RE: refusing to use safeword (Full Version)

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aldompdx -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/7/2007 11:46:46 PM)

Trust is more often misplaced than it is breached. One must gain confidence through experience over time.

Use of a safe word is about self respect and personal responsibility. It is NOT about asserting authority over another person, or bargaining (giving to get). Using a safe word is not failure, but a symbol of successful surrender to one's limit. A dominant feels complimented and honored to have gone there with the submissive. A submissive shows their openness and emotional vulnerability by using a safe word. A proud or competitive sub who withholds or conceals proper use of a safe word, they have failed to more deeply surrender with openness and honesty.



Celeste43 -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 4:54:17 AM)

I think that he's failing her because he already knows she has a problem, but instead of helping her solve it he punishes her for having an inability to safeword out by breaking her limits.



Elorin -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 7:29:16 AM)

Some things from my experience and opinions.

1) I met someone once who caused a bottom to safeword before he'd play. Whether it was a cane, or a knife, or a clamp, he would say "I am going to keep (increasing pressure, hitting harder, what have you) until you safeword". Generally pain that is inflicted quickly and without the benefit of a headspace developed during a scene led to a pretty responsive use of the safeword, and quickly. The next comment was "Now that we both know that you CAN safeword, I expect you to safeword if things get that bad again. I don't anticipate you needing to, but if there is an emergency, you are responsible for letting me know if I have damaged you unintentionally or hurt you worse than you can handle." This made use of the safeword an order to the bottom, not just a protocol that was in place. And if the bottom did NOT safeword, or seemed to go past reasonable endurance without safewording despite the intro? He didn't play with them again.

2) Praise your subs when they use their safeword. Period. Do things to make them safeword and then praise them, and explain to them how while what you did was intentional, there are times when things can happen UNintentionally, and you need them to communicate in the same way to help you, to serve you, and to protect your property.

3) Set up a system of safeword use and make that use clear to your subs. Here is mine: If you say yellow, I am going to change what I am doing. I might hit lighter, less often, switch toys, or pick a different area of your body. But that is what I am going to do, I'm going to change what I'm doing in scene. There will be no discussion, conversation, or anything else, and play will not stop. If I ask a question, you should nod or shake your head. (I.E. SMACK! Yellow! "Good girl!! Did that wrap?" Negative headshake. "Is it this spot in the small of your back?" Positive head nod.) but I won't always ask questions. If you say RED I am going to stop what I am doing, and make sure a) you are alright b)what caused you to safeword and c) if you need to stop playing or not. I am going to bring you out of your headspace until you can concentrate and communicate clearly, but it does NOT mean the end of our scene. If it means no more (cane, fire, electricity) at the time, that's fine, but we do not have to stop playing because you safeworded.
The reason that I have my system set up this way is that it means subs are not afraid that safewording will displease me, they aren't afraid that if they safeword I will stop playing with them, and they are able to communicate without worrying about possible consequences. I have found my subs to be MUCH more relaxed, and I can trust them more with this system than when I am afraid that if something happens and I don't notice or can't know about it (mental shift, start of an asthma attack, an ex just walked by in the dungeon and they were yanked from  headspace suddenly, charleyhorse) that I will be informed, and promptly.


I don't think that pushing limits is a bad idea. I DO think that you should not do it until you can trust that your subs have the tools and the willingness to use them to communicate to you when they have gone too far. Obviously, good communication is great. And having a sub call over their shoulder "charley horse" will cause me to stop and find the cramp and work it out, just as well as calling "RED" will. I rarely have needed the use of safewords in scenes, but the times that I have, it was invaluable - because the source of the safewording issue was not ANYTHING I could have predicted, noticed, or prevented.

Mail on the other side if you'd like more of my opinion.

~E



N4SDChastity -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 7:49:12 AM)

All very good points.  I believe I will incorporate some of that into my next relationship, if you don't mind (I'm certain you won't, but mum taught me manners).  Especially #'s 1 and 3.  It's gonna take some thinking to morph my, "Yes," "Only-if," and "Not-unless" scheme, but I'm a fairly smart/creative kinda guy, I'll figger it out.  thx.



