is assuming your new toy is DLP. In time the high intensity lamp will begin to melt/warp the color wheel. I've seen one fixed by holding a lighter under the shaft and bending it straight. You can't count on that always working though.

If it's an LCD based projector, as soon as you see one small color impurity, sell it to someone you really hate. What happens is the polarizing filter(s) begin to melt. These are required for the operation of the LCD panels. Replacing one makes the cost of a new bulb look trifling. The problem is not only the complexity of the light engine, but determining the orientation of the filter. This is almost impossible without the unit running, and it will not run ½ apart. Even if it would, the technician would be blind for a day from exposure to the bright light.

As a seasoned pro, I have the following advice for ownrers of DLP and LCD projectors :

Never unplug the unit when it is on. The fan needs to run for a few minutes after you shut it off or it begins to melt the internal components.

Do not bump, move or in any way jar, even tap on the unit while it is in operation. In fact observe same for at least five minutes after shutting the unit off.

Keep the air filters clean, I cannot stress this enough. In fact I would suggest an auxiliary fan to boost the airflow and a hepafilter on the intake. However the design of some units makes this impossible.

Many of these units' end of life comes within 5 years. A CRT based projector can last up to twice as long, but you're not likely to find one that does 1080p. The difficulty comes in designing the horizontal sweep circuit. The other problem is the CRTs lose their abuility to focus over time. It gets to the point where the spot size is three times the raster line width and then it is useless to have an HDTV.

The world of brownwares (the term used for TVs and stereos, DVDs all that) is the catch 22 situation over the last 20 years. Cheapo units came in, and people bought them, when they didn't last they bought more. Now it is a continuous price war. I think if I pay as much for a TV as a good used car there should not be one single piece of plastic in it, except for what has to be plastic.

I think it should be made servicable and parts should be available. But you see how this doesn't work for the manufacturers.

With the manufacturing facilities amortizing, we should see a drop in the price of LCDs and DLPs. In fact it is already happening. It is incerdibly cheap to manufacture these things, but the masks, molds and dies were very expensive and that cost must be recouped. After all the execs get enough bonuses, one manufacturer will bring the price structure down, and they will all follow suit of course, to stay competitive.

Not to blow your world, but the $3,000 or so you pay for one of these things is about five times what they're worth. I also want to know why the lightbulbs are over $200. Actually now the price of those is coming down a bit. But see, the reason for that is because with heavy use you might replace it twice a year. And hope it is user replaceable, because I am not touching one of those things for less than $100 labor. It is not that it is so difficult, it is that it is too easy for something to go wrong.

And you might even consider throwing it away when the first bulb burns out. The bulb can burn out the power supply, the power supply can burn out the bulb. One insidious fault in the power supply can cause a new bulb to only last a month. If the innerds of the bulb burn down the wrong way it can completely fry the power supply and of course you need to get out you wallet.

Plasma is no better, they are toasters. If I owned the company where I work, we wouldn't even take them in for service at all. Simply refuse.

So that's the skinny and the thinny from one of the pros who knows.

Really, I hope you enjoy the toy. Thing to remember is this is not a 13" hanging under your kitchen counter. These TVs are not the kind you set to go off on a timer, sit there in your underwear and watch ½ the news and then go take a shower, then turn off about 45 minutes later. Then stop home for a nooner and put on a porno for fifteen minutes while while you grab your Wife and a sandwich.

See it is not only the heat, it is the thermal cyling, and what happens turning on and off. Any mechanical engineers around ? They can tell you what happens in such an environment better than I, what happens when things expand and contract, how much stored thermal energy is in the light bulb, all that.

Units like that are meant to watch movies and things like that. Once fired up, it is actually better if they stay on for a few hours, as long as the cooling is adequate. As I said, I would do whatever I could to enhance the cooling.

So enjoy, really, I mean that. But don't think it's going to last 20 years like Pop's old Zenith from the 70s. Just ain't happenin.

T



farglebargle -> RE: Seeking other home theater enthusiasts (4/7/2007 8:12:28 AM)

There's a shitload of difference b/t projectors for the Pro market , and those for the Home Theater market.

No-one in the H/T market really wants to pony up the bucks to do it right, I've found however. Who wants to spend 10 grand on their projector?



Termyn8or -> RE: Seeking other home theater enthusiasts (4/7/2007 3:24:30 PM)

Farg, if the dude has 1080p on a ten foot screen, we are talking just about five figures, if not very close.