Elorin -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 7:55:21 AM)

The way that you have trained your subs in the past is a method frequently referred to as "voice training" in BDSM circles, and is quite valid. For me, I always felt that the purpose of a safeword is to give a short, very rememberable syllable to a sub so that if they are in the midst of serious pain, serious emotional distress or whatever causes them to need it, they can get it out.

I come from a background of mental illness, both for myself and for my earliest lifestyle partner. Thoughts in your head can run the wrong direction and trigger a negative reaction, without anyone else the wiser, much less all the things that can go wrong in a scene.

My safeword is red, I give it to my bottoms to use, I use it as a bottom. It is short and sweet. If I'm so far gone that I'm nonverbal, I can almost always choke out red. If I'm in pain, I can almost always get "RED" out. That's why I use it. Use of a safeword doesn't invalidate voice training...but if your sub has a cramp, and doesn't have a way to INITIATE something to you...or the initiation is too long (i.e. "My prince, may your slave speak?")...then it takes that much longer for you to find out about the cramp.

And I'm REALLY big on "you only endure the pain I intentionally give...all other pain it is my job to help heal."

~s~

Oh, you might also remember, when playing, if the sub looks in pain but you dont' want to disturb bliss, in case that's what it is - ask this "Safeword?" and if they nod yes, you stop. If you feel they are so far gone you can't play b/c they can't react, bringing them back by asking "What's your safeword?" until they can answer "Red"...and then say "do you need to use it?" is a good way to ground and let them know you ARE paying attention.
~E



yenlui -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 7:55:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

I think that he's failing her because he already knows she has a problem, but instead of helping her solve it he punishes her for having an inability to safeword out by breaking her limits.


Yes, there's no better way of saying it! I really can't see what can be gained from pushing somone beyond their limits only to hear the safeword.



MstrssPassion -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 8:14:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeOwner18
does anyone have any suggestions for these situations?


This post has gone so off track that there is probably no way to bring it back.

I think we all agree that everyone has a different point of view as to why they do or do not use safewords... this wasn't what the OP was about.

I think we can all agree that no one should ever knowingly push someone beyond their limitations especially when the individual refuses to end the activity for some still yet unknown reason. A responsible & trustworthy Top would identify the physical limitations of the one they are topping & cease the activity before going to far... like he originally said, he could cut an arm off & they would offer the other... does that mean you proceed & cut their arms off because they won't stop you ?? COME ON!!!

There were many other valid points raised but to be honest I don't think one of you in your honest to goodness efforts to post your own stories took time to truly address this matter in the way that is was asked... note the quote from the OP above.

I offered a suggestion... if you instruct your bottom to do something during your physical activities, your session, your scene (insert your preferred term here) & they refuse to do so THEN YOU STOP THE ACTIVITY.

In this case it was the failure to use a safeword.... ok, it could have been hop on one foot & hum yankee doodle dandee... I don't care... the fact remains that for what its worth, he is a top who has willing bottoms who engage in physical activities with him & as the Top he is in the position to have things go down the way he wants them to go down. The bottom either consent to the style of play & what the top asks them to do or they don't engage in the activity. Defying them is not an option. By he allowing them to defy him & continuing the activity after they refuse to play by the rules he has set up is where he is making a huge mistake. Without uttering a word you have basically told them that your rules mean squat & they can get away with breaking rules... this sentiment will carry on to other areas where you attempt to enforce your rules. If they don't have to follow them there why should they be held to follow them elsewhere?


The only recourse a top has is to discontinue the action/activity & not engage in it until the bottom agrees to the terms or until you renegotiate the terms so that all persons can comply with them.



Bearlee -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 8:15:58 AM)

From this thread:

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=660164&key=safeword

My post there discusses the single time I have been in need of a safe word and COULD not use it!
 