T



farglebargle -> RE: Seeking other home theater enthusiasts (4/7/2007 6:54:15 PM)

You can get into 1080p for under 5 grand these days. Not sure if it's worth it, seeing as TOP of the line pro is something like 50k. Me? I just rent whenever needed. (Summer parties, with a king sized bedsheet hanging up between the trees sorta thing... ) Not tied down to any capital expense, and the budget goes much further. ( That said, I watch most of my video on this here 19" LCD ViewSonic monitor off of a MythTV box. )




Totalmaster4you -> RE: Seeking other home theater enthusiasts (4/7/2007 11:03:06 PM)

Thanks for all the information Termyn8or. FYI It's the Optoma HD81 dlp single chip. So far their service dept. has been very nice. I was in touch because the new LG dual Hi Def player is capable of 1080p @24 frames per while the Optoma is 60 frames per so they won't shake hands and play nice, but they're working on a solution. Even so the 1080i picture is incredible on good transfers.
Fargle FYI Sony lowered it's price for their 1080p projector to $5000. They did it shortly after I bought the Optoma for a bit more but including the screen I was still under $10,000 by over $2400. No offense but your sheet and 19" lcd really aren't home theater. Currently top of the line, say Runco projectors run $100,000.
Bye the way my audio cost more than the video and is setup as a 6.1 system. Everyone who's seen the system has said it's better than a movie theater.
Have a Happy Easter guys.



Real0ne -> RE: Seeking other home theater enthusiasts (4/7/2007 11:40:27 PM)


Sure i will join this party...

As far as video is concerned i like a 21" computer monitor on the coffee table the best, otherwise that 35 in front is ok.

What really makes it isnt the picture as much as the sound, here is a pic of my home brew horns, couple different designs..... i build mine and also build them occassionally for friends.  i use them mostly for live concert sort of stuff more so than tv, that is their claim to fame is that you can go to a black sabboth concert and come home and there is little to no difference sort of thing.   Fun toy if you like getting bounced around the house lol

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v199/rnrss/Stereo/Lspeaker.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v199/rnrss/Stereo/MyRockinSpeakerDesignFinishedVersio.jpg





farglebargle -> RE: Seeking other home theater enthusiasts (4/7/2007 11:59:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Totalmaster4you

Thanks for all the information Termyn8or. FYI It's the Optoma HD81 dlp single chip. So far their service dept. has been very nice. I was in touch because the new LG dual Hi Def player is capable of 1080p @24 frames per while the Optoma is 60 frames per so they won't shake hands and play nice, but they're working on a solution. Even so the 1080i picture is incredible on good transfers.
Fargle FYI Sony lowered it's price for their 1080p projector to $5000. They did it shortly after I bought the Optoma for a bit more but including the screen I was still under $10,000 by over $2400. No offense but your sheet and 19" lcd really aren't home theater.


Nope. We're renting JVC DLA-M5000s these days, so it ain't "Home Theater"... It's Theater Theater. Again, only for parties. ( Gotta watch the old videos in style, don't we.... )

I'm of the opinion that Home Theater Market is like the Audiophile Market. Go see a real play or rock and roll show, and use the leftover money for a really nice hotel room or limo, or dinner for the party, etc...

You simply cannot reproduce the environment at home, no matter what you try. In fact, given that I first saw movies in places with like 3000 seats, it's hard to reproduce that environment at the local megaplex. Same with rock shows. You cannot simulate the reality of a million dollars worth of PA system properly aligned for a 3000 seat room with anything less than a million dollar PA system and a 3000 seat room.

To sum up. After Blazing Saddles it was all downhill.




farglebargle -> RE: Seeking other home theater enthusiasts (4/8/2007 12:04:28 AM)

http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/matterhorn.htm



Termyn8or -> RE: Seeking other home theater enthusiasts (4/8/2007 3:57:33 AM)

When money is no object.

They can make a true 3D screen. It can be done with a slightly different application of existing technology. For years they tried to fool you, But they never fooled me.

It can indeed be done in black and white, for color, there is a whole nother set of problems.

To prove the point let me start describing those hexagonal shadow boxes with the one string of lights going around it. The thing uses mirrors and gives the impression of depth. Almost everyone has seen these.

Now picture a multi layer LCD screen with similar mirrors. One in which they could direct the light to be reflected multipe times. Folks we are talking flat panel 3D here. Many many layers, but they are layers.

Perhaps they can do 50 layers, getting that to work is a task, and I think has been done, but it was from digitally generated graphics.

Now to do this with anything in real life, the scene would have to be picked up by a stereoscopic camera. Conversion of the data would be an awesome task. In other words I think they got the display, but nothing to feed it with.

At times I see the cutting edge of technology, and it is one of the few things that actually scares me. Come on, do you really think they scrapped all those Sony cameras that could see through clothes ? I know they didn't and I don't need any proof. If you were them what would you do ?

They sold them where I worked a long time ago, and they were threatening people with heavy fines and jail for not turning these units in. Ummm, I didn't hear of any legislation, so what was the authority ?

OK, off politics.

T



Real0ne -> RE: Seeking other home theater enthusiasts (4/8/2007 5:37:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Totalmaster4you

Thanks for all the information Termyn8or. FYI It's the Optoma HD81 dlp single chip. So far their service dept. has been very nice. I was in touch because the new LG dual Hi Def player is capable of 1080p @24 frames per while the Optoma is 60 frames per so they won't shake hands and play nice, but they're working on a solution. Even so the 1080i picture is incredible on good transfers.
Fargle FYI Sony lowered it's price for their 1080p projector to $5000. They did it shortly after I bought the Optoma for a bit more but including the screen I was still under $10,000 by over $2400. No offense but your sheet and 19" lcd really aren't home theater.