I do not understand doms who TRY to make a girl use a safe word (which is not what happened to me OR what I believe the OP is suggesting here)…but some do.  I am of the opinion, like several others here, that protecting the sub is the responsibility of both the sub and the one(s) who beat her.
 
There may very well be times when the girl may think she needs to safe word (if she’s able to think at all while in subspace), but who is unable to make that fact known.
 
One other possibility here?  Maybe the OP’s idea of when she should probably safe word is considerably different than when SHE thinks she should.  I like serious welts from a single tail…some Doms are unable to make them.. for their distaste of ‘hurting’ the girl.
 
Just my thoughts,
bearlee

Edited to add:

I know some subs are male and some Doms are female. In no way was this post meant to be sexist... all those slashes just make things about impossible to read.  Substitute the sex of your choice, please.




N4SDChastity -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 8:36:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elorin

Oh, you might also remember, when playing, if the sub looks in pain but you dont' want to disturb bliss, in case that's what it is - ask this "Safeword?" and if they nod yes, you stop. If you feel they are so far gone you can't play b/c they can't react, bringing them back by asking "What's your safeword?" until they can answer "Red"...and then say "do you need to use it?" is a good way to ground and let them know you ARE paying attention.
~E



Although I did not mention it (it did not come up as part of the context), this IS something I DO do (hee-heee, *I* said doo-doo, hee-hee).  I may show as a newb, on here, but this isn't my first time on CM.  Not new to the life, or life, for that matter, either.  Been playing, top & bottom, Dom and sub, on two different continents in three different languages, for almost 25 years.  I'm assuming you explained as you did for our "general" edification, not specifically MY edification.  My willingness to learn should not imply a need to be taught.



Lashra -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 9:43:10 AM)

I had a slave many years ago who was the exact same way. I could have cut his penis off with a chainsaw and he wouldn't have said a thing. The truth is some subs cannot utter a safeword if in subspace, also some will not do it because they never want to displease their Owner. You just have to learn to watch them carefully and use your own judgement.

Good Luck
~Lashra



sublizzie -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 10:02:16 AM)

I had it explained to me that using my safeword was required of me as a good submissive. Not that I would be forced to do it but by not using it when I needed to I was disobeying. I ~hate~ being disobedient.

I actually did use my safeword in my very first scene. It wasn't because the scene itself was getting to be too much for me but because of my position I was starting to get faint. I felt bad about using the safeword. I knew, however, that if I did not and ended up fainting the results would be worse.

I prefer to take whatever a Dominant wants to dish out but I will safeword if I need to because that's being obedient to their wishes.



MistressNoName -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 10:08:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: N4SDChastity

One practice I use to use, back when I "played" in Germany, was to cache the "safe" word in how they responded. For instance: Although they were NEVER permitted to tell me "No," for fear of permanently ending our association, if I asked for a particular thing to be done (doesn't matter what, and I'm hoping you guys are able to generalize, here), the expected response was, "Yes, My Prince." If that which I asked wasn't something they wanted to do, but were WILLING to do to please me, the expected answer was, "Only if it pleases you, My Prince." If there was a chance that they were willing to end our relationship because of something I asked of them, and NO frikkin way they'd do it unless I ABSOUTELY insited (the implication being that they WOULD perform or I was through with them), the expected answer was. "NOT unless it pleases you, My Prince." It allowed a free exchange of information while maintaining the D/s dynamic. In this way I was able to define and determine limits without forcing an issue. During play I habitually monitor my pets, visually and verbally. If there is something going on that prevents a sub/slave from responding verbally (ball gag, dental-dam, my d1<k), I generaly use a hankerchief, placed in her hand. If it falls free voluntarily or involuntairly, playtime ends, then and there. Again, I get to find out what the limit is without conflict since, even IF they're trying to "endure" for MY pleasure/favors, involuntairly releasing the hanky lets me know I've hit a HARD limit.

My $0.02


I very much like this method of ascertaining limits. I think it will be especially useful during the training process. I'd love to incorporate this method into my repertoire. Thanks for posting.

MNN



N4SDChastity -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 11:12:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeOwner18
does anyone have any suggestions for these situations?


This post has gone so off track that there is probably no way to bring it back.

I think we all agree that everyone has a different point of view as to why they do or do not use safewords... this wasn't what the OP was about.



I think we were trying, in our own way, to offer suggestions anecdotally.  The unspoken fear is that someone will offer a suggestion that will be taken (or, worse yet, taken out of context), and turn out tremendously bad.  By offering “fables,” if you will, from our own experiences, we provide the OP with a very broad spectrum to experiences/solutions that s/he may pick and choose from as they will.  Tailoring our ways and means to their needs.  Inasmuch as this may be a problem for more than just the OP, by taking this approach, we are generally able to provide a variety of ways to address the problem, possibly suitable to more situations that simply the OP's dilema.

At least, that was MY intent.
 



KnightofMists -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 11:17:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

Can you flesh out this last claim, Knight? It seems to imply that to push someone beyond her limits (if they're there) is to fail her. Is this your contention?



His perception is he is pushing her well beyond her limits and feels she should safeword...  If he is so sure she should safe word.. why is he playing her beyond those limits in the first place?    It's not the pushing beyond the limits that is the failure.. it's knowing that he is there and she should be safewording.. but still keeps going.

It makes me question his percpetion of the limits in the first place... either way he is an idiot.



N4SDChastity -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 11:49:53 AM)

^^No REAL need for name-calling, IMHO.  More likely inexperienced...  either in the life, or life itself.  He at least had the good sense to ASK for help/advice, so that's gotta be worth something on the I-D-10-T scale of 10-1, don't you think?



KnightofMists -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 11:59:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: N4SDChastity

^^No REAL need for name-calling, IMHO.  More likely inexperienced...  either in the life, or life itself.  He at least had the good sense to ASK for help/advice, so that's gotta be worth something on the I-D-10-T scale of 10-1, don't you think?


in experience can be attributed to some things... but some things is just common sense.... which is not so common.

his good sense is only a result of hitting his head against the brick wall he keeps trying to go against.... so is it good sense... or more frustration and his head hurts.



N4SDChastity -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 12:26:55 PM)

Point taken.  I guess he's looking for someone to unlock that simple truth FOR HIM, as opposed to reasoning it out on his own.  Maybe "lazy," or "innatentive" would be a better moniker, for him...



ownedgirlie -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 12:44:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssPassion

There were many other valid points raised but to be honest I don't think one of you in your honest to goodness efforts to post your own stories took time to truly address this matter in the way that is was asked... note the quote from the OP above.
.


Please re-read my post (the first respondant to the OP) before addressing everyone as being unhelpful. My first sentence was a suggestion, as was my last sentence.  The middle part was my personal experience, offered as yet another suggestion, as such an experience was helpful to me.

Thank you.



Elorin -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 12:51:06 PM)

N4SDChastity:
I have no idea who you are, where you are from, or what your experience level is. Even when my responses have been to your posts, my content was intended for the OP who was despairing of getting information from his subs when he wants to push their limits.

I was neither patronizing nor was I speaking down, I was sharing my experiences. And whether you do, or do not do, any of the things I suggested, they are ways the OP can get his subs to view safewords in a more positive light.

I'd recommend that you not take things so personally, particularly when it was you that posted a completely unnecessary "safety warning" to a post of mine. ~winks~ Whether YOU benefit from all info in a post that is "in reply to" you, it's certainly good info to have out there as a resource.

~Ms. Elorin



passionateBBs -> RE: refusing to use safeword (4/8/2007 12:52:17 PM)

i just about threw my safe "item" {hard to call out a safe word gagged} but i could not bring myself to do it...even through the bit of nipple canning...i still didn't do it...it feels almost like defeat if i do...there has only been one time that i have used my safe word...and i tried so hard not to use it...but the bootlace leather whip on the tender lips was just too much....but i am sure that there will be a time again...i think this is something that most of us go through...but then again i don't have much of a clue what i am talking about as it is :)  Happy Easter A/all



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