Nope. We're renting JVC DLA-M5000s these days, so it ain't "Home Theater"... It's Theater Theater. Again, only for parties. ( Gotta watch the old videos in style, don't we.... )

I'm of the opinion that Home Theater Market is like the Audiophile Market. Go see a real play or rock and roll show, and use the leftover money for a really nice hotel room or limo, or dinner for the party, etc...

You simply cannot reproduce the environment at home, no matter what you try. In fact, given that I first saw movies in places with like 3000 seats, it's hard to reproduce that environment at the local megaplex. Same with rock shows. You cannot simulate the reality of a million dollars worth of PA system properly aligned for a 3000 seat room with anything less than a million dollar PA system and a 3000 seat room.

To sum up. After Blazing Saddles it was all downhill.




you may want to take a looksie at the equipment in my picture, it is pa equipment and the only reason its a million bucks in the large outdoor concert is not because it takes a million bucks to reproduce that sound but because they are hitting a 50,000+ crowd.  The set i posted will do permanent ear damage in about 3 minutes with a max volume of about 145 db peak c weighted crystal clear at 15ft.  frankly it makes the house heave if you turn it up.   sort of a strange feeling lol

Oh the reason i chose to build horns is that they sound great at very low levels as well as loud to the extreme.   There are a lot of things one has to know how to deal with hoeever when doing the extremes in as much as support equipment to get it to sound up as i say.   So you wind up spending more on processing equip than the speakers.  That and you need need the real time anaalysers and the lot just to set it up properly.  Its gets pretty involved to the point that most audiophiles would not be interested

basically any fully mic'd concert where the all the instruments are being presented to the audience through speakers are fully reproducable "if the recording is properly done".   Its the live unamplified instrument stuff that is more difficult because perfectly reproducing that, tho you can get it to sound great and extremely close it is impossible to get it so good that you cannot distinguish the difference if ya know what i mean.  or at least i have never been able to nor have i put an ear to anyone elses design who has been able to accomplish this.  but the amplified concerts you just need the right gear.



Termyn8or -> RE: Seeking other home theater enthusiasts (4/8/2007 2:54:02 PM)

To reproduce a muted trumpet correctly, for example, takes over 2,000 watts. It is not the sheer volume of the instrument, it is the harmonics. Similar difficulties arise trying to record it, the dynamic range needed is not even approached by 44.1K-16 bit (CD quality).

Actually if you unmute the trumpet is doesn't take all that much more power. It is that the sound spectrum is more filled in so to speak.Even reproducing drums can be a challenge. And you never really do it. You can do it adequately, like the muted trumpet, noone will know, but it is still not accurate reproduction. Never was. Never will be.

Back in the day, when people were proud of what they do and would write things, Roy Allison wrote some very interesting articles relating to what happens to sound once it comes out of the speaker. I read every word with true enthusiasm. I had headphones that hit over 135dB. They were Sony MDR-CD5s. They were flat from TWO hertz to 22K. Turntable rumble would cause a rush of air from between the pads and your ears. I know, I had it happen.

The only thing louder I can think of was the Sansui SS10s. I modified them of course, cutting most of the foam away, they then felt more like a pair of Koss, but they were alot louder. I do not have the specs, but you could crank them up and wouldn't even have to put them on.

I used to listen to the Sonys AND speakers. I would get that sweet clarity at very high levels from the MDR-CD5s, and the speakers would shake the floor, and me.

Horns ? there are very few I like. I like domes better for the clarity. I got the old Boston A150s and I want a couple more pairs of them. They are so clear, distortion free and have such phase linearity that I have never seen, save for one time. I auditioned a pair of Kanton eight inch three ways which were as good or better than the Bostons. They also cost over twice as much. I mean the guy played 'Lil Duece coupe' and I literally looked around for the singers, I found it hard to believe the speakers were doing that. This was the most superior imaging and sound quality I had ever experienced. This was the benchmark that spurred me on to buy the Bostons.

Here's a cool thing I used to do , for Cleveland Browns football games. When they were an ABC (channel 5 here) I would play the rear channels only from the TV audio, the front channels were fed by the radio. See ABC used to mix the crowd mikes into the L-R channel pure, with no enhancement. So I had the crowd in the back, and ALOT more competent announcers in the front. And the picture was on my five foot Advent. And I had one of the few that really worked right.

Yup, football day used to be a big thing here, but I don't even watch it anymore.

While I am still an expert on electronics, optics and acoustics, but the whole thing has lost it's luster for me. This was a major shift in attitude. I don't want it brought home alive, like Pioneer used to say, I want to give it life.

Right now there are more speakers than musical instruments in my house, but I am working on it. In fact I just bought a Casio PX110. I am currently pumping it through the Bostons, and it sounds like there is a piano in here.

I can't ask for much more, except for more power.

Happy Easter I guess. It means nothing to me, but in consideration to those to whom it does mean something, I wish you a good one.

T



